Rural Named Public Footpaths ... not eligible?

This got very quickly struck down as a nomination as it "does not meet acceptance criteria".

This is in a rural spot with no stops anywhere nearby. It is a Public Footpath trailhead marker with a named location. I even put in the description about the walk and the destination.

Am I missing something? Does this not qualify under "A great place for exploration" and "A great place for exercise" ? It's unique in the sense that there is no other marker to Lune's Bridge. (If every generic public footpath sign or marker was nominated I realise it could be a different story).

Any advice would be much appreciated.

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Comments

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw this and voted "no". It is a "generic" public footpath marker and signpost. It's not a "trailhead". Basic public footpaths like this do not qualify as "named trails" and wooden "Public footpath" marker posts like this are very common. If there was a plaque or sign for a recognised "named trail" then that would be a whole different matter.

    And yes, every other generic public footpath sign has been nominated, I see 100s of them in my review screen.

  • Maxyme99-PGOMaxyme99-PGO Posts: 954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Please show us full screenshot of your nomination (with both photos, all text, location and screenshot of rejection mail), so we can see what exactly reviewers saw on your nomination.

    Did you get any other rejection reasons? Is there streetview on this location?

    Trail markers can be really hard to accept in some places, sometimes it takes more than one try to get them accepted. I'm not sure how about this one, but some trail markers need really good text and photos to be accepted, many reviewers are picky while review. As you're living in rural area, I think this nomination have some chance of being accepted, but for some reviewers it migh just looks like something not that great to nominate.

    I think maybe doing main photo on a bit different angle so text will be more visible would be a good idea too, as it's pretty old and word "footpath" it's a bit hard to read on your screenshot.

    Maybe some other people will also have some good advices, but I think it would be good if we could see your full nomination :)

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No no no no

    This absolutely, most definitely, 100% should NOT be resubmited, it is nothing but a generic footpath sign.

    To even remotely suggest otherwise or imply that this submission is even marginally eligible is totally and utterly wrong.

  • Maxyme99-PGOMaxyme99-PGO Posts: 954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok, if you say so :) I'm not from this country, so for me it's not generic footpath sign, they look a bit different in my location, so my advice might be wrong. That's why I wrote that maybe someone give better advice. And when I posted I didn't saw sogNinjaman-ING post too, so I didn't saw his comments about him getting it to review and seeing many similiar POIs near it.

    I couldn't see location of this place, but for really rural area without many POIs we are asked to be a bit lenient on reviewing nominations, that's why I considered it - not as 5* but as a 3* if there really isn't any POIs in this location. As there is more POIs (and some are similiar to it), then I also think it's not really a good nomination. Something else in this area might be better choice to nominate.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With all due respect you're not from the UK so you don't know the type of signs we have. This is a totally generic footpath sign

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Again no.

    Being lenient in rural areas does not = generic mass produced objects being given a pass.

    It still doesn't meet criteria and is a 1* candidate

  • PkmnTrainerJ-INGPkmnTrainerJ-ING Posts: 5,058 Ambassador
    edited April 2021

    It’s still a public footpath sign. Whether it’s made of wood or metal or plastic, it still doesn’t meet any acceptance criteria.

    I do note, you say it goes to a Grade II listed bridge, so try that bridge with enough info and you’ll likely get that.

  • NexusJam-PGONexusJam-PGO Posts: 13 ✭✭


    I'm struggling to understand the logic here.

    Yes its true that there are many "generic" Public Footpath signs made of wood or metal. However this sign is totally unique with "Lune's Bridge". There is no other sign that I know of that exists like this?

    There's an interesting bridge at the other end which has now been accepted but how can the start of the trail not be allowable?

    How can it be that every identical King George postbox is allowable but this is not?

    And one last point. I'm sure I read that Niantic clarified on a recent AMA that trails are no longer required to be named. If it said "Public Footpath - Lunes Bridge Trail" then it would be accepted under old guidance and suddenly not generic?

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Because it is NOT a trail.

    What you've submitted is a footpath sign with a destination on it, not a trail.

    You've submitted the pedestrian version of a road sign with the name of the next town on it.

    Its nothing but a generic footpath sign, it is not a trail marker, trail head or anything else but a footpath sign.

    Im not sure how much clearer I need to be

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,542 Ambassador

    What is the difference between a footpath and a trail? As a visitor to the area, I would think of that as a trail to an interesting location and I would appreciate there being a POI in game to identify it. POI are supposed to help identify places to visitors.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Roughly speaking, A trail is a set route from place A to place B, with trail markers highlighting the route.

    A footpath is just what it sounds like, a path you walk on, you have no set route you are following.

    While a trail may use part (or all) of a specific footpath it doesn't mean that every footpath is a designated trail.

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,542 Ambassador
    edited April 2021

    @Theisman-ING "you have no set route you are following"

    By that definition, I think this is much more than a footpath. I am following this route specifically to get to a location - the bridge - the place the directional sign tells me to go. If I want to get to Lune's Bridge, this is the trail or path I need to follow to get there. I can't just happen upon the bridge by walking any other route.

    Forget that it's a mass produced sign. The sign marks the path. The path is the POI. This is the same way as a scenic viewpoint is only eligible if there's a sign to say it's a scenic viewpoint. But we aren't saying the sign is the POI. The sign is just proof of the POI.

    The fact that these are common in your country should not be an argument against them being valid POI. Tennis courts and baseball fields are very common in America. Playgrounds are common and are mass produced objects. But the purpose they serve is to get people outside and exploring the area or engaging in sport. If these signs signify a good place to take a walk, either aimlessly or to a specific site, they are accomplishing Niantic's mission to get people outside, exercising and exploring their community. I see these as much more interesting POI than dumb walking tracks that just go round and round in a circle and those are eligible.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SeaprincessHNB-PGO

    No, you would be following a destination sign, making up your own "trail"

    Its a path sign with a location on it, it's not highlighting a trail, it's saying if you go this way you'll find a bridge.

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,542 Ambassador

    @Theisman-ING @NexusJam-PGO

    Sorry, I whole heartedly disagree with you on this after just a cursory web search to figure out why you're being so stubborn about this. What I've found is that these Public Footpaths are special routes protected BY THE GOVERNMENT and have a very special legacy.

    "In England and Wales a public footpath is a path on which the public have a legally protected right to travel on foot and in some areas public footpaths form a dense network of short paths. It is probable that most footpaths in the countryside are hundreds of years old. The majority of footpaths are shown on Ordnance Survey 1:25,000 and 1:50,000 maps."

    https://www.afar.com/magazine/how-to-find-and-protect-public-hiking-trails-in-england

    We don't have anything like this in the US. These are a treasure that you should absolutely be highlighting as POI.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SeaprincessHNB-PGO , its not being stubborn, there is a difference between a trail and footpath that you still fail to comprehend despite your quick Google search and probable use of Wikipedia.

    The fact that you consider these sign posts treasures truly shows how little you know of the UK and its footpaths.

    It is most definitely NOT a trail marker, please i implore you to do more research before commenting again, as the treasures comment is frankly ridiculous

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,542 Ambassador
    edited April 2021

    Oi. It's not the actual sign that is a treasure. It is what the sign highlights that is a treasure. I'm not the one who thinks so. It is other citizens of your own country who are imploring people to get these registered on local surveys so that they are not lost. If they fall off the survey maps, these footpaths will no longer be protected and can be blocked so people can't access them.

    I genuinely do not understand how you can't see that these legally protected footpaths (not the freaking signs) 100% align with Niantic goals to get people outside exercising and exploring their community. And anything that meets those goals is a good POI. The signs are simply how you prove that the footpath exists where you say it does.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A footpath, any footpath, legally protected or not, can be used for exploration and exercise. By your logic that means any path as long as it has a destination sign is a good POI.

    Funny enough that isn't the case.

    I have no idea why you think something being legally protected seems to make it eligible as a POI, but it doesn't.

    The fact that people don't want footpaths lost to time is a noble endeavor, it still doesn't make them anything other than a generic path and unworthy as a POI.

  • NexusJam-PGONexusJam-PGO Posts: 13 ✭✭

    In all but name, this is most certainly a trail. It's not made up as the route is marked out on OS Maps.

    Yes, there is a start point and a destination but there's a set route inbetween!

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2021

    That's a similar sort of argument to "The submission is a listed / historic building, so it must be accepted", which we all know is not the case.

    In this case, we are back once more to the never-ending "trail marker" discussion. As far as I can tell from looking at accepted Waypoints and from discussions in a UK based group, the general concensus of UK reviewers is that signs that only say "Public Footpath / Public Bridleway / Permissive Path" are far too common, mass produced and generic to qualify as a Waypoint. Like all things, there are a few that got through, but it is usual to reject these. With some footpaths, every time it crosses a hedgerow there is another identical marker in place.

    In England and Wales there are estimated to be 140,000 miles (225,000km) of public rights of way, consisting mainly of footpaths, but including bridleways and other types of byways. The figure for Scotland is estimated to be 9,300 miles (15,000km) - BBC News Article. Assuming that there are is at least 1 "Public Footpath" sign on the trail per mile (and there are usually a lot more), thats at least 298K potential "public footpath" signs to be submitted. That's certainly at the "generic, mass produced" level.

    Now, it there was any sort of "named trail" marker on that post, thats a different matter.

  • KetaSkooter-INGKetaSkooter-ING Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2021

    This sounds very closely related to the mile markers on trails as waypoints debate. Usually boils down to reviewer attitude with how many points are already in game nearby.

    I zoomed in on the Alston area and searched for Foot Path - 28 hits, Trail - 615 hits. bridge - 727 hits, Church - over 1,000, Playground - 486.

    I think you guys have a bridge problem more than a trail problem

    Post edited by KetaSkooter-ING on
  • KetaSkooter-INGKetaSkooter-ING Posts: 177 ✭✭✭

    Being lenient in rural areas does mean giving normal rejections a pass. If it doesn't then there's nothing to be lenient on.

  • silverkali-INGsilverkali-ING Posts: 92 ✭✭✭

    A public footpath is not a named trail. If it was a named trail, even the OS maps would name it as such.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No it doesn't

    If a candidate is not worthy and a 1* rejection , then its trash and doesnt deserve leniency.

    If however its something that would be a 2* or 3* candidate then it is not awful, but a borderline (or just under submission), then leniency should be applied for rural areas.

  • KetaSkooter-INGKetaSkooter-ING Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2021

    I guess we differ on that point then, I view everything as yes/no so I either lead with a 1,4, or 5* and never use 2 or 3 unless i'm trying to reject without getting a cooldown. I view the "Does not seem to be a great place of exploration, place for exercise, or place to be social. The object is mass-produced, generic, or not visually unique or interesting." as the area we can be lenient on for rural

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So what you are saying is a POI, is either a reject, really great or an amazing instant accept ?

    Then sorry but I can't agree with your method of reviewing at all.

  • NexusJam-PGONexusJam-PGO Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited April 2021

    @Theisman-ING @KetaSkooter-ING @sogNinjaman-ING @SeaprincessHNB-PGO

    Thanks for all your thoughts.

    I've actually been mapping out Public Footpath signs locally and making a note of the totally generic ones and the ones that also include a placename/POI. (Don't worry I won't submit them😁)

    While I realise they won't be accepted under the interpretation of the current guidelines, it might be interesting to see just how many there are and whether it would make a big difference if some of the ones marking a path to an interesting location were eligible in the future.

    I do agree that the majority are ineligible "trash", however there are still gems out there here in the Lake District and Yorkshire Dales - little-known paths and trails to interesting locations - many of which are natural features such as fells and waterfalls without that would be ineligible as a Waypoint in their own right. Maybe something for a future AMA.

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,542 Ambassador

    You're going to need to get onboard because Niantic employees have been saying for a while that they are moving towards a Yes/No system instead of the current 5 star system.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2021


    When Niantic make changes and move to a yes no system then that is exactly how I will reveiw. Until that happens I will continue to review in the manner that we are currently told to.

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