Niantics Support Mess

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  • Roli112-PGORoli112-PGO Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You are completely mistaken, this is the header in the page my screenshot is from...


  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh, that's correct, I missed that. So I will drop the half sentence with "Please choose xy", but the rest of the supporting text edits is nethertheless not covered, since Niantic has a fluffy wording for "other type of abuse" at the same page:

    Bringing an important castle to PoGo withthe help of an unimportant short-range-edit of an area-ish portal of lower quality, or moving a 30m high monument from one of its corners to another, to allow that monument to become a gym instead of a small boring generic infoboard about meadow orchards .... this creates a more intresting, family friendly, and accurate representation of the real-world.

    So it's in fact, what Niantic wants - higher quality of their database and their ingame representation.

  • Roli112-PGORoli112-PGO Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems like you are still trying to jump hoops to get your way... heres another instance of Casey saying to report as abuse post 3.1

    https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/comment/65052/#Comment_65052

  • saarstahl-INGsaarstahl-ING Posts: 69 ✭✭✭

    Jeder Wayfarer denkt ja von sich, dass er die Bewertungskriterien kennt. Und wenn dann jemand die Kriterien erklärt, kommt das oft als besserwisserisch und oberlehrerhaft rüber.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for clarifying, but there are nethertheless 3 complexes of questions left.


    First: The technical issues

    • When the edits are the problem, why does the support Mail only talk about nominations in the first paragraph? that's totally misleading....
    • Why was my PGO-Acc effected and the ING-Acc not? All the stuff, that you declared to be abuse, happened with my ING-Acc, and both accounts have different wayfarer accounts and different login methods.
    • Looking at, what the ban did to my PGO-Acc: why does the mail say, that I shall re-review the criteria, when the wayfarer-acces and so the access to the criteria and help pages is denied? Why can I still nominate (did that at saturday with PGO too) and edit (?) when the accusation is about abuse while moninating/editing?


    Second: What was the trigger of that ban mail?

    Since this whole thread is and was about to identify, what may be the trigger of that mail, I guess I found it. @NianticGiffard it seems, that you picked the two most recent examples, but neither the "Neptun"- nor the "Türkschacht"-edit could have been the trigger of that mail. The Neptun edit was accepted weeks ago, and Türkschacht was my attempt to try, whether my ING-Acc is able to edit right after that strange mail. So for me there was nethertheless the question, what the trigger event should have been, since I had no plausible rejection mail (neither for any edit rejection nor any rejection of a nomination with fitting rejection reasons) from the last weeks in my mailbox, that could provide at least a far fetched explanation for anything in here.

    Few hours ago your staff wiped out all my pending edits without reviewing them, since evrything got simply rejected. I'm sure we found the edit with the trigger event:

    I had a very old edit, that intended to remove that player name from that description and an edit to change the titles abbreviation Bhf to Bahnhof. No supporting text edit or something else.

    This was the only pending edit that could have caused your staff actions. So most likely someone reported/flagged that review, because they assumed, that the player name shall be introduced to the portal, and not removed. So most likely this is the trigger event of your staff's actions.

    The only other explanation, that really depends on my own faults, would be with a huge delay, so I don't guess its this way. The Neptun example would be the latest. It was submitted May 1st and done May 13th. So more than two weeks delay for your staff actions, that's unlikely. Further it should be good style in your backend, that flagged reviews cant be accepted before your staff takes a lokk at that stuff. Other edits are months back ....

    So if I'm right (and I'm 99.99% sure) and the edit with removing the player name is the trigger event, than your staff action is very, very poor. Neither did your staff member(s) figure out, that I didnt introduce the playername to the description, nor did they manage to hit the correct game account. One could say, that the staff member could have found the other edits like the Neptun-edit while investigating, but if that investigation would have been only a bit thoroughly, than the description of that portal would be without a playername now.


    So @NianticGiffard , yes, I did give explanations and instructions in supporting text edits, and that may validate a ban, that I would accept. But nethertheless not a single of these edits should have caused this staff action and that exact ban. So your statement, that validates that ban, appears to be only a pretense afterwards. The most likely trigger event is obviously not my fault - it's a player named m4rt3n.

    So please investigate about the work of your staff member too. If I'm right, then this is by far not the first decision, where your staff took actions againtst the person, that tries to undo an abusive action, and not the person causing the situation.

    Remember the example of @Brukterra-PGO : https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/8267/abuse-nianticcasey-please-help#latest

    (same here: he tried to undo few abusive edits of another person, then detected, that that happened to a very huge amount of portals, and then mass reported it in the appeal section because he was simply overchallenged with the situation - and your staff gave him a strike)


    Second: What is in your oppinion the right way to deal with stuff like the Neptun example?

    • It is an infoboard about a planet, so there are 9 of them (since the trail is older than Plutos degradation to being classified as planetoid) for evry planet spread over 6(?)km. They all have an individual side about the specific planet, and all of the boards have a common backside with a few information about the trail and who created it (the local planetarium and others)
    • My problem with the old name: "Planetenscheibe im Stadtpark" (literally: planetary disc in the park) - a planetary disc is a disc of debris and dust around a star, where planets form. Our planetary system is far beyond that stage. We have only a few remnants of that stage left - the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, and the Kuiper belt at the rim of our planetary system.
    • The problem of the reviewers: They only see the highest ranked picture, that shows the backside. They see, that the object is a spinnable disc, they see, that the backside of the disc talks about astronomy stuff, but Neptun is not mentioned. So planetary disc may appear to be the best fitting title for the reviewers...
    • I can't change the main picture, since it has 3 likes. I voted on a better picture,but can't change it:

    So giving that information as a tl;dr in a supporting text edit was the obvious solution for me to solve this. How shall that else be done? A lengthy forum post in the appeal section, only for such a small sophisticated point?

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dass Leute aus diesem Grund eine Nomination abgelehnt haben, das hab ich aber erstmals gehört seit PoGo auch bewerten darf. Kann ich gut an dem Wanderwegstext festmachen: auf die Art des Support-Textes bin ich durch lange Zeit mit try-and-error gekommen, bis ich mal Erfolg hatte. Der letzte Funke war dann die Englische Variante zu nehmen, damit die Tschechen und Polen es auch verstehen. Mit so ner Art TSupport-ext ging zu OPR-Zeiten dann plötzlich mit geschätzter 90% Chance eine Wanderwegseinreichung plötzlich durch. Fand ich voll gut, wie das damals geklappt hat. Ich würde da auch niemandem einen Vorwurf machen, der vorher WWWs abgelehnt hat, etwas nicht zu wissen, aber wenn man die Kriterien auf dem silbertablett serviert bekommt, sollte man da auch offen sein, und nicht auf Bauchgefühl oder Meinung beharren.

    Die ablehnende Haltung ggn derartige Support-Texte hab ich dann erst mit der Freischaltung der PoGo-Bewerter erlebt, wo Wanderwegweiser anfang absolut gar nciht durchgingen, egal was man gemacht hat. Und bis heute ist das auch nur ganz langsam besser geworden .....

  • saarstahl-INGsaarstahl-ING Posts: 69 ✭✭✭

    I can't change the main picture, since it has 3 likes.

    If you have a key, you can give it to other players to upvote the Neptun picture.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,475 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Raachermannl-ING I don't think you're going to get an answer as to what the trigger was.

    My guess is that someone reported one or more of your edits as abuse and they eventually got around to reviewing. When they concluded that the reported case was abuse they then looked to see if it was an isolated incident or part of a larger pattern. This was standard behavior for me when I was investigating fraud and abuse in other contexts.

    I would further speculate that someone who did this just once might get a warning, while someone who showed a pattern of doing it would receive a harsher punishment.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fully agree.

    Only want to add a few things:

    If I remember correctly there was a statement (most likely by Andrew Krug and from long time ago, a bit after introducing supporting picture and text to nominations), that adding supporting pictures for location edits would be on Nia's to-do-list. Never heard about an update, and obviously nothing happened ....

    This would make nearly all my "abusive" description edits fully obsolete. Easy thing for location corrections of POIs without degrees of freedom, that are obscured by their surroundings, to their legit location. Even the Neptun example could be solved with a picture of the intresting side of the spinnable thing.


    So the only thing, that would be left, are the edits for area-ish POIs that shall get a better within their legit area. The second argument (after speeding up the reviewing process) for using the open statements about, what additional pokestops/gyms could appear because of that location edit, is the personal overview. Edits often take a very long time. Their reviewing timescale is often different than the local timescale for new nominations. So a list with pending edits could be part in wayfarer, right next to the lsit of the own nominations .....

    This would prevent also the famous point clouds (like this sarcastic telegram sticker shows):

    (translation: please move to the left side)

  • ElRond71-INGElRond71-ING Posts: 9 ✭✭

    Hi everyone!

    Just as @Raachermannl-ING , I received the following e-mail:

    "AlvynJune 02, 2021, 06:40 +0000Hello Agent,


    We have confirmed that you had previously tried to influence other reviewers to vote on your nominations in a specific way. As a result of this violation, your Wayfarer account has been suspended for 30 days.


    We recommend you review the Portal Criteria (https://niantic.helpshift.com/a/ingress/?p=web&s=portal-network) before submitting any more nominations or edits and avoid using any unrelated information/codewords in your submissions. Note that any further violations can lead to the permanent suspension of your Wayfarer and your Ingress account.


    Best regards"


    My astonishment is unprecedent, so as a result, until any further clarification and to my deepest regret, I will stop from now on my wayfarer activity.

    Thanks in advance for reading and for any answer if able.

  • aleprj-INGaleprj-ING Posts: 561 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Have you ever made edits where you used a description/title edit as a comment to the reviewers (instead of using it to improve the description/title)?

    A example would be changing the location with a description change along the lines of "please choose the new location because..."

  • Oakes1923-PGOOakes1923-PGO Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭

    Here's my issue with this line of thinking. When I see an edit 7/10 times I have NO CLUE where the right location is as its usually just a satellite image of the tops of trees. As a reviewer I much prefer a brief write up so I know why the local submitter is asking for the edit. They have the local knowledge.

    Just like we require a good quality submission write up for new nominations, it would be helpful to have the same here. Why Niantic doesn't ask for a similar style write up on edits, and worse punish those that try to make it easier for reviewers to make accurate decisions on edits is another area where Niantic has fallen short in providing a quality platform for the end user to navigate.

  • sophielab-INGsophielab-ING Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭

    Put your finger on the little guy and drag to blue line for streetview. It won't help with areas with no streetview but should clear up some of the issues. Most of the location edits in your cell have streetview.

  • ElRond71-INGElRond71-ING Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited June 2021

    No, I don't do this kind of edit. I do edits concerning a title because they can include a misspelling or a kind of word that shouldn't be there. And, separately, I do edits of missplaced portals by sending the correct location. But I don't do a mix of them, text + location.

    I like reviewing wayfarer, I guess my onix medal is proof of that. And have recently taken part on the India event. So clearly don't see where does this suspension comes from. And because of that I decide to quit on this activity to my regret since there is no other explanation of it.

  • aleprj-INGaleprj-ING Posts: 561 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree a supporting field would be great for edits, but it does not exist currently.

    Using a description change for that is abuse. It is a misuse of the field, as it's a description that is never intended to make it to the games (consider the disaster it would be if they ended up there), and it has been Niantic's position regarding this so far.

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    somehow i am happy that germany stayed in the light green

  • sophielab-INGsophielab-ING Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭

    I am aware but if I can let people know how it works if streetview is available especially those who would review edits I would put in, I will. I don't have location edits in currently. It's one of the edits I hate reviewing myself so I don't do them often unless I have to.

  • BochumJules-PGOBochumJules-PGO Posts: 478 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2021

    The same story happened to me today too. And I also think that it could only be due to collagen. And I wrote a post on the subject to ask if this was ok ... and everyone replied, "As long as it's a help, it's okay!" Again, that can only mean that ignorant reviewers report players who support their submissons with a clear conscience and you will then be banned for this 🤦🏻‍♂️

    "Is a Photo-Collage allowed for an Additional Photo ? — Wayfarer" https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/11198/is-a-photo-collage-allowed-for-an-additional-photo#latest

    "Ban for influencing !? — Wayfarer" https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/18200/ban-for-influencing#latest

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2021

    Update on the technical mess:

    State until Saturday:

    • ING-Acc got the temporary ban mail, but can do evrything: nominating, editing, accessing wayfarer, reviewing ....
    • PGO-Acc can't login into wayfarer, but can nominate and submit (although not linked to my ING-Acc)

    Changes at Saturday:

    • ING-Acc got the strange messages of the 4-day-ban (like "Good job! Come back later" or alike) although I didnt do a single review since the test-review after receiving the ban mail. Didn't say something, because I didnt want to have problems during Gible-C-Day...
    • ING-Acc had a not local showcase for Saturday and Sunday. Cupids Span and so on....

    Changes today:

    • I can access the reviewing interface again, but I can't submit my review. Nothing happens....


    So please stop this mess, whatever the staff is doing there. How about communicating instead of planless pushing some buttons?

    🙈

    Post edited by Raachermannl-ING on
  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And again a new incident, that is strange:

    Two photo submissions and a location edit rejected at the same time. Since those arent simultaneously reviewed, this is highly unlikely. So there seems to be a new algorithm, that deletes simultaneous editing processes.

    This is as horrible as the effects of the bad-word-filter ....

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Next stage of the chaos without any communication:

    It's now more than 31 days since this mail about a 30d ban. I still can't log in to wayfarer with my PGO-Acc

    🤦‍♂️

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    5 days over the time, still without any communication from Niantic.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NianticGiffard is your trainee able to count to 30?

  • Hey there! We have checked from our end and can see your ban has been lifted however you have to retake the test before you can access Wayfarer.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Login into my PGO Accs wayfarer account works now. Reviewing also, but i didnt have to retake the test.

    The wayfarer-Acc of my ING-Acc also had not to retake the test, but I cant submit the reviews ....

    Nothing happens, when I push the submit-button....

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