[Update] - Survey Markers - NSW Australia
So,
There was extensive discussion in this topic about survey markers and their eligibility.
The survey markers in NSW that we are referring to are regular, numbered but generic markers placed to help survey the land in the state. But. There are literally hundreds of thousands of them all across the state. They are not the trigonometrical stations that are often at the tops of hills, but little circles of steel spread throughout suburbia.
They are becoming a plague in the game. The screenshot above is an example of the egregious nature of these things. The straight line of PoI in the Wayfarer duplicates tab is the line of survey markers that you can see in the duplicate options. They are all more or less the same looking things,
What they are not are:
- A great place for exploration - they're boring generic things often in boring generic suburbs
- A great place for exercise - these things do nothing for exercise, in fact they reduce it as players are putting these in suburbs next to their houses so they don't need to walk to the nearby park
- A great place for socialisation with others - again, these do nothing for socialisation as they promote antisocial behaviours by making it easy for people to stay at home.
@NianticCasey-ING or other Niantic reps - please, you need to take another look at these markers and really have a good think about their eligibility or not. Quite clearly, they are not in the spirit of the criteria as time has now given us the opportunity to demonstrate.
Comments
Niantic should just mass delete these.
I've seen a number of Aussie Wayfinders express the idea (on past threads on this forum and elsewhere) that they feel that these particular markers do not meet the current criteria. Despite this, they give the markers a good score because they're worried about going against the Wayfarer groupthink and having their Wayfinder Rating lowered as a consequence.
Clarification and action is sorely needed here.
Seeing a massive chunk and influence where many submitters (AND reviewers) are still basing off the former Ingress Community Manager Andrew Krug's post, even right up to this day:
Yes, people are picking out what was in the former OPR Candidate Action Guide and yes, people are taking very specific parts of someone's statements and reducing any sort of context for ineligibility/reject criteria. But they are not to be blamed.
Let's have a look at the first five results that come up when doing a Google search of "survey marks wayfarer":
In a nutshell:
In reality, the fact that someone (Andrew Krug) has explicitly said that they are eligible and NianticBrian has alluded to scanning something that is physically small (like a bench mark or survey marker), plus the general feel and sentiment in all these unattended requests for clarification, plus the ongoing fact that they are often constantly featured as wayspots throughout Sydney and Wollongong, for real, the odds are against this "number of Aussie wayfinders". Because anyone who would argue for or support these survey marks nominations are most likely going to be lambasted by the excessively vocal (somewhat of a) minority here.
Essentially I'm just regurgitating what I mentioned in previous posts but:
'constantly featured as wayspots throughout Sydney and Wollongong'
That is a problem. Because of the algorithm, one corner of the map can dictate behaviour over a wide area. So the degeneracy spreads.
https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/2147/featured-wayspot-selection-algorithm
I 100% concur with the request for clarification about whether this is intended or not. I made quite a few analysis posts in the topic here highlighting what I perceive to be a major issue: https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/13044/survey-markers/p1.
I personally still think that it is a flagrant absurdity to have these urban survey markers -- which are required by law to be located a maximum of 500 metres from each other, with no individual merit or historical significance, usually on the verge of private property, sometimes even located in the gutter of the road (a place of questionable pedestrian access) -- are being accepted on a daily basis. As I have commented previously, these things are ubiquitous, far outweighing common features such as bus stops. You might as well just ditch POIs completely and have systematically generated portals/pokestops every 500 metres if this is going to be the state of the Wayfarer network in Sydney.
I would like my concerns and the concerns of other Wayfarers on the forum to at least be addressed by Niantic rep (@NianticCasey-ING @NianticGiffard ), and have it cleared up either way. If this is what they want for the POI network, then so be it, I will start accepting them in the future. But if the mass addition of these sorts of POIs are not what the intentions of the guideline criteria, then in this case something needs to actually be communicated in order to change the opinion of the majority of voters.
One of the examples I provided earlier was the town of Lithgow, who (due to algorithmic reasons) always features prominently on the Featured Wayspots listing. When I commented 2 months ago, there were 33 state survey markers (purple markers below) constituting over 10% of the total portals in Lithgow. Looking back now, this has grown to 45 portals (newly accepted survey markers in red below), now making up 15% of the total portals in the town. Furthermore, when you look at the s2 cells, it is very clear to see that state survey markers are being added to make 2 or 6 Pokestops per level 14 cell for the express intention of creating gyms. They are not being added because the survey marker is inherently interesting or relates to the criteria -- it is simply a tool used to manipulate gym spawning in Pokemon Go.
As for Kariong, which I formerly posted about, here's the size of the suburb...
So that looks like a good amount of POIs. Can't wait to visit Kariong. What sorts of sights and attractions would I find there, I wonder?
And these are littered in front of people's houses... (Every single portal in the screenshot below is a survey marker)
Some of these I am gobsmacked that they were accepted, e.g. the following one @ -33.433769,151.289461. You have to either be standing on the road or awkwardly stand in front of someone's house. How can this possibly meet the guidelines? And yet they are getting accepted in mass by a cabal of voters in certain communities.
It is at the stage where reportedly there are ~1000 state survey markers live. It is beyond the point of critical mass, because reviewers can see the masses of survey markers on the Duplicates list, which makes them believe that (a) these must meet the criteria because they keep being accepted, and (b) if I reject this then I will get a disagreement and it will hurt my agreement rating. This leads to more people voting to accept, which leads to more on the duplicates list, and the cycle continues.
I'm sorry if this seems like a pointless rant, but there have been multiple threads with people on this forum raising their concern about the current status quo in Sydney, Australia, which has been met with complete silence from Niantic. And given that the current outcome for these sorts of nominations is currently 'Accept', a lack of commenting is tacit approval from Niantic.
Like I said earlier, if this is actually what Niantic wants then I will move on and stop complaining. But I cannot fathom that this sort of acceptance behaviour is what was intended when the criteria guidelines were released. To have a portal/pokestop on basically every street corner of urban NSW?? To have a network of portals in front of private residential properties??
And if this isn't what Niantic wants for the POI network, then there will need to be some action or at the very least communication if they want things to change.
i'm from south Australia when i get them, when people upgrade, I give them 3 stars as i have no idea, what is going on with them
I am disgusted by how many of these 50c sized survey markers I get when I'm reviewing, and how many are currently in game. If Nia really wanted these in game, they can just mass import them - the data is public. These things offer no value to the game what so ever. The irony is, some people submit one to get a couchie, then whinge about people finding out where they live.
My biggest issue is, often in the supporting statement they say it can be safely reached from the side walk when the marker is actually in the gutter. I'm not sure about everyone else but if I were an Ingress player trying to ultra strike the portal, the gutter is NOT a safe place to stand as it is literally on the road.
I reject most of those for unsafe pedestrian access (if it's in the gutter), or PRP if it's on the footpath/kerb outside someone house (this is where I take the "40m rule" seriously), otherwise, I either skip or reject for low quality photo. I haven't accepted a single one and my rating is still great.
Having said all that, if I see one of those on top of a hill in place instead of either a SC (pole style) or MC (trig station) survey mark, then I will accept no problems.
If they're on the sidewalk(or even gutter) in front of of a single family home thats a prp reject, just like an lfl.
It's nothing short of a disgrace that this many survey markers are being accepted in Wayfarer. Take a look at the subrub of Gregory Hills in Sydney
This is a relatively new residential suburb with a small population. Much like the poster above talking about Kariong, I had a similar thought: "Wow, there is so much stuff here for such a small suburb!"
So many of these POIs are survey markers. They've been strategically placed to maximise the number of pokestops and gyms in Pokemon Go. The most egregious thing in this case is, Gregory Hills already has a ton of decent candidates: Parks, outdoor gym equipment, educational nature signs, sculptures, a community centre, to name a few. This isn't some poor barren suburb that really needs a single gym or pokestop: it's literally just greed. There are more survey markers here than suburbs with twice the population. You know what I'd rather see in game when going to a new suburb? An excellent local cafe or restaurant, but good luck getting reviewers here to accept those (despite them being listed in the Niantic Wayfarer criteria). They will happily accept another metal puck in the ground, however.
If Niantic intends for these to be acceptable nominations, then fine, I'll shut up and accept it. But I can't imagine this is what Andrew Krug was thinking of on the topic of survey markers.
Oh and by the way, Andrew's full quote was "as long as it's on a public pathway and not on a sidewalk next to a private residence". Yeah, 95% of these break that stipulation anyway.
@TheVelvetRemedy-ING Thanks for providing another eye-opening example.
Every purple marker below is a state survey marker.
Wow - usually these amount to a couple per S14 cell. Big deal (choosing a huge map over many many square kilometres puts a false perspective on these things). They are an item in geocaching. I like them as they are unique, a challenge to find and something that can at least be a POI in huge blank areas. POIs are too sparse in many many areas outside town centres. The game should be promoting a density of POIs that encourages walking.
This is the same map area with level 14 s2 cells showing. I would not classify 10+ per level 14 cell as "a couple".
Having a unique serial number does not inherently make something POI-worthy. Every bus stop has a unique number, for example.
This area has plenty of legitimate POIs that promote walking, in more appropriate locations such as parks as opposed to people's driveways.
You have been shown to be objectively wrong with your numbers already.
But the idea that everyone has a stop they can spin without leaving the house does not seem to promote walking.
Clearly the system has been corrupted in Australia and Niantic should cauterize the wound.
Density doesn't really favor Ingress players or Harry Potter players. More spacing makes the games a bit better.
Increased density only really favor Pogo players having Pokestops on top of their homes or work places so they don't have to exercise as game play doesn't really regard walking in many cases. Once you have a stop on your home, all set; no need to leave. And you can buy remote raid passes to get Pokemon you're missing. What benefit is there for more pokestops as it relates to exercise?
As an Ingress player, I generally dislike intensely super dense áreas except when low on items. And I am happier to walk places if it means more MU and more fields.
@Tntnnbltn-ING The great thing about that image with the cell overlay is that it shows each cell already has enough POIs for 2 gyms, without including survey markers. Yikes.
I find it funny that someone is here trying to claim survey markers are unique, or otherwise are good waypoints. No one I know has ever tried to justify their inclusion other than saying "well, Niantic says we can".
sigh 🙄
I look at this thread and think to myself: "the next time somebody complains about UK post boxes, I'll direct them here." There might be one antique post box per S14, if one is lucky. Things have somehow become out of hand in that area of Australia.
Just automatically drop everyone who's approved these wayspots to poor, problem solved.
Hi, just boosting this to see if there's been any resolution yet, Australian East Coast wayfarer is absolutely flooded with these garbage submissions.
Awesome thread.
I agree they should be banned- They are in the 100s of thousands. The law states that every 5 parcels of land has one. In towns roads have two SSM (State Survey Marks - the round things nailed to the ground) every 1000 metres and for Rural it is two SSM every 2000 metres. We need to distinguish a few things though.
Survey Marks (NSW) are split into different categories
trigonometrical points. Few in number. Tend to be very visible and quite large. Great Waypoints.
Permanent Marks. There are more than Trig points and much much less than SSM. Tend to sit in boxes in the ground. To find their numbers you have to open them and look under the lid. See below for an image of what the ratio looks like.
Then in Rural Settings for your Survey Marks you also have - Reference Trees (Yes Trees that have been marked) - Identification Plates and Star Pickets. These are more interesting and in particular make better Way Points. Much rarer and as in rural spots (NOT regional and Metropoliton) gives rural players better chance of having a way point. But again. A numbers game.
There are things known as Cadastral (Boundary) marks. But these are a dime a dozen too. Very non descript and often on kerbs or in gutters or the road.
Then there are Alignment marks (they look like an arrow). These are interesting as they can be on Rocks (as in a rock) or on posts. Much rarer. I think I saw one in the **** up the Blue Mountains.
Image shows the number of Permanent Marks to State Survey Marks (those round things). This image is from the Survery Generals Directive #4 issued in 2019. Just a really neat way to see just how many there are.
My rule of thumb is - if its round - in the ground - and its a state survey marker - is no way unique and I don't accept. I make clear that if it is on the kerb - in the gutter or in the road then it is dangerous as well. They do not - in towns or cities promote exercise.
Australian reviewers have corrupted the system and Niantic have accepted it.
Here Giffard deletes one of these mass produced mandatory markers because it is in the middle of the road. The others did not meet removal criteria. They are here to stay.
https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/comment/102529/#Comment_102529
Maybe you'd better to start reporting each of them, just like how someone on the other side of this Earth do the same against manhole covers:
Jokes aside, If Niantic really did pre-review nominations, how would they think about survey markers—and the actually massive number of them?
The marker which was in the middle of the road was a nomination in review, as can be seen by the visible star rating system. It was never accepted or in-game, so the example they provided which was "live in the system right now" was false and only In Voting.
I live in a new zone of an estate, and walking the streets there are barely ANY stops. I’ve submitted a State Survey Mark a few times and it’s been rejected with a very vague (and generic) response. Some players don’t like sitting at the park all day. As the bushland surrounds the streets, these State Survey Marks are the ONLY things that I can swipe, unless I set up camp at the park (which is not practical and I want to play when I walk). There are other State Survey Marks around (but still barely any).
I’ve been playing the game from the beginning (2016) and I really could not care for the information at the stop when I’m on my travels. I swipe and collect the items and move on to try and catch some ‘Mon’. It seems like people on here and the higher powers have another agenda. Please try and make it equitable for everyone playing, these State Survey Marks are all that I really have out here and if they aren’t “eligible” than I have nothing around my neighbourhood when I walk (which is pretty weak). As i mentioned above, I don’t care for the stop’s “History” or find them interesting. That part is totally subjective and if you like that, fine, you do you. The game is called ‘Pokémon GO’,not ‘Pokémon sit-and-have a-read-all-day-and-only-swipe-the-stops-there’.
So I value each and every stop on my travels as it gives me the items I need to catch the Pokémon I grew up loving as a kid.
If you’re a player and you disagree with anything I’ve said, are you even a player at all.
Niantic’s mission is to build products that encourage us to explore the world, exercise and be social with each other, so it seems like your goal of ignoring the world and only catching Pokemon is opposite of what Niantic want to achieve. Perhaps playing Pokemon Red/Blue on the GameBoy might be best to achieve what you desire in that case.
I can understand not having enough Waypoints to be able to play with, but that is the unfortunate side effect of the Niantic platform. If a town or city has barely any history or culture, it will barely make a blip in the game. On the plus side, it helps to highlight the excellent and noteworthy points of interest around us and truly does make it an excellent aid in exploring (especially when going to new cities for example). The value gained is the real world experience, and returning to the topic, these generic mass-produced markers that are barely larger than a coin do not fit the bill to help in exploration. They are nothing but a misconstrued exploit people have taken advantage of so that they can do nothing but catch Pokemon, instead of exploring the world as per Niantic's mission. That's not how the games should be played.
Won't you guys believe it? Trying to report each of them IS ACTUALLY WORKING.
I don't know how many manhole covers he did report there, but @NianticGiffard replied with this:
There are over 1 million state survey marks in Australia. There are over 250,000 survey marks in NSW. With thousands added every year.
If that is not the definition of mass-produced, generic and is neither visually unique or interesting - I am not sure what is.
Nor are they a great place of exploration, place for exercise, or place to be social.
They are often placed in the road, part of road gutters, on the kerb and in driveways. These are unsafe positions.
They are often posted by the same person. I have spoken with other people who say they are nominating as many as possible to be best poster. It is a game for them. Pokemon don't help that by giving badges for it.
It is not about the wider Niantic or Pokemon values. But a competition. Or as I have encountered, a finger up to the system. And you if you live in areas with little features then some local players will of course love the fact they never have to leave their house.
The only exceptions possibly are in the very remote towns, trig points, star pickets and tree survey marks.
These are still being submitted, this one even going so far as to tell me that these are "eligible submission[s] according to Niantic", a statement I have been unable to verify.
@NianticTintino, a request made made in the original post of this topic for a Niantic rep to provide guidance about the eligibility of such submissions, however no response was provided. Multiple Australian reviewers have raised concerns across multiple topics over the nature of these submissions, with some of those concerns summarised in this discussion. This was before you began in your role, but can you please have a read of the discussion and provide any feedback as to the eligibility of these types of survey markers?
You gotta accept that some submitters are desperate and will claim that anything is "eligible according to Niantic".
And if I'm not mistaken, it feels like everyone here is trying to turn a blind eye to the original context of why people thought it's eligible and that is Krug's statement two years ago (even if it is horribly misconstrued... as do most people do in stretching the criteria I guess). The "December 2020 update" was when they changed the classification where survey mark used to appear in the "What is it?" categories but was replaced by geodetic sign, hence the aforementioned update in the supporting statement. But as we all know, that category is not a good indicator of what is eligible, yet people call that as gospel anyway.
How about the McDonalds or 7-Eleven in Maitland, or pokemon park picnic? Personally I wouldn't bother, Niantic is happy to pollute their own database with the Turkish Foursquare Debacle and failing to remove a McDonald's. Why exhibit and feign integrity for a company that fails to uphold theirs? Why bother bothering?
If they are ineligible, then let your reviews speak for itself. There's a nice shiny survey mark currently featured as a wayspot on the Wayfarer homepage (unless you're north of the line). Does that not tell local reviewers that maybe they
arecan be acceptable?It's easy to fall into some kind of state of Wayfinder Nihilism, but if you pride yourself in reviewing fairly, consistently and well, then I really feel this is a fair question to ask - how would those at Niantic review these markers*? The topic has been raised by multiple reviewers just this year.
Jan - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/12339/geodetic-survey-marker-disks-questions-on-pedestrian-access-visual-uniqueness-and-prp
Jan - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/12601/are-survey-markers-still-eligible-under-new-wayfarer
Feb - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/13044/survey-markers
Jul - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/20560/survey-marks-gregory-hills-area-nse
Oct- https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/23874/feels-dirty
The most we've gotten out of Niantic is the existing Survey Markers in Gregory Hills do not meet the criteria for removal at this time - but we know the criteria for removal and the criteria for acceptance are not one and the same.
If you review in Sydney, surely you must encounter these very frequently. I know I do. These get approved in spades in some suburbs, despite having extremely niche appeal, often being embedded in suburban residential driveways or in the gutters of roads, and being significantly more common than generally rejected features such as post boxes and uncovered picnic tables - both of which arguably have much more value to many more people under the explore-socialise-exercise mantra we're currently supposed to be assessing candidates under these days.
*Edit: When they're not approving some of the weird things they've let through recently.