Clarification on WHY US Military bases are banned?

135

Comments

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps, yeah there was another thread and I was annoyed how were all saying Niantic should flat out geoblock nominations from bases and I want the opposite. Then they wanted me to get out of "their" thread so I made this one. But most of the disagreement are when I do state that they aren't unsafe areas.

    The disagreement thing is there for a reason so feel free to press it. haha. Just found it odd how i'll get 4 or 5 or 6 on those few.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm going to try to ask someone from Niantic directly during perhaps the next AMA about why military bases (specifically US because it seems outside the US they are not suitable) are blocked. As obviously myself, but military members, veterans, dependants, and spouses do and want to play Niantic games too and live on bases. I don't have a personal agenda about it, I'm not a dependant anymore and dont live on base, but I'm a AF brat so im heavily invested in the military life. Is the next AMA the best way to get the info im looking for?

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TrevorAlan-PGO You can ask but I recommend not getting your hopes up. Niantic's lawyers are notoriously conservative and so are their PR folks. I'm honestly quite surprised that they didn't remove all of the military base wayspots when they stopped accepting new ones.

  • toniukupaoni-INGtoniukupaoni-ING Posts: 41 ✭✭

    So I've seen your thread on the Semptember AMA discussion.


    And I agree that eligible POIs on the residential part of the base, should be accepted. But, as there always is one, Niantic won't allow it. Simply because making exceptions will open the floodgate. For people asking for other exceptions.


    I'd be encouraged, to ask exceptions on the sports fields, playgrounds, etc. on K12. As those are open to the public. Or an exception to the PRP rule. Or..., you see where I'm going. That's a lot of work for Niantic. And it's not really in their interest to allow your exception.

  • patsufredo-PGOpatsufredo-PGO Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Come to think about it, same situation also happened in my country.

    Yes, military HQ building shouldn't be accepted. Yes, things within military base that will endanger any players shouldn't be accepted. And yes, things that should be confidential within the base shouldn't be accepted. And if this wasn't enough, the base commander can request to Niantic to remove every Wayspots in their base and geoblocked the area for prevent further submissions.

    But then there's military settlement where family of military members live in, and there are stuffs like sports fields, mosques, and even playgrounds for the kids of military members. I would say they're acceptable just like things within industrial area that won't obstruct the industrial operation—and won't be dangerous for players.

    But then, let's see if @NianticTintino can shed some insights for this.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just posted a response to @toniukupaoni-ING with an image I included previously in the thread. So its pending approval. But yeah theres HUGE areas on bases (at least 50%) that are 100% normal, safe areas that would meet the general criteria. Its all pretty common sense stuff, so I'd love to see someone argue against my points, because every time I say that military bases (in the US at least) are safe and not top secret I get disagree reactions. And I dont understand how they could disagree unless they dont know what they are talking about.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And I guess I didn't read the last paragraph fully. but heres the problem. Military bases are like a school, or PRP. They are entire communities, basically a town or a city. Thats how they are in the US. So its akin to banning a whole town or city (and then people come on to the forum here demanding that all current waypoints be removed)

    I don't want to use the word "discrimination" but it comes across as such. Again I can only assume it's because the people voicing their opinions on it have never been on, or lived on a military base. And have no experience to military life in the US. So they are creating some picture in their head based off of popular media that military bases are only for "soldiers" and "government activities" which is sooooooo the farthest thing from the truth.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Since we are continuing this old thread. For anyone who comes in here, I'd like to pose the question.

    Why do you think Waypoints shouldn't be allowed/should be removed from US military bases?

  • aleprj-INGaleprj-ING Posts: 562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When you consider the non operational parts of the bases (I mean the residential/leisure sections), I can't really see any valid reason.

    They are restricted areas and people don't like restricted areas in general, so that's the reason I think people don't like them (although not a valid reason).

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The wayfarer guidance is global, not specific for any country, otherwise it would be great to remove the US-centric restrictions (like the definition of PRP) for the rest of the world.

    But then the problem starts when people have to look at the rules in each country around the world, specially in zones like Europe.

    And what happens with USA military bases outside USA? Anything related to the USA should be approved? I think that there are military bases outside USA that are part USA, part local army, how to deal with them?

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So the problem I have with that is it sounds like US military bases and military bases from other countries are not the same thing and basically are not the same definition. (I've never been outside the US so I don't know).

    I've lived on US military bases since I was born. And every single one was the same. They're just gated communities/towns.

    So extreme example, but if a playground in the US is a safe place for kids to play, but playgrounds in X Y and Z country are actually unsafe because a playground is a place where they keep I dont know, radioactive waste and explosives? Then playgrounds all across the world should be banned? I know, I know, im stretching on that but IDK what's a more realistic comparison, since like I said it sounds like the definition of a military base is not the same.

    Barring military bases in the US is singling out US military and families in the military who live on base. Because (especially during covid lockdowns) many never have to leave a base or ever do since everything you'd ever need is there. House, parks, recreation, grocery store, movie theater, church, library. They are basically gated towns/cities.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suspect that the data Niantic use may not be granular enough to distinguish residential parts of bases from others in a programmatic way. There are probably good datasets that outline the boundaries of military bases but I'd be surprised if there were ways to know which parts of bases were OK and which weren't. A blanket prohibition is just easier for them.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, so in Pokémon Go, they are using OSM, and OSM has the whole base outlined as *military. Which then Niantic went and blacklisted from ANY Pokémon spawns. Which super SUPER UBER sucks... But I'm not tackling that issue since it doesn't have anything to do with Wayfarer. - However if you (or someone else) has any suggestions on how to bubble that up to Niantic/Pokémon Go I'd appreciate it since that issue is even worse than the waypoint problem here.


    But as far as new/existing waypoints... It's pretty obviously, a playground is a playground. A dog park is a dog park. A church is a church. All those things and more exist on bases and have no real right to be denied.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, and I agree. An Image I posted earlier in this thread was this:

    Highlighting the areas on a base that I lived on multiple times during my life, and where my father was commander. The areas in green are athletic fields, and residential areas, shopping areas. And I even missed some things like the library, museum, bowling alley...

    Basically (eyeballing it) at least 50% if not more of the area is 100% safe and acceptable.

    Its just like ANY area that isnt on a military base. There's safe areas and not safe areas. Something on a runway, or in the middle of the road, or inside a school, or in PRP wouldnt be approved. Its the same story on base, I think people think its mostly top secret military stuff?

  • JaxomNC-INGJaxomNC-ING Posts: 8 ✭✭
    edited September 2021
    • avoid having civilians trespass on military ground, to prevent legal or injury issues
    • avoid military personnel not focusing on duty during work hours
    • prevent disclosing military information and locations to potential hostile forces (especially in zones of combat)
    • some countries have laws that forbid publishing any kind of military info on the internet (including Google Maps). This sometimes can be considered as an act of treason
    • etc; you name it

    Remember that time people found that Strava GPS app leaked running routine (path & schedule) of US soldiers around the outside perimeter of their military bases in Afghanistan?

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭
    • avoid having civilians trespass on military ground, to prevent legal or injury issues

    Theres little risk of this. This hasn't happened in year since the initial release of PoGo caused major trespassing issues everywhere... You can also have legal issues trespassing on private property, same problem and we dont ban apartment complexes and businesses etc.

    • avoid military personnel not focusing on duty during work hours

    I would counter this with.. then EVERYWHERE should be banned that has a business at it. Because obviously nobody will work if they can play ingress games! When was the last time you saw someone on active duty "doing work" at a playground or a sports field...

    • prevent disclosing military information and locations to potential hostile forces (especially in zones of combat)

    Military bases in the US are not combat zones, and are not secret in any way shape or form. As I have stated multiple times and from the maps I have shared... They are residential gated towns. Look up ANY military base in the US the whole thing is mapped, down to the sidewalks and names of every building. Have you ever been on a US base?

    • some countries have laws that forbid publishing any kind of military info on the internet (including Google Maps). This sometimes can be considered as an act of treason

    Well Im only talking about US bases, which apparently do not have the same definition. Again, look at google maps, instagram, snapchat, Facebook. Guess what, theyre all on there in every detail. every blade of grass.


    These aren't top secret, they aren't unsafe, they aren't in Afghanistan they are in the US.

    Not trying to be rude or snarky, but have you served in the military/are from a military family/lived on base? The only bullet point you mentioned that might be any kind of possibility of an issue was the first one but there little to no risk of that being an issue. If you dont have a military ID, CAC card, visitors pass (which anyone can get if you know someone who lives on base) you're not going to just walk in.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My response went into review apparently. Not to be rude, but this sounds like it's coming from a person who has never been on/lived on a base in the US, only the 1st bullet is even remotely relevant and even then its a non-issue.

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Simple Answer:

    "Because Niantic say so - their games, their rules".

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You want to insert nuance into the criteria. If there is one thing I've learned, it is that the Wayfarer community can't handle nuance. For example, the eligibility of memorial benches has always been conditional on who is being memorialized, yet people insisted that all memorial benches are eligible or no memorial benches should be eligible. Another example was "generic business" as part of the rejection reasons, which many took to mean that all businesses were ineligible even if the nominator could prove it was a local "hot spot".

    In the end, it is best to keep the rules simple and avoid as much nuance as possible. It sucks that some areas will end up losing out as a result, but as one Pokémon Go YouTuber so famously stated, "Life isn't fair," and expecting a game that is dependent on real world locations and objects isn't going to be fair either.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah which is kinda exactly my point. Everyone seems to be disagreeing with me on completely incorrect grounds. Assumptions that don't have a **** of truth. I'm still waiting on my original response to show up... I'll give it a few more hours otherwise I guess I'll type it back up... again. Sigh.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Makes sense, only counter I'd give to this is, Would you say its okay to ban/block entire towns?

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Jtronmoore-PGOJtronmoore-PGO Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2021

    It isnt discrimination really. I believe at one point it was an ask from the military commanders for there not to be any poi on bases. Due to the nature of the military at any given time they can shut down the base itself and stop any interaction on base that isnt work related. I get your points but it wont change anything and its best to really just leave it alone. This is coming from someone who grew up on bases and still is on bases 😅.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2021

    Stop any interaction on base that isn't work relate? What about the more than 50% of the base that is privatized housing, recreational facilities and areas, parks, playgrounds, some have hiking trails and boat rentals?


    And again, I'm not arguing on the point where in PoGo military bases have a spawn ban due to OSM tags. (which is messed up) I think its completely unfair that military bases are not allowed to get any more of these totally acceptable waypoints, and on top of that there are people on here complaining when they get a nomination for one and want all existing ones removed.

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How exactly? Because that's what military bases are, they are essentially just towns, that have a gate.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The PRP restrictions that Niantic has set for USA are a block for so many towns around the world where they live in single family buildings and so anything in the outside walls is forbidden due to a settlement of Niantic in the USA.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And if there's no streetview inside those bases, how can reviewers verify the location to check that it's indeed a valid zone and not a restricted one?

    Are you gonna be providing support for anyone that has doubts about each military complex?

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Theres also no street view in any gated community. So same problem there. Street view camera cars can't enter anywhere gated, apartment complexes, condos, businesses...

  • TrevorAlan-PGOTrevorAlan-PGO Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2021

    I feel like a complete **** arguing with people here. And thats why I was wanting to get a response directly from Niantic because this "ruling" on military bases on the US either is misinformed or outdated (in my view). And again excludes anyone living on a military base from playing Niantic games (which isn't soldiers exclusively. Small children, big children, wives, husbands, family in general) And every time its brought up I get responses like @JaxomNC-ING which don't make sense because none of that applies to US bases.

    LIke, im not trying to be argumentative but to me it proves my point that there is a complete misconception and misunderstanding of what a base is.

This discussion has been closed.