Hidden Waystops?

HalphaMile-INGHalphaMile-ING Posts: 7 ✭✭
edited July 2021 in General Discussion

A couple of days ago a poi that I submitted was accepted but due to it being close to another portal it was not created on ingress.

Today, while reviewing another poi in the same area I noticed that it was available in the wayfarer map and that the new submission tha I made of the same poi will most likely will be flaged as a duplicate.

In the past I had portals not being created due to it being to close to another one(sometimes thanks to someone moving them) but I never found it availabe in the waifarer map while not being availabe on ingress(nor pogo or wizards unite for that matter).

Has this hapenned before and does anyone know how to fix it?

For comparison the view of the same are in rhe ingress map and in the wayfarer map:


Post edited by HalphaMile-ING on
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Comments

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,366 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that you're the first that has posted a proof of this new behavior. Other people have stated that they have noticed it recently, but I didn't see any screenshot so far.

  • NorthSeaPoet-INGNorthSeaPoet-ING Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Okay, that's odd. My first assumption would be a glitch in the system but if it's not a glitch, something else is going.

    Be interesting to see what's causing this or if it's an "intended feature".

  • HalphaMile-INGHalphaMile-ING Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited July 2021

    I've noticed that the approval email now says:


    The email points out that new portals may not be created in ingress due to being to close to already existing ones, but even though the poi in question is located in an unoccupied s2-17 cell it isn't availabe in pokemon go nor wizards unite.

    If this is an intended feature I don't understand why it exists, the location can't be changed and new submissions will be flagged as duplicates

    Post edited by HalphaMile-ING on
  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2021

    Sounds like a silly thing to do. Why would Niantic want to clogg up the reviewers' map with Wayspots that have zero impact in any of he games? I've submitted some Wayspots multiple times to try and get them outside of 20m and reviewing is hard enough on a small mobile screen. I'm imagining somebody trying to nativate a dense city area in Warfarer and getting frustrated. Somebody who only submits and never reviewers may not even know of the 20m rule and keep submitting things haphazardly, thus wasting even more time because Naintic loves to use vauge languages and hates to communicate.

  • HalphaMile-INGHalphaMile-ING Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited July 2021

    Managed to get another screenshot of the hidden waystop:

    The hidden one it the mural with the two hands, if anyone wants o check the area the coords are: 37.197009,-7.419787

  • spiesr-INGspiesr-ING Posts: 313 ✭✭✭✭

    Because Wayfarer isn't about the games, it's about building a database of POI for Niantic.

    The real question is why did they for so long allow reviewers to accept duplicates of things already in the database but not live in any game by not showing them in Wayfarer (and thus clog up the database with duplicate entries)?

  • spiesr-INGspiesr-ING Posts: 313 ✭✭✭✭

    That's exactly why it exists, to stop the database from filling up with duplicate entries of things that we already accepted but not live in any current products.

  • HalphaMile-INGHalphaMile-ING Posts: 7 ✭✭

    Managed to get another screenshot that proves that the wayspot exists in wayfarer map but not in the ingress one.

    The hidden waystop is the ecological mural with the two hands.

    If anyone wants to check the place the coords are: 37.197009,-7.419787

  • HalphaMile-INGHalphaMile-ING Posts: 7 ✭✭

    If a submission is good but the location is just to close to another portal to be created just not add it to the database.

    In the past I had times that submissions were approved but not created due to being close to another portal, sometimes the fault was mine because I didn't measured the distance(as is this case), sometimes it was because reviewers changed the submitted location, but I was able to resubmit the portal and eventually it was added to ingress(there as a time it took 5 submissions), in this case I fear that any new submission will be labelled as duplicate.

    I have a theory that changing the location of the portal that exists in ingress and is to close to the one that is hidden may fix the whole situation, but in my area location alterations take over 6 months to be reviewed and I can't be sure that the new location will be approved.

  • AgentX1976-INGAgentX1976-ING Posts: 583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe because people keep nominating the same thing just moving it a little more each time. This would stop the "manipulation" of the data base. Making them all available, to presumably be marked as a duplicate.

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I first noticed this on the 6th of July. There were a couple of things being submitted in a series of rock carvings at one of the malls on the Northern Beaches. The "warringah mall nautilus shell rock carving" was approved but within 20m of another but appeared in the Check for Duplicates screen, but not in Intel.

    However, this particular thing disappeared in 2 days, so I didn't really report much on it. Lately (in the last week or so), there have been many other wayspots appearing in the Check for Duplicates screens that have been submitted by numerous people but since the first one was accepted, all other subsequent attempts have been duplicated... into this one wayspot (it's called The Tower of Love) and does not appear in Intel whatsoever.

    It might be just a burning backend thing Niantic is working on. I'm sure there might be some way to fix this, but when your wayspot is submitted or moved within 20m of range and it's stuck completely in the Check for Duplicates screen with no way to interact with it in any of the games, it just doesn't seem good. It's very similar to the rejected and too close candidates that appeared very early during the launch of HPWU.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 754 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You're right, it does not seem good. I keep hearing about "kabals of players" the forums, so is it not inconceivable that there will now be players deliberately moving Wayspots within 20m of another just to spite people they do not like? Sadly, even when Niantic punches people in the face there will be people defending that and saying is "perfectly okay to be punched in the face, we like it when Niantic hurts us" .

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 3,429 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2021

    It's entirely possible that Niantic really does intend to bring things live in other games but not Ingress.

    Think about this situation: There's a portal in Ingress that isn't live in other games due to cell density rules. Someone submits one 15 meters away from it but in an unoccupied cell in one of the other games. Niantic could in theory bring that live in other games because it's in an unoccupied cell but not within 20M of anything that's live in the other game.

    Or, put more simply, this would stop wayspots that only exist in Ingress from blocking wayspots in other games.

  • 0X00FF00-ING0X00FF00-ING Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This has already happened in my city, when Wizards United seeded its database.

    There's a park, which had long had its Ingress portal already. We'd tried to submit its playground, and it was accepted ... but deemed too close to appear in either Ingress or Pokemon Go.

    When Wizards Unite came out, it ended up having the (previously accepted) playground ingame, at the expense of the park. Because Wizards' own proximity rules only allowed one or the other to appear.

    Later still, somebody else submitted the playground ... at a different-but-still-correct location. It was far enough from the park location to be accepted, and even in its own S2 cell -- so it was now showing in both games Ingress and Pokemon Go, the park and the playground both. (I haven't yet opened up my Wizards app in the area to see if the "new" playground wayspot is in the game too; I'm guessing by the S2 cells' geometry that both playground wayspots may be in Wizards.)

    So now there's a weird situation: There's a wayspot in Wizards that CANNOT BE EDITED. We cannot add photos, change title or description, or request a location edit -- because it's only visible in a game that doesn't have those features.


    Now, in my relatively fairly dense downtown, a series of historic plaques were erected recently, and of the five I've submitted, four have been easily accepted and the final one is still in voting. (There were more, but I didn't waste my submissions slot on them, due to proximity/density.) At least two of them were "accepted" but do not appear, as they were actually too close. Oh well, either I misjudged their distance or somebody "helpfully" moved the pin for me. Either way, I guess they're never going to show up for me.

    So if they're now in the wayfarer database proper, visible to all reviewers, then that means any future attempts to resubmit WILL fail -- even if I later discover that the location pin as-accepted-by-reviewers was WRONG. This disturbs me greatly.

    On the other hand, I kind of approve of the new process, with a big "if". IF, when a poi is removed from the database (ie. the object was removed or moved), AND the formerly-hidden wayspot will newly appear in our games (including Ingress), THEN it's just one more thing we'll learn to deal with. (And one more thing that's easily abused by players to get "their" wayspot into their game instead of an existing one -- be prepared for a new series of edit wars!)

    I do know from personal experience that this wasn't already the case in Ingress -- I'd had a community garden accepted, but it happened to be "too close" to an existing wayspot of an already-removed object. After a round of removal requests followed by the obligatory appeal, the no-longer-existing object was removed from the game, but the "hidden" wayspot wasn't automatically brought into Ingress. I had to resubmit, and after a fresh batch of voting, FINALLY the community garden is ingame.


    Which brings back up the "weird" situation above. Technically this means there's a PAIR of wayspots of the exact same thing. I'd even cloned the photos, description, title, as I was submitting via Ingress and uploading saved pics from my photo album. Come whatever new game, ONE of those wayspots would show up randomly in the new game, and the other randomly NOT. Maybe it'll be the wayspot that we can edit, because it also shows up in Ingress. But maybe not. And this is going to be repeated hundreds of times across the globe.

    @NianticCasey-ING @NianticGiffard As this new weirdness I'm describing is GLOBAL in nature, it's perhaps finally time to give us wayfarers access to a full map of ALL wayspots -- even those that have been accepted but are otherwise invisible. We the players are NOT the "wayspot police", but we ARE the only ones who can effectively monitor our own neighbourhoods. I don't suppose there's really any good and simple way to automatically de-duplicate the database, because I can GUARANTEE that there are already duplicates. I mean, even in the example park above, it's got some NON-duplicate entrances to the park (one at the north roadway, one at the eastern roadway) -- and any de-duplication process will have an immense bit of trouble distinguishing that case from an actual duplicate. (For instance, Pokemon Go submissions basically MUST use a freshly taken photo for every submission, so you cannot rely on the photos being identical or not as a measure.)

  • HalphaMile-INGHalphaMile-ING Posts: 7 ✭✭

    An update on the hidden waystop in my area:

    It was flagged as a duplicate

    I've submitted an edit of the location of the portal that's available in ingress to the sidewalk in front, making it over 20m far away from the hidden waystop, hopefully bringing it online in ingress if the edit is approved.

    I'll send news if anything changes with the hidden waystop, it is in an empty cell, so if at any point niantic changes the rules in the other games it can be online on pogo or wizards, still it linda sucks that it isn't availabe on ingres..

  • willowitaly-INGwillowitaly-ING Posts: 88 ✭✭✭

    Well, I have something related. Yesterday a pokestop I nominated was added to Pokemon Go, but it doesn’t exist in Ingress, Wizards Unite, or IITC (screenshots in the thread I made). I believe I’m the first to see anything like it. So perhaps things are changing for distance criteria in different games.

  • ElRed91-PGOElRed91-PGO Posts: 3 ✭✭

    Hello HalphaMile-ING 

    Has moving your wayspot helped to make the hidden/duplicate one appear?

    I have exactly the same problem as you.

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