So all of these get hit with generic business unless they have some sort of historical significance. Niantic say these need to be in a travel guide for them to be ok. Problem is, rural and suburban areas will not have a travel guide, that's just a fact, so it's already harsh enough that the travel guide rule exists for them. Further more, people will always say they are ge Eric because eyes dotn do anythi g to stand ot, but again, I rural or suburban areas, why would they? So heres my argument for them, and it's from niantics good wayspot guide
A popular spot where locals gather, but may be lesser-known outside the community
This should be 100%why local cafes businesses in suburban and rural areas should be FAIRLY considered, they are local, so locals will gather at and use them, they will be known to the locals, and that's why I say ones that have been around for decades should be considerations for this, not for historical value but because if one is, without changing its name, it will be known to all the locals. In top of that, most would not be on trip advisor, most would be lucky to have a Facebook page.
My pint to all this is, niantic and reviewers need to start changing the way they look at local businesses, as even their own guideline states local areas that wouldnt be known to outsiders, so small local cafes/resteraunts/bars that have been round with the same name (and preferably with the same owner or stayed in the family) for decades should be acceptable and sgouldnt need to be this big fancy hyper spot
Local businesses need to meet any criteria, not just historical significance, to stand out.
Pubs, cafes, local shops in most towns and cities will be generic businesses because if there's a multitude of them, it won't make them stand out. Anyone can say that somewhere is a local hotspot or whatever, but without evidence being provided, those places will struggle to be approved.
In regards to the travel guide thing, I imagine reviews in a national paper would suffice as well or travel guides for the region in general would suffice.
I totally get what @gazzas89-PGO is saying. I live in a pretty rural area. I got one restaurant through, likely only because it's also in a historic building.
But there are two genuine "local favorites " that I can think of. They're always packed, one has been around since the 1940s, the other the 1970s. They are legitimately where you would take friends that were visiting. I tried one of them (the 1940s one, each table has it's own mini jukebox). It got denied. They definitely aren't in any real travel guide. Definitely not in any sort of national paper. Why would a Boston or NYC paper review something in New Hampshire??
I also see how difficult this is though. People could say literally any run of the mill cafe/restaurant is a local favorite/hidden gem. I don't have a good answer but it is frustrating. Even the place I got approved recently (was voted America's Best Bacon in Food & Wine magazine) isn't in any travel guides. It isn't a restaurant though, you buy it and take it home to cook it.
I get what you are saying but you cant have a rule for one and a rule for another. Niantic has said in the past when reviewing in local areas look at what is about and review accordingly.
The problem is if cafes and restaurants get in that will mean that everyone will think there greasy spoon and restaurant up and down every country is worthy of a poi.
Where would you draw the line? Where would one rule start and another end?
I'm not against the idea but it will just clog up a system that at the moment is already full of bad nominations.
@Dazzz12345-ING why shouldn't it be one rule for ow and one rule for another? We already have different rules I different countries, so why can't we have a rule for rural or suburban areas for cafes and restaurants then have another in big cities? In a big city, a cafe will most likely change its name regularly, it will be ine of hundreds, yet in a suburban or rural area, a cafe will be known by all the locals, locals will frequent them, they will all know about it, they will take their friends to it, there might be one more in a 5 mile radius from it, so why should the one that ticks all these boxes, but will never be considered because they look normal and wont be reviewed ever, be compared to a cafe in the middle fo a city that will most likely be reviewed?
@NicoSolheim-ING I'm not talki g about cities or towns though, in talking about suburbs, rural areas, ti y villages, places where you might get 1 or 2 cafes, a resteraunt and a bar and thats it for miles, these are places the locals would go to, that a visitor would be taken to, that the locals would all know about, but that no travel guide, newspaper, trip advisor, nothing would ever even think to review these because why would they?they aren't In cities so canf be reviewed
So if I walk down my town high street and there are at least 5 cafes, should they all be accepted? We also have probably 20 restaurants them as well?
@Dazzz12345-ING are you and nico ignoring what I've said? SUBURB, RURAL, what of those 2 says high street with 5 cafes to you? None of them. In ot talking about big towns or cities, I'm talki g about romances hat would have maybe 1 or 2 cafes, 1 resteraunt and 1 bar all in a 5 mile radius, all of which have been there for decades, all of which all the locals go to, but all of which no reviewer would ever visit to give a star rating, no newspaper would ever do a piece on, no travel guide would never talk about
I did read it but like I said where do you draw the line what criteria would a village cafe have to meet less than 1000 people? How would that work?
@Dazzz12345-ING look what I put in my original post, niantic gave a guideline
A popular spot where locals gather, but may be lesser-known outside the community
Adding tot hat bit, I would say of the cafe is older than say 30 years and hasn't changed its name in all that time, then it's clearly being used by enough locals, if a cafe isnt making money, doesnt have people going to it etc. Then it woulsnt be open
And it's fairly easy to draw te lone, google maps exists, we have to use it, you can see on google maps what places lime it ate I the nearby vicinity, and you ca eve tell what is rural, what is village, what is town, what is suburban, so theres an easy line to draw and an easy way to tell which is which
I draw the line at, "Can your description convince me that it is a place where locals gather on a regular bases?" Or, "Is this a place I would take a friend to?" Or, "Is this a place I would stop at if I was vacationing in the area?" It doesn't matter to me if there are 20 or 100 other restaurants/cafes/bars in a particular area. Density! Doesn't! Matter! What matters is if this particular restaurant/cafe/bar meets the criteria on its own merits. The only restaurants/cafes/bars I would completely rule out are franchises or chains.
That said, the majority of the time I see a restaurant/cafe/bar nomination, the submitter put little to no effort into their description. My standards aren't high, but I do have them and most restaurant/cafe/bar nominations often fail to meet them.
@TheFarix-PGO yeah inwouldnt say let one in that no one putnanynedfort into, but so long as some effort is put in, like explaining its history, explaining how its views in the community even if theres something interesting about it, that should matter in the description, but the idea that all mist be generic unless in a travel guide is the annoying thing that I was hoping niantic would have a look at because almost all reviewers will just insta generic business
Ok let's say they are a community gathering place. What other parts of the criteria do they meet?
@Dazzz12345-ING again, i took from the guidelines, it's a place where locals meet that isnt known to the outer community, that's literally in the guidelines for a good pokestop. And thays whybi followed up on the rest saying about how long its been around without changing names. And let's face it where is going to be a better gathering place? A local cafe everyone in the area uses or a tiny play park thay only some families in the street use?
Well I'm sure that if you actually find one that meets all the criteria it will get in
@Dazzz12345-ING I did, a local cafe that was also used as a part function, used by everyone I t he area, had an interesting g back story as it used to be a bank which is why it gets its name bankroll, and that had been around since the 60s, insta reject because generic business for aleveryhing, that's why I'm trying g to get niantic to make a better ruling on this
If it can meet that one criterion, then it is eligible. Any additional criterion it meets is gravy.
@NianticCasey-ING would it be possible to have a look at this, to say if its flat to ba e a slightly different rule for rural/suburban areas when it comes to things like cafes, restaurants, bars that are the only ones in the area, rather tha just saying all are generic businesses
Being the only restaurant/cafe in town doesnt make it special. It could be the worst restaurant and just because its the only one in town doesnt mean it deserves to be a waypoint. Its the submitters job to prove why a location should be a waypoint and if you can't do that then theres a great chance it shouldnt be a Waypoint.
That being said even if you put in a knockout description and the place truely is worthy it might take a few tries as "Local Hotspots" are notoriously the most difficult waypoints to get approved.
Before you come at me and say but but but rural/suburban. I live in a small town with like 3 non-fast food restaurants, none of them are all that special. I wouldnt necessarily take visitors there other than the fact its all my area has. That doesnt make it special. Its unfortunate but focus on stuff that is actually eligible.
@AgentB0ss-ING this is what I based this while argument on
Popular spot where locals gather, but may be lesser-known outside the community
At what poi t does it say needs to be special?no where, if the place gas been round for several years without changing then odds on it's a popular place that the locals go to
You say you have 3 that adent anything special, then your area must be weird because in my suburban area there are 2 cafes, both are good and have been around for decades, they should pass the popular local place, but they dont because of the generic business tag, one even had an interesting story on why it had its name. Yet because niantics guidelines are more aimed towards large american cities, they will never pass, tha why I want it looked at, you dint agree, cool, but that's why I want nianticcasey to have a lok at into see if theres merit to what I say or if I'm barking up the wrong tree, as far as im concerned its depriving popular small cafes that have been part of a community for decades the small recognition they deserve when chains such as wetherspoons are free to get stops constantly despite being generic as they come
While "special" is not defined in the Help Section. Generic businesses should not be approved. The opposite of generic is special/unique, so for a business to not be classified as generic it should be special/unique or meet another criteria such as having art/be in a historic building/unique architecture etc.
If you believe a location is worthy of being a Waypoint then prove it. Just because an area has less cafes/restaurants doesnt make them unique or anything better than Generic. Is there news articles? Have they won awards? Do they host poetry jams? Karaoke? Or is it just some place to grab a sandwich and a coffee because theres nothing better around?
Again its up to the submitter to prove it should be a Waypoint regardless. This is what is meant by the "Travel" guide comment in the January Clarification. Some place that is notable, special, worth people traveling to.
Reading this thread, the OP doesn't say that local cafes/restaurants should always be accepted. They say that the submission should be given fair consideration rather than reviewers seeing a picture of a restaurant and hitting "generic business" without even looking at the description or supporting information. I agree with that. Unfortunately, too many reviewers do exactly that knowing that there are enough others who will do the same that they'll get an easy agreement.
I think it would be helpful for Niantic to include a few examples of good local cafe/restaurant submissions in either the instructions or FAQ to emphasize that they should not be insta-reject. They need to be considered on their merits.
I agree that the onus is on the submitter to justify the submission, but my experience has been that the bar is currently set unreasonably high. Multi-award-winning restaurants should not require four high quality submissions to make it through review. But they do.
My best advice to the OP and anyone else who wants to submit this type of place is to find an article in the local paper or online equivalent about the place and use that as your supporting photo. It's a restaurant. It has pedestrian access or it'd be out of business. You don't really need to prove pedestrian access with the supporting photo. Sadly, too many reviewers won't read, won't Google and won't follow links provided in the supporting info. So you have to put the proof of "local gathering spot" right in the photos (without putting any humans in the photos).
@AgentB0ss-ING but you are making up the special bit, YOUhave decided opposite of generic means it needs to be Special, you have ignored what I posted directly from the helps guidelines
Directly from the AMA's. While again doesnt mention special, it does show you need to prove why its worthy of a waypoint. How you define significant may vary from person to person. So again its up to you to demonstrate without a doubt it deserves it. Thats all my point comes down to. Between this AMA and the January clarification it will likely be tough to get a Cafe approved without external resources proving its "significant".
Q51: How unique does a business have to be to not be rejected as a “generic business”? I’ve been told that reject reasoning is specific to chain restaraunts/businesses, but I get a restaraunt rejected that is a hot-spot. How cultural/historic does a business have to be in order to be accepted?
A51: NIA OPS replied with, “It would depend on the combination of the Title/Description/Photo used. If the Restaurant is a significant location in the city, explaining that in the description might help the reviewers take the right call.”
I have to agree with @TheFarix-PGO . I always consider restaurants/cafes that aren't chains, but MOST of the descriptions I see are just "Great coffee! Popular place in the community!" And... that's it. It might be a good candidate but a lot of people just do not really explain it all very well.
Or is it just some place to grab a sandwich and a coffee because theres nothing better around?
I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with accepting the place where people grab a bite to eat if it is the best gathering place in your community, provided it's not a chain fast food place.
I guess there is a 5 point spectrum between generic business and hyper-local hotspot.
For me a 1-star reject would be chain fast food restaurant or a convenience store food bar and a 5-star accept would be the highly regarded award winning restaurant featured in travel guides or the quirky, unique place that has fun theming or the one that has a true historic claim to fame.
In between in the 3-star range is the local mom & pop diner with a decent cup of coffee and a tasty burger, fried chicken platter, and pancake breakfast or the local sit-down Chinese restaurant or a similar type venue that has shown to be permanent, you know, a place that's been around for a few years and established a place in the community. It really shouldn't be a very high hurdle to clear to be rated a 2-3 star restaurant instead of a 1-star generic business reject.
Most local restaurants I end up giving 2/3* because I really can't tell from the submission that it stands out from the average cafe/restaurant. Unless it's a chain I rarely give 1*, but I don't get many submissions that are obvious 5* or that many that are really even 4*.
I'm going to specifically address the following from this post
Generic businesses should not be approved.
This is simply a false statement. No where in the guidelines does it state to reject generic businesses. Generic businesses are not listed among the Ineligible Wayspots criteria. So being a generic business does not disqualify a business as a Wayspot if it meets one or more of the Eligibility Wayspots criteria. What the guideline states is that generic businesses are not automatically eligible by simply existing. Not more than that. So stop treating it like it is a disqualifying condition.
You are arguing the wrong point and twisting the meaning of my post. A generic business does not qualify and thus should not be approved. You are right if it meets a criteria then it should be approved, but you would be approving that criteria not the business itself.
Unique Architecture? Not approving the Business but the Architecture. Mural/Painting/Sculpture/Art Installation at a Business? You are approving the Art not the Business. No where did I say because its a generic business is it disqualified from having a Waypoint.
Generally if you are approving a business for the business its not longer classified as Generic and otherwise you are approving some other criteria. Plenty of businesses can qualify but they generally have something important or noteworthy about them. In no way am I hating on waypoints at businesses. I love a good nomination at a business when someone puts in effort.
@AgentB0ss-ING straight away that ama is based ina it answer, this is not a city we are discussing, its rural/suburb/village. And again, Imyoure basing tour argument on business needs to be generic or special, this isnt a one or the other argument, because that argument should be aimed at cities. I have taken directly from the guidelines if it's a local place where locals gather that wouldnt be known to the outside community then ot should be considered, which most local cafes, bars and resteraunts will be, just because you personally dont lime the Ken's I your area or find them mediocre, doesnt mean that they are to the locals around it.if wre is a one off cafe that has been round for decades, guess what it's most likely goi g to be popular with the locals as its bent hwre for that long so locals will know of and frequent it. It may not be hyper local.spot, but hyper local pretty much goes at odds with local gathering spot that would be lesser known to outside community. Am I saying that all cafes or resteraunts or bars should be accepted? No, I'm saying ones that are in areas where theybare mos likely the only one for a half hour walk, have been there for decades and have locals visiting regularly should be given fair consideration so long as these pints are explained in the description, and even better if some level of supporting info cam be given with a link but highly doubtful there will be.
I can even give 2 examples. Theres a cafe near me, 20 minute walk, ut has been around since the 60s, same name, used regularly for both a cafe and a function suite, its name even comes from the history of the building being a small bank, that would fit criteria I suggested and guidelines
A resteraunt near me is the only one around for 4 miles, it would have been acceptable up till 4 years ago as it was a popular place for.locals and had been round for decades, but it changed name, so now I would not accept it as fitting criteria
The reviewers taking the right call lol.
Never have I ever had so much contempt for people as I do for Niantic & reviewers.