"Trail markers"

RaijNyu-INGRaijNyu-ING Posts: 143 ✭✭✭

@NianticCasey-ING

Out of curiosity. Is this the new norm regarding "trail markers"? I feel like these numbered directional signs are getting abused very hard at some areas around here. And it's not only there (screenshot area) but also neighbouring towns across a large area.


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Comments

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020

    These are not trail markers.

    Signs with merely a number is for people to create their own route. The writing on there is the region/province

    And the LF signs are for bicycle highways. (Landelijke Fietsroute)


    @NianticCasey-ING is the prerequisite of needing the name of the trail still valid? Can we still consider this as trail markers. those are streetsigns ,and as you can see from this example, are placed on every streetcorner

    If we have this many signs in one town/one street... should't this be rejected for not being visually unique?

    if all these signs get added to the poi database we are talking about 190k signs in Flanders, and this is just the number of signs with just a number.

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Aside from pictures 3 and 6, those are all trail markers.

    The node markers are also trail markers. They guide you from one node to another along a trail. When you reach the end of the trail, you can choose which trail you want to follow next. These trails between the nodes promote exercise just like any other trail.

    The LF routes are not highways. They are long distance trails.

    There are many signs here because it is an area where 3 different trails (1 walking nodes, 1 cycling nodes and 1 cycling long distance) follow the same road. They are located along a river, which is a popular place for cyclists, as there are usually few intersections there.

    Also, Westtoer is not a region. It is the name of the node network.

  • Garfieldfreakje-INGGarfieldfreakje-ING Posts: 218 ✭✭✭

    I follow btw you forgot the walking and bicycle knot points because those are markers to the knots

    People can make their routes from these points

    But at some sites you can also find suggestive routes for the knots

    If i was niantic i would accept the knot points but not the plaques in your picture because those plaques are everywhere (actually not many in cities) but walking and bicycle knotpoints are less common.

    But it would be nice to finally get a straight answer because if i would rate do 20 nominations i get one of those

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020

    These are per definition not trail markers. they don't guide you along a predefined trail. you can make a trail based on these nodes.

    but the nodes itself are not necessarily part of a trail. As you can see most of these are not even nodes but streetsigns showing the way to the node, hence the 5 same signs to node number 96. these are literally on every corner.

    node network is not a name of a trail.

  • DerWelfe2205-PGODerWelfe2205-PGO Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭

    Acceptance criteria: "Must be a physical, tangible, and identifiable place or object"

    That's not the case for a sidewalk but it is the case for a sign.

  • CueBoy-INGCueBoy-ING Posts: 13 ✭✭✭

    Don't know about the sidewalks where you live, but where I live they are very much physical, tangible and identifiable (by the potholes).

    Sarcasm, not easy to recognize when written down.

  • DerWelfe2205-PGODerWelfe2205-PGO Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭

    "Tangible and identifiable" in this context meaning that there needs to be one fixed location where you can "drop a pin on a map" as Casey once put it. Not the case for sidewalks so not a good example. Hiding invalid points behind sarcasm doesn't make them any better.

    I'm not saying that I would accept these signs (at least not Nr. 1,3,6,7 and 11) but I can see why people would under the new 3.1 criteria.

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    how does an arrow to a node promote exercise. a trail may promote it because you would decide in advance you would walk the trail. but an arrow pointing to a node is the equivalent of a generic streetsign pointing the direction to the next town.



  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    I will keep on rejecting these nodes and arrows pointing to nodes.

    Same goes for the same marker at the next crossing. Wayfarer asks me if these are visually unique.

    while it is described differently in the help section. they clearly ask if it's something common.

    I will/may follow the suggested rating overall, but it will fail the visually unique category if it's a situation like the op post


  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes they are, yes they do, and no you can't.

    You can make a route base on these nodes, not a trail. The trails are predefined. A trail starts at a node and ends at the next node. If you create a route starting a node 1, go to node 2, node 3, and back to node 1, you will have followed 3 predefined trails. The trail between node 1 and node 2, the trail between node 2 and node 3 and the trail between node 3 and node 1. The route that you made yourself is not a trail, it is a combination of trails.

    The nodes are the starting and endpoints of the trails. You could see them as trailheads. The markers between the nodes guide you along the trail, and are therefor trailmarkers.

    The route between nodes is not the shortest or fastest route. It is a route created by the tourist office to be a nice route, along quiet roads, along landmarks, etc. The markers are not street signs or directional signs. They guide you along the trail, just like any other trailmarker does. Any other trailmarker also shows you the way to the end of the trail.

    With the 3.1 Wayfarer update, there is no longer any mention that a trail name is required on a trail marker.

    If you do not see that these are trail markers, then you have no idea what these node networks are.

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020

    No it's not predefined in belgium. You can have multiple nodes with the same. Number in the same network.


    Based on how you are explaining this... You clearly don't know what node networks are in belgium. 


    And the new rules clearly state it's up to the reviewer to decide what is important and relevant for the community.

    But of it makes you happy I will approve the submission in the general score and decline for visually unique

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes they are predefined. I am not going to argue that there aren't multiple nodes with the same number in the same network, but if there are, it is very rare and probably accidental. That doesn't change their purpose or anything in this discussion.

    Ofcourse I do, I use them on a regular basis.

    Yep, cycling is the second most popular sport in Belgium, and the government lays out these vast networks for cycling and walking, but they are not important or relevant to the community. Sure... They also do not encourage exercise at all... When you are following these networks, you run into other people doing the same thing all the time when it's not raining. A couple of weeks ago, I walked a route using these nodes of about 2.5 km. I ran into literally hundreds of other people doing the same thing. Not exaggerating. But it's not important or relevant for the community...

    You do you. Luckily Niantic is working on systems to weed out bad reviewers. Let's hope those systems work and we can finally end these silly discussions.

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    lol. like casey said.

    There is nothing interesting about a generic streetsign. it will not learn anything about the community opposed to named trails which are made by tourist ofices.

    You just point to one piece of it. it could encourage people to go out.

    Rejecting certain items doesn't make you a bad reviewer. it is literally what is asked from us.

    it not being the shortest nor easiest route is pure bollocks. In case of bike nodes it takes the streets that go to another place and that are easily accessible. in this case i just clicked on a random spot on the map and behold... i have duplicate numbers. why duplicate because you have a node nr3 at the end and the beginning of the street.

    These paths are clearly not made by the tourist offices so stop making stuff up.


    These are the bike nodes in Belgium and the south of Holland. Each crossing is a node. between these nodes you have arrows pointing to the nodes. Very unique and valuable places... NOT!


    So if you want to call me a bad reviewer because i prefer quality of the portal network over quantity of the poi network so be it.

    At least i'm not a person like you that goes around 5*'ing everything.

    As far as i can see... the only reason you are really defending these nodes is because you use them. That still doesn't make them a named predefined trail.

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    HELL NO...

    yes.

    maybe 1 or 2 signs.. not all signs.


    no.

    yes

  • Garfieldfreakje-INGGarfieldfreakje-ING Posts: 218 ✭✭✭

    Why not the first one is that only for cars or what is that? And also third is quite lame to review with five stars and others at 1* or you accept all the trails or you don't accept any except if there is no footpath what can be the case with those

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    first one is for cars.

    number 2: i would accept. these are educational. They do guide you to cool spots and teach you about the surrounding and they promote going there.

    number 3: for pedestrians or cyclists i may accept 1 or 2 (the most important ones) but definitely not all . i could live with accepting one or two because it's a named trail.

    number 4: nodes... not a named trail.

    number 5: although it's a node... i does encourage you to take a look and possibly make a detour.

    In short... number 2 gets accepted by me. the others (3 and 5) will depend on where and how many there are.


    heck i could have multiple poi surrounding my house... i live on these routes. they just aren't valuable and in most cases are just used to get more poi or get a homestop

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You keep claiming that these node trails are not made by tourist offices. Yet every single one of the ones posted in this thread have "Toerisme Vlaanderen" written on them. Even your own example "Node 76" has "Toerisme Vlaanderen" AND "Toerisme Oost-Vlaanderen" on it. How do you explain that?

    In your picture, how do you get from node 2 to node 3? I would say through the Tramstraat or Hutsepotstraat. Yet you only find "street signs" pointing you to node 3 in those streets, where the trail between node 6 and node 3 passes. Why is that?

    The duplicate nodes 3 in this case are very close together (140m). The tourist office therefor considers them the same node. It is not 2 nodes 3, it is 1 node 3 that is spraid out across 140m. These instances are rare, and change nothing about the fact that these networks promote exercise.

    That map of Flanders is a huge area. If you show a map like that with all the chapels on it, then there are also a lot of chapels.

    Visually unique has a whole other meaning in the guidelines than what is said on the reviewing page:

    Visual Uniqueness

    Does the nomination stand out from its surroundings? Wayspots that are easy to locate and visually distinct from the buildings and objects nearby make high-quality Wayspots and should be rated highly. If you think the nomination looks bland and will be hard to locate, give it a lower rating.

    "Bland" in this context meaning "doesn't stand out"/"merges into the background".

    It is even acknowledged that visually unique is not the correct term. See this bug report thread and Casey's response in it:

    https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/1823/renaming-visually-unique

    This will probably be fixed when Wayfarer 3.4 arrives mid January, when they overhoal the entire reviewing page.

    The guidelines also say that you shouldn't consider nearby wayspots when reviewing a wayspot.

    Should I consider proximity to nearby Wayspots or Wayspot density when analyzing a nomination?

    No. As long as the nomination is not a duplicate of an existing Wayspot, it is eligible to become a Wayspot. Each Niantic app has its own proximity rules to determine whether it will be included in the app.

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    they have promised to fix this for over a year now. as long as it's stil wrong on the page... i will use it as described.

    Toerisme vlaanderen is NOT local or citywide. it's a government department that issues these plaques to promote flanders. the part in between nodes is not considered a trail.

    the map shown was only to show the nodes. this doesn't even account for all the arrows pointing to the note like in the original post. one small street with 3 crossroads means 3 arrows pointing to a node.... not worthy at all.

    If i can't **** if a sign is different from the other sign... it's bland and not distinct enough.

    they even said so about parc signs. 10 indistinctive park signs not far enough apart should be seen as duplicates.


    It's funny how the #acceptall people will always tell others they have to follow the rusel when it comes to this kind of ****... but when it's about prp or other questionable submissions these same people will tell others you should see it as a guide and not as a law.

    you keep falling back on one thing... promotes exercise....


    to conclude this yes/no argument... a quote from casey..

    "And just a final note that personal judgement in the review process is never going to be eliminated, because it’s not the intent of the criteria to tell you what’s interesting and important to your community. So be comfortable with a bit of grey area!"

    my judgement is... nodes are rubbish and not a trail on their own,they can be used in named trails but are not named trails.

    Enjoy your day... it's clear you just want quantity over quality AND niantic isn't going to intervene in this arguement to shed some light on the matter (like the past 2 years).

  • Garfieldfreakje-INGGarfieldfreakje-ING Posts: 218 ✭✭✭

    number 3 you are going to random accept one or two and the others not?

    except if they aren't safely placed that's not very correct in my opinion or you accept them all or you accept none

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020

    seeing how I don't even submit those around my house... it will be none. 😂

    but to elaborate. if it's the first of a series... it's visually unique. the second one in the same street will be hard to distinguish from others..less unique, ...

    Does the nomination stand out from its surroundings? Wayspots that are easy to locate and visually distinct from the buildings and objects nearby make high-quality Wayspots and should be rated highly. If you think the nomination looks bland and will be hard to locate, give it a lower rating.

    once more i will reject them based on visually uniqueness . they can barely be distinguished from nearby objects (read: same trail/node markers)


    I really don't understand why niantic let this get out of hand by removing the other prerequisites. Even Named trails like nr 3 are in abundance in Belgium. My village alone has 279 of these signs... 6 surrounding my house within 50m radius.

    no lets open up another jar of rubbish submissions and let people include nodes and signs pointing to nodes.

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why does it matter if the tourist office is local or regional?

    What does this have to do with #acceptall? Are you accusing me of being #acceptall?

    Yes, promotes exercise. It is 1 of the 3 eligibility criteria.

    Your community does not mean you or your Ingress community. It means the entire community. Just because it is not important to you, doesn't mean that is not important to a significant part of your community.

    I can tell from your later response that you know these are entirely within current criteria, and you reject them just because you don't like them. Grasping at any straw you can find to justify yourself.

  • LuDuc-INGLuDuc-ING Posts: 1 ✭✭

    Hey guys, what about nodes with names ? In Walloon Brabant the main nodes have the name of the neighborhood they are in. (I agree we should maybe not accept every direction signe but at least the main nodes)


  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They promote exercise, so they are eligible. You still have to check if they meet all acceptance criteria and no rejection criteria.

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    these are not trails... these are nodes. a trail is a predefined course that will take you back to the starting point of your walk.

    in this case the name is the direction they will take you. still doesn't make it a named trail.

  • thegame1745-INGthegame1745-ING Posts: 131 ✭✭✭

    these are not within the rules... these are not trails.... they may promote exercise but that's about it. a trail brings you back to your starting point without you having to plot a route. but i don't expect more from someone like you who has requested 40% prp stuff... in your area of play.


    My bed promotes exercise, social gathering and exploration... and if it's in an appartment building it's an ok portal too?

    Because it sure meets the acceptance criteria and no rejection criteria.

    trails are within the criteria... nodes are not.

    And i myself see myself as part of the community and deem these not good. (so do many other reviewers) so in the spirit of this being a grey area... i will reject ALL nodes

  • PoMaQue-PGOPoMaQue-PGO Posts: 252 ✭✭✭✭

    @thegame1745-ING and myself have a long history of debating these and I regularly ask Niantic to clarify and provide clear instructions on these.

    But on the topic of nodes/knooppunten, we agree. Actual Trails should have a fixed route from A to Z to A again and have been designed to guide you through specific areas, significant buildings etc.

    Nodes are part of a network, where everyone can invent their routes. They could travel from Node 1 to Node 2 over a distance of 20m and say "This is now the "Carrot Trail"."

    The words on them are not Trail names, but an indication of the area the node is in.

    The comments made earlier about having a tangible object, is obviously to avoid people simply nominating a dirt road and declaring it a path. It needs a sign to prove it is actually a Trail - and here I think it is still best to have the Trail's name on them, or you might nominate the same wooden sign for 20 different "Trails" (even building it yourself, as they do in Morlanwez 🤣). Trail Signs with an official name on them can always be looked up on the internet - generic wooden arrow signs mean nothing.

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Where did you get the idea that trails need to end at their starting point? That is simply not true. What you are refering to is loop trails, which are a type of trails, but certainly not the only type.

    In fact, before the 3.1 criteria update, the Wayfarer guidelines had an image of a trail marker as an example of an eligible wayspot. It had Stream Trail and Eucalyptus Trail on it. These trails are located here: https://www.google.be/maps/place/Eucalyptus+Trail,+Tustin,+CA+92705,+Verenigde+Staten/@37.8261551,-122.1776483,18z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x80dcdb11a889cccd:0x5a0ddb59d8b3f205!8m2!3d33.7601026!4d-117.7696207

    You can find info on these trails here:

    https://www.hikingproject.com/trail/7020236/stream-trail

    https://www.hikingproject.com/trail/7024841/eucalyptus-trail

    As you can see, these are not loop trails.

    As I said before, you can create your own route, but you follow predefined trails to do so. Otherwise, what is the point of these trails, if you can just walk wherever you want?

    There is no requirement for a trail to have a name in the 3.1 criteria. These node trails serve the exact same purpose as a named trail does.

    These nodes and their trails can also be looked up easily on the internet.

  • PoMaQue-PGOPoMaQue-PGO Posts: 252 ✭✭✭✭

    OK for the Loop thing, but nodes are not part of a trail, but of a network of nodes.

    "What is the point of these trails?" - they are not trails, they have no fixed path to follow.

    Named trails point you in 1 direction: the next marker, nodes point you to any node in the area.

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