[Update] - Survey Markers - NSW Australia

So,

There was extensive discussion in this topic about survey markers and their eligibility.

The survey markers in NSW that we are referring to are regular, numbered but generic markers placed to help survey the land in the state. But. There are literally hundreds of thousands of them all across the state. They are not the trigonometrical stations that are often at the tops of hills, but little circles of steel spread throughout suburbia.

They are becoming a plague in the game. The screenshot above is an example of the egregious nature of these things. The straight line of PoI in the Wayfarer duplicates tab is the line of survey markers that you can see in the duplicate options. They are all more or less the same looking things,

What they are not are:

  • A great place for exploration - they're boring generic things often in boring generic suburbs
  • A great place for exercise - these things do nothing for exercise, in fact they reduce it as players are putting these in suburbs next to their houses so they don't need to walk to the nearby park
  • A great place for socialisation with others - again, these do nothing for socialisation as they promote antisocial behaviours by making it easy for people to stay at home.

@NianticCasey-ING or other Niantic reps - please, you need to take another look at these markers and really have a good think about their eligibility or not. Quite clearly, they are not in the spirit of the criteria as time has now given us the opportunity to demonstrate.

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Comments

  • WoodWose-PGOWoodWose-PGO Posts: 128 Ambassador

    I've seen a number of Aussie Wayfinders express the idea (on past threads on this forum and elsewhere) that they feel that these particular markers do not meet the current criteria. Despite this, they give the markers a good score because they're worried about going against the Wayfarer groupthink and having their Wayfinder Rating lowered as a consequence.

    Clarification and action is sorely needed here.

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seeing a massive chunk and influence where many submitters (AND reviewers) are still basing off the former Ingress Community Manager Andrew Krug's post, even right up to this day:

    Yes, people are picking out what was in the former OPR Candidate Action Guide and yes, people are taking very specific parts of someone's statements and reducing any sort of context for ineligibility/reject criteria. But they are not to be blamed.

    Let's have a look at the first five results that come up when doing a Google search of "survey marks wayfarer":

    In a nutshell:

    • ..."Judging by the last AMA I guess they are eligible?" - Wayfarer Forum
    • "Can we get written verification on survey marker submissions on if they are acceptable or not acceptable POI's." - Wayfarer Forum
    • "... but am questioning how we're supposed to review them and verify that they are indeed..." - Wayfarer Forum
    • Top answer on Reddit: "5/5 Just make sure you can prove its there. I found mine on [website]..." - Reddit
    • "The candidate action guide on the OPR website listed survey markers as acceptable candidates but I can find no mention of them on Wayfarer." - Ingress Community Forums

    In reality, the fact that someone (Andrew Krug) has explicitly said that they are eligible and NianticBrian has alluded to scanning something that is physically small (like a bench mark or survey marker), plus the general feel and sentiment in all these unattended requests for clarification, plus the ongoing fact that they are often constantly featured as wayspots throughout Sydney and Wollongong, for real, the odds are against this "number of Aussie wayfinders". Because anyone who would argue for or support these survey marks nominations are most likely going to be lambasted by the excessively vocal (somewhat of a) minority here.

    Essentially I'm just regurgitating what I mentioned in previous posts but:

    • Many concentrated Pokemon Go communities (especially in the area where they have submitted a State Pole Marker and NSW recycled water marker to pass off as a survey mark) heavily support these and will vote all others up to get theirs in. It's a two-way street.
    • The real survey markers (i.e. the trig points and cairns on top of mountains) are very difficult to get in. It boils down to reviewer education.
    • Endless features of survey marks in Sydney (already mentioned).
    • Surprisingly, other large groups such as the Wayfarer - Global Reviewers Facebook group and the Wayfarer Discussion 3.0 Discord channel are either supportive or generally neutral/indifferent towards these.
    • And for so long as Niantic remains silent on this and focus on the real fakes (i.e. the Stolperstines, the abuse, endless home pokestops/couchie attempts and the masked explorer, among others), nuthin' will change.
  • zestypidgey-PGOzestypidgey-PGO Posts: 5 ✭✭

    i'm from south Australia when i get them, when people upgrade, I give them 3 stars as i have no idea, what is going on with them

  • AeriTheBOFH-PGOAeriTheBOFH-PGO Posts: 273 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2021

    I am disgusted by how many of these 50c sized survey markers I get when I'm reviewing, and how many are currently in game. If Nia really wanted these in game, they can just mass import them - the data is public. These things offer no value to the game what so ever. The irony is, some people submit one to get a couchie, then whinge about people finding out where they live.

    My biggest issue is, often in the supporting statement they say it can be safely reached from the side walk when the marker is actually in the gutter. I'm not sure about everyone else but if I were an Ingress player trying to ultra strike the portal, the gutter is NOT a safe place to stand as it is literally on the road.

    I reject most of those for unsafe pedestrian access (if it's in the gutter), or PRP if it's on the footpath/kerb outside someone house (this is where I take the "40m rule" seriously), otherwise, I either skip or reject for low quality photo. I haven't accepted a single one and my rating is still great.

    Having said all that, if I see one of those on top of a hill in place instead of either a SC (pole style) or MC (trig station) survey mark, then I will accept no problems.

  • SlicedPeas-INGSlicedPeas-ING Posts: 336 ✭✭✭✭

    If they're on the sidewalk(or even gutter) in front of of a single family home thats a prp reject, just like an lfl.

  • Casliber-PGOCasliber-PGO Posts: 3 ✭✭

    Wow - usually these amount to a couple per S14 cell. Big deal (choosing a huge map over many many square kilometres puts a false perspective on these things). They are an item in geocaching. I like them as they are unique, a challenge to find and something that can at least be a POI in huge blank areas. POIs are too sparse in many many areas outside town centres. The game should be promoting a density of POIs that encourages walking.

  • purplepopple-INGpurplepopple-ING Posts: 189 ✭✭✭

    Density doesn't really favor Ingress players or Harry Potter players. More spacing makes the games a bit better.


    Increased density only really favor Pogo players having Pokestops on top of their homes or work places so they don't have to exercise as game play doesn't really regard walking in many cases. Once you have a stop on your home, all set; no need to leave. And you can buy remote raid passes to get Pokemon you're missing. What benefit is there for more pokestops as it relates to exercise?

    As an Ingress player, I generally dislike intensely super dense áreas except when low on items. And I am happier to walk places if it means more MU and more fields.

  • AeriTheBOFH-PGOAeriTheBOFH-PGO Posts: 273 ✭✭✭✭
  • lulupoc-INGlulupoc-ING Posts: 1 ✭✭

    Just automatically drop everyone who's approved these wayspots to poor, problem solved.

  • ninthnomad-INGninthnomad-ING Posts: 10 ✭✭

    Hi, just boosting this to see if there's been any resolution yet, Australian East Coast wayfarer is absolutely flooded with these garbage submissions.

  • rufoushumming-PGOrufoushumming-PGO Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome thread.

    I agree they should be banned- They are in the 100s of thousands. The law states that every 5 parcels of land has one. In towns roads have two SSM (State Survey Marks - the round things nailed to the ground) every 1000 metres and for Rural it is two SSM every 2000 metres. We need to distinguish a few things though.

    Survey Marks (NSW) are split into different categories

    trigonometrical points. Few in number. Tend to be very visible and quite large. Great Waypoints.

    Permanent Marks. There are more than Trig points and much much less than SSM. Tend to sit in boxes in the ground. To find their numbers you have to open them and look under the lid. See below for an image of what the ratio looks like.

    Then in Rural Settings for your Survey Marks you also have - Reference Trees (Yes Trees that have been marked) - Identification Plates and Star Pickets. These are more interesting and in particular make better Way Points. Much rarer and as in rural spots (NOT regional and Metropoliton) gives rural players better chance of having a way point. But again. A numbers game.

    There are things known as Cadastral (Boundary) marks. But these are a dime a dozen too. Very non descript and often on kerbs or in gutters or the road.

    Then there are Alignment marks (they look like an arrow). These are interesting as they can be on Rocks (as in a rock) or on posts. Much rarer. I think I saw one in the **** up the Blue Mountains.

    Image shows the number of Permanent Marks to State Survey Marks (those round things). This image is from the Survery Generals Directive #4 issued in 2019. Just a really neat way to see just how many there are.

    My rule of thumb is - if its round - in the ground - and its a state survey marker - is no way unique and I don't accept. I make clear that if it is on the kerb - in the gutter or in the road then it is dangerous as well. They do not - in towns or cities promote exercise.


  • KwyjiboHan-PGOKwyjiboHan-PGO Posts: 128 ✭✭✭

    Australian reviewers have corrupted the system and Niantic have accepted it.

    Here Giffard deletes one of these mass produced mandatory markers because it is in the middle of the road. The others did not meet removal criteria. They are here to stay.

    https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/comment/102529/#Comment_102529

  • patsufredo-PGOpatsufredo-PGO Posts: 4,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe you'd better to start reporting each of them, just like how someone on the other side of this Earth do the same against manhole covers:

    Jokes aside, If Niantic really did pre-review nominations, how would they think about survey markers—and the actually massive number of them?

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The marker which was in the middle of the road was a nomination in review, as can be seen by the visible star rating system. It was never accepted or in-game, so the example they provided which was "live in the system right now" was false and only In Voting.

  • I live in a new zone of an estate, and walking the streets there are barely ANY stops. I’ve submitted a State Survey Mark a few times and it’s been rejected with a very vague (and generic) response. Some players don’t like sitting at the park all day. As the bushland surrounds the streets, these State Survey Marks are the ONLY things that I can swipe, unless I set up camp at the park (which is not practical and I want to play when I walk). There are other State Survey Marks around (but still barely any).

    I’ve been playing the game from the beginning (2016) and I really could not care for the information at the stop when I’m on my travels. I swipe and collect the items and move on to try and catch some ‘Mon’. It seems like people on here and the higher powers have another agenda. Please try and make it equitable for everyone playing, these State Survey Marks are all that I really have out here and if they aren’t “eligible” than I have nothing around my neighbourhood when I walk (which is pretty weak). As i mentioned above, I don’t care for the stop’s “History” or find them interesting. That part is totally subjective and if you like that, fine, you do you. The game is called ‘Pokémon GO’,not ‘Pokémon sit-and-have a-read-all-day-and-only-swipe-the-stops-there’.

    So I value each and every stop on my travels as it gives me the items I need to catch the Pokémon I grew up loving as a kid.

    If you’re a player and you disagree with anything I’ve said, are you even a player at all.

  • oscarc1-INGoscarc1-ING Posts: 366 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Niantic’s mission is to build products that encourage us to explore the world, exercise and be social with each other, so it seems like your goal of ignoring the world and only catching Pokemon is opposite of what Niantic want to achieve. Perhaps playing Pokemon Red/Blue on the GameBoy might be best to achieve what you desire in that case.

    I can understand not having enough Waypoints to be able to play with, but that is the unfortunate side effect of the Niantic platform. If a town or city has barely any history or culture, it will barely make a blip in the game. On the plus side, it helps to highlight the excellent and noteworthy points of interest around us and truly does make it an excellent aid in exploring (especially when going to new cities for example). The value gained is the real world experience, and returning to the topic, these generic mass-produced markers that are barely larger than a coin do not fit the bill to help in exploration. They are nothing but a misconstrued exploit people have taken advantage of so that they can do nothing but catch Pokemon, instead of exploring the world as per Niantic's mission. That's not how the games should be played.

  • rufoushumming-PGOrufoushumming-PGO Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are over 1 million state survey marks in Australia. There are over 250,000 survey marks in NSW. With thousands added every year.

    If that is not the definition of mass-produced, generic and is neither visually unique or interesting - I am not sure what is.

    Nor are they a great place of exploration, place for exercise, or place to be social.

    They are often placed in the road, part of road gutters, on the kerb and in driveways. These are unsafe positions.

    They are often posted by the same person. I have spoken with other people who say they are nominating as many as possible to be best poster. It is a game for them. Pokemon don't help that by giving badges for it.

    It is not about the wider Niantic or Pokemon values. But a competition. Or as I have encountered, a finger up to the system. And you if you live in areas with little features then some local players will of course love the fact they never have to leave their house.

    The only exceptions possibly are in the very remote towns, trig points, star pickets and tree survey marks.

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You gotta accept that some submitters are desperate and will claim that anything is "eligible according to Niantic".

    And if I'm not mistaken, it feels like everyone here is trying to turn a blind eye to the original context of why people thought it's eligible and that is Krug's statement two years ago (even if it is horribly misconstrued... as do most people do in stretching the criteria I guess). The "December 2020 update" was when they changed the classification where survey mark used to appear in the "What is it?" categories but was replaced by geodetic sign, hence the aforementioned update in the supporting statement. But as we all know, that category is not a good indicator of what is eligible, yet people call that as gospel anyway.

    How about the McDonalds or 7-Eleven in Maitland, or pokemon park picnic? Personally I wouldn't bother, Niantic is happy to pollute their own database with the Turkish Foursquare Debacle and failing to remove a McDonald's. Why exhibit and feign integrity for a company that fails to uphold theirs? Why bother bothering?

    If they are ineligible, then let your reviews speak for itself. There's a nice shiny survey mark currently featured as a wayspot on the Wayfarer homepage (unless you're north of the line). Does that not tell local reviewers that maybe they are can be acceptable?

  • WoodWose-PGOWoodWose-PGO Posts: 128 Ambassador
    edited October 2021

    It's easy to fall into some kind of state of Wayfinder Nihilism, but if you pride yourself in reviewing fairly, consistently and well, then I really feel this is a fair question to ask - how would those at Niantic review these markers*? The topic has been raised by multiple reviewers just this year.

    Jan - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/12339/geodetic-survey-marker-disks-questions-on-pedestrian-access-visual-uniqueness-and-prp

    Jan - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/12601/are-survey-markers-still-eligible-under-new-wayfarer

    Feb - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/13044/survey-markers

    Jul - https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/20560/survey-marks-gregory-hills-area-nse

    Oct- https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/23874/feels-dirty

    The most we've gotten out of Niantic is the existing Survey Markers in Gregory Hills do not meet the criteria for removal at this time - but we know the criteria for removal and the criteria for acceptance are not one and the same.

    If you review in Sydney, surely you must encounter these very frequently. I know I do. These get approved in spades in some suburbs, despite having extremely niche appeal, often being embedded in suburban residential driveways or in the gutters of roads, and being significantly more common than generally rejected features such as post boxes and uncovered picnic tables - both of which arguably have much more value to many more people under the explore-socialise-exercise mantra we're currently supposed to be assessing candidates under these days.

    *Edit: When they're not approving some of the weird things they've let through recently.

    Post edited by WoodWose-PGO on
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