Improving the system: Resend a rejected nomination from the Wayfarer website

WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭✭✭

General ideas described in https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/15568/improving-the-system

Ability to send again a nomination that has been rejected.

If you use Ingress and are within 25 Km of the nomination you can send it using a remote nomination, but this should be simpler and available for every one. It would use a nomination slot like any other nomination. In order to use it you would go to the rejected nomination in Wayfarer and it would have a button "Renominate", that would open a dialog explaining that it will use one of your nomination slots, allow you to edit the texts (title, description, supporting info) and then send again.

Goal: Equal opportunities for Ingress and Pokémon Go, renominate a rejected candidate without traveling back to that location.

Improving the system: Resend a rejected nomination from the Wayfarer website 44 votes

Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one
70%
LexTolkien-PGOGendgi-PGOStultusz-INGTurckoPT-INGDerWelfe2205-PGOGazzas89-PGOWheelTrekker-INGSilverPT-PGOikaros02-INGliquorlord-INGHankWolfman-PGOTWVer-ING4Pro4IV-PGOStephyypooke-INGXeZar66-INGLukeAllStars-INGGregoriusGR-PGOKwyjiboHan-PGOLechu1730-PGOAr3oN-PGO 31 votes
No, (please explain why you don't agree)
27%
Rodensteiner-PGOGearGlider-INGTheisman-INGHaramDingo-INGPkmnTrainerJ-INGHosette-INGWandHerring-PGOThor3381-ING52cucumbers-INGholdthebeer-INGorpheus80-INGPollaryss-PGO 12 votes
I don't care
2%
oscarc1-ING 1 vote

Comments

  • LukeAllStars-INGLukeAllStars-ING Posts: 4,625 Ambassador
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    It would be great, however this sentence from the mail of rejected nominations it speaking against it:

    Note that we will not be overturning this decision. If you believe your New Portal nomination should have been accepted, we suggest re-submitting the Portal candidate after improving the photo


    Also, PGO suggests changing the text/photo.


    Maybe this could lead to unnecessary garbage spam.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    Nope, we already get people submitting the same ineligible things using the same details again and again and again.

    It would make it far to easy to just repeatedly spam submit a poor nomination again and again and again

  • Rodensteiner-PGORodensteiner-PGO Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    No, because often the submission that was rejected could go thru with better photos.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 3,534 Ambassador
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    I've never once submitted the same exact nomination (photo & text) twice, but I do know people will have. I've only had a few nominations rejected that I've re-submitted and had pass. I know having a rejected nomination doesn't mean anything (actually at one time Casey did say they were looking into rewarding people with strong nomination history) but it's a bit of a sting to see a nomination rejected that "should" have been approved on my list.

    I'd personally appreciate some way to resubmit a nomination or be able to change a "rejection" to an "actually this was later approved."

    If this was further developed by Niantic, I share similar concerns as @Theisman-ING of somebody just spamming the same thing (not that they can't already). If anything makes it easier to make nominations we also need more Niantic involvement to punish bad players.

  • Lechu1730-PGOLechu1730-PGO Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    I don't think being able to renominate would increase garbage. Someone submitting their TV would have it available for nominating it again as many times as they want while someone's nomination of a place they won't return soon could have a second chance if only needs improvement on the text or better luck with the batch of reviewers that evaluate it.

  • PkmnTrainerJ-INGPkmnTrainerJ-ING Posts: 5,119 Ambassador
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    A while back before there was a Wayfarer forum I suggested this on the Ingress forums.

    I am now inclined to agree with the comment on there by @Perringaiden-ING

    That would simply result in every portal being resubmitted time and time again, because reviewers are "always wrong".

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    Those that have voted "No", is that taking into account that this is already possible for the Ingress players?

    Haven't you ever resubmited any nomination from your home after getting a rejection mail?

  • sophielab-INGsophielab-ING Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭

    I have submitted about half the things I've taken pictures from home normally. I have a bunch of withdrawn things where I submitted on site but the next day decided against it. I strongly suspect I'm probably in the minority where remote nominations generally means I submit less not more because I change my mind after thinking about it at home.


    I did look through the not accepted, I have much better luck with new pictures. Even if someone can submit remotely through Ingress, I would suggest taking a bunch of different ones while there and using different ones on resubmission.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    Yeah, if I nominate anything I take several pictures and then I can switch between them at home for each (re)nomination.

    Why can't Pokemon Go players enjoy that? Is there some philosophical reason why it's bad that they can renominate as the Ingress players do?

  • sophielab-INGsophielab-ING Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭

    They've stated remote submission in pokemon go is coming. It will probably come after most people have submitted most of the truly must haves. The stuff I'm doing now is not very important to me but appears to qualify so I nominated. I do remember running out of car snapping a picture real quick and racing back to car when super cold with frostbite warnings back when submissions came back for Ingress. I don't anything I'd do that for now.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 3,469 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    Definitely not, unless the submission has been improved by the submitter. If it failed the first time there's probably (but not always, admittedly) a good reason for that. The reason may be the quality of the thing being submitted, or it may bet he quality of the submitter's work in presenting it. There's no reason to clog up the review system with doing the same thing and expecting different results.

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agree with Hosette.

  • holdthebeer-INGholdthebeer-ING Posts: 199 ✭✭✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    Submit remotely in all games - yes. Could be even better, the current ingress solution is not easy to use in obscured areas or locations with bad satellite picture. I'd like to have a button to save my current location as a draft for nomination, then submit the rest from home.

    Re-submit with one click of a button - no, should not be that easy. Nomination needs to be improved, not spammed.

  • Pollaryss-PGOPollaryss-PGO Posts: 42 ✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    I'm afraid that possibility would soon be abused. If it was possible to resend the same nomination from home, why wouldn't people just "click the button" to give it one more try "just in case it goes through this time" ? If you have to re-do everything (go on site, take the picture...) I think you're more likely to think about it twice and to take care of how you present your submission.

    However, I'm in favor of a possibility to submit remotely after saving a draft.

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,725 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    I think I've done justice with my nominations the first time around, photos are fine, description and supporting statement is ok, but when you get garbage reviewers who one star a tennis court for cultural significance or decide that your playground has libiduous activity, then that's the chance gone.

    Yes, do renominate with slight changes and additions/improvements to the nomination itself, but not exactly using the same data (i.e. location for location mismatch, or if something is rejected due to low quality photo because it genuinely has a low quality photo, it's not worth having it renominated). If distance is really a big deal (which most of the time actually is), then that aspect of being able to submit nominations remotely should be addressed instead. Why is it 25km now when it used to be infinite? At least give seasoned nominators a distance increase.

  • Lechu1730-PGOLechu1730-PGO Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    There are places where I'm not going to return for quite some time that have PoIs which deserve to be wayspots and if they're wrongly rejected I might not have the chance to renominate, do it again from the rejected one would be great. Nevertheless I think in order to prevent spamming that one would need to use an upgrade to take them out of the rejection pile (and a second one if you want to actually upgrade it).

  • KwyjiboHan-PGOKwyjiboHan-PGO Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    It's quite obvious from my and others experience, that lots of rejections are because the reviewers were awful.

    I'd be happy to resubmit previously rejected submissions, particularly if I could edit the descriptions/supporting info.

  • Thor3381-INGThor3381-ING Posts: 220 ✭✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    No, there are way more awful submissions than there are awful rejections.

    A majority of nominations is bad, if these players can just hit the resubmit button, they will do it.

    Unless it works as Lechu described, resubmit button costs you an upgrade.

    If it would be possible to resubmit (costing an upgrade) it should also be limited to 1 resubmit per nomination.

    Things that were marked as abuse should not have the button (living room pics for example)

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    I see that the fear of repeated abuse is a common topic.

    Certainly I like the proposal by @Lechu1730-PGO that reusing a rejected nomination should cost an upgrade. As soon as that's added to the requirements to resend a nomination I think that the abuse would go away. Who would burn an upgrade to send again a rejected nomination if they can go to that location and submit again "for free"? and Ingress players don't even need that, they can take the existing photos and submit straight from Ingress without using an upgrade, so this option would remain useful for Pokemon players and in the case of Ingress players when the nomination is further away than 25 Km.

    I also liked the comment by @Pollaryss-PGO about saving a draft, and it's an idea that could turn into a very interesting proposal if more people find it interesting:

    At the start of the nomination process we could get an option "Save candidate location draft", it would ask us for a name and told us to take several pictures of the PoI as well as supporting photos. The system stores just the location and the proposed name.

    In Wayfarer we would get a new section "Drafts" that shows us all of our pending drafts (no limit), there we can add the photos, add title, description, supporting text, ... check that everything is OK and the send it using one nomination as usual.

    That would allow us to easily keep track of the nominations that we want to send in the future without worries that at the moment we don't have any slot available. It would help also with those locations that have bad mobile signal so it's possible to open the game and move around but the upload of photos fails, as well as those users whose apps crash when they try to take a picture and can't nominate anything at all. It wouldn't allow abuse because we would still be restricted by our nomination slots, and it could help to improve the quality of nominations as people would have more time to check which is the best photo and do any additional research on the PoI as well as ask for advice before sending the nomination.

    Is this a valuable idea for anyone else?

  • GearGlider-INGGearGlider-ING Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2021
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    Letting people resend rejected nominations would lead to people not improving them if they’re eligible, and clogging the system even worse if they’re not.

    Not to mention if they submitted something while on vacation, or are no longer living there or smtn. Now they’re clogging a review area that doesn’t effect their times at all, and they can’t go back to confirm the nomination actually still exists.

    Pokemon GO players should be allowed to upload from their gallery (I belive Niantic said they were working on this) and from farther distances away but being able to submit from wayfarer instead of the app just encourages spamming the same ineligible nominations.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    Are you opposed even if it would cost an upgrade?

    Why would someone send again a nomination using both a nomination slot and an upgrade without trying to improve anything?

  • GearGlider-INGGearGlider-ING Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2021
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    Maybe I’d be more okay with it if it cost the equivalent of an upgrade, cause that could more than equal out the reviews it would take to put it back through, but I still dislike the idea of a nominator not taking better photos or revisiting the area to confirm the object is still there, maybe taking a photosphere to help reviewers, etc.

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,559 Ambassador

    Not the exact same portal, no. That's not possible. I generally nominate in the app, and only if I make the extra effort to take external saved photos for candidate and supporting area can I resubmit from home (if within range to start with). I have to retype the portal name, description, supporting detail, relocate the object on the map - all manual processes. If my original candidate was rejected I do my utmost to improve upon what was entered previously. Most times I just go back and submit again onsite. The only reason I really submit anything from a distance away is poor cell reception - I do a lot of rural trails and such and in that case I take the photos, pin my location, and drive to a place with maybe some decent wifi to batch-submit.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    Taking better photos would certainly help in several situations and it's up to the nominator if they want to burn an upgrade using bad photos, but I don't expect that something that has been nominated a few weeks ago is suddenly gone. What kind of wayspot are they nominating that it can be removed so easily? In the same way, how can you be sure while you review a nomination that it's still there and it hasn't been removed in the mean time?

  • GearGlider-INGGearGlider-ING Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, (please explain why you don't agree)

    All excellent points. This is mostly from my own experience where a LFL or Marker in a park that was rejected a few times, I go back to renominates and they were either removed by the park or destroyed by bad weather or some other unfortunate event. The reviewing system isn’t perfect by any means, and having to use Google maps instead of being able to verify is person has its advantages and drawbacks, but ideally the nominator is being honest about the location and existence of the nomination when they submit it.

    There wouldn’t really need to be a reason to have the suggestion from the above poll if reviewers did a better job at knowing the criteria, so I’d rather not have a system like the above in place if there comes a point where reviewer education is better, since it would then only make it easier to resubmit poor nominations.

    Though per your suggestion above, if it costs them an upgrade, I would have less reservations about it.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, allow us to send a nomination using the data of a rejected one

    Yes, with perfect reviewers this suggestion wouldn't be necessary. And in a perfect system the comments from reviewers would be sent back to the nominator. We all know that the last bit won't ever happen, with regards to improving reviewers my current proposal for an improvement is https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/15574/improving-the-system-appeal-one-rejection-reason but it has a 40% rejection at the moment.

    People usually have an inertia to go on as usual, we know how the system works, we know that it has several pitfalls and we know how to mostly avoid them.

    Not everybody has that knowledge, and if we can find ways to improve the system it would mean that more people take part in Wayfarer, no just sending nominations, but doing reviews and hopefully both with better quality.

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