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Just now it's actually "wheres my portal" rather than pokestop, seeing as that's the one no one can understand just now
Welcome, the post provided some good insight on what is happening. Looking forward to being able to manage edits and photo submissions, it's painful trying to do this manually lol
Just some feedback on the post, keep in mind Wayfarer is global, it is winter here, not summer. Plus the date format can confuse people outside of America ("(target release date 9/8/2021)"), is that 9 August? It already passed! Oh wait, it's September 8th. So perhaps keep the language geographically neutral so it makes sense no matter who is reading it.
New Features for Contribution Management: The “Nominations” page will be renamed “Contributions”, and will see many new features that we think you’ll love. In particular, more control over how your Upgrades are applied, appealing your rejected nominations, and tracking the status and impact of all your contribution types (e.g. edits, nominations, photo submissions). Think of this as your Explorer archives and your one-stop-shop for tracking your impact across Niantic games. We’re actually really excited about the concept of an archive of your adventures and are already researching more ways to evolve the Contribution Management experience next year.
From a personal standpoint, I think it eas mostly positive. Bit vague knt he what's to come in terms of how long it's anticipated being, like i would really want to know when the upgrades bei g auto assigned will be changed and when we will be able to see our edits in queue (though, do t know how tjat will help if edits still take a year to get voted on) but good to k ow those are coming (at least the didn't say soon tm)
The one negative I have is the very copy and paste answer for wheres my waypoint, I know they can't admit to the cells (though it's like the worst kept secret ever) but at least say something about the portals not coming online
“Make Wayfarer an app!” 🤳
We know there’s room for improvement when it comes to addressing how psychologically different it can feel when using a responsive web-app vs. a native app. Most of you experience Wayfarer on your mobile phones and expect more of a native app experience. We’ve heard this request in the wild for some time, so we’re assessing it very carefully, including possible new features that would be better supported by a native app, making it an indispensable companion for your real-world adventures.
The irony here is, I am tired of "just another app" syndrome in today's modern age, when Operation Portal Recon came out, prior to Wayfarer, the web interface has, and is a preferred method for reviewing.
However, a BIG problem that Wayfarer brought was the inclusion of pokemon go players into a central system, some, and by some, a very large group, are still continuing to manipulate the system, which has seen increased damage in how Wayspots are are Loaded in other games, such as Ingress and Catan World Explorers Transformers Heavy Metal.
How can us honest Nominators and Reviewers from both Ingress and Pokémon GO trust that a separate app will curtail the significant and blatant manipulation of the system?
Sure in Operation Portal Recon there was some manipulation at the time from some Ingress players, however it was still better than Wayfarer, even now.
TIP: Small frequent contact establishes much better stronger relationships than waiting months for a large one
Final Note - Where is my Wayspot in the game?
We see some ongoing confusion around why you are receiving wayspot acceptance notifications from a game but aren’t seeing the Wayspot in that particular game. Please be reminded that each Niantic game (not Wayfarer) chooses which Wayspots to use from the Niantic platform, and are at liberty to modify their gameboard at any time.
Wayfarer does not control how each game utilizes Wayspots. Games may also sync with Wayfarer’s Wayspots in a different cadence to each other, which Wayfarer also does not control or mandate. We hope this becomes more intuitively understood with our email refresh mentioned above!
This is deeply worrying, and no wonder it is at the end.
The different “cadence” and the other wording makes me think that there may now be a randomness as to whether an accepted POI appears or not in any one game. The responsibility is also being diverted to each game, so no one place to resolve.
A key motivation is that I will get some in game acknowledgment of the effort I have put in.
So in ingress the fact that I will possibly not get a portal key or an increase in the discovery of an new portals is a big demotivater.
I would like this spelt out in plain honest unambiguous language. I’m guessing that because it is said to be in the hands of the other games there will be no response, and we will be kept in the dark.
@PkmnTrainerJ-ING the thread on why no fix for some wayspots are not appearing in the Other Games, still seems to be ignored.
A pokestop goes, no Portal
A portal goes live no pokestop
A wayspot from either game, doesn't appear in games which have no access to nominations or Wayfarer.
Keeping in mind that we are stating, that all other reasons why it might not, are not valid, some no other wayspot for 50m in said game, the other game does
These are the common complaints that I regularly see in local chat, reddit, Facebook, Twitter etc
@NianticDanbocat thanks for your Info, sadly you are wrong about the Last Part of your Text (Where is my wayspot)
This needs to be connected to the Games. This is sort of continuing to ignore the customer and refering Them to an ingame Support (i.e Talk to the Wall)
Welcome, @NianticDanbocat - it was a pleasure indeed to read your post, written in delightfully clear and vivid language with no hint of a script in sight!
I do hope that the stars aren't the only thing fixed in the Wayfarer visual display: the font size also got smaller, fields are confined to tiny tiles with lots of blank space left over, and there's the flash-effect issue that's actually a physical danger to the photosensitive among us. I hope that accessibility issues such as these are taken into effect, although they may not be a problem for all reviewers. I'm one of the ones that generally reviews on a larger computer screen, and still I squint. I'm old, of course, but still capable of some great submissions and reviews!
Hi @rodensteiner-ING , @Grogyan-ING , @Elijustrying-ING
I thought I'd poke my head in to the forum tonight in case there were more questions I could respond to (I'll be pretty swamped tomorrow otherwise). I'm sorry to have caused deep concern and feeling like I was brushing you off...😅 I wasn't. Please let me try again without my inner copy-paste robot manifesting!
Wayfarer has always been purposed as a program to welcome the community to voluntarily and collectively decide which Wayspot nominations get accepted into Niantic's geodata platform, alongside Niantic's additions from time to time. The platform hosts other types of geographic data for all of Niantic's game developers to access. I think of it as a kitchen pantry for creative chefs. We are working together to keep this pantry stocked with fresh ingredients, such as Wayspots. Game developers ultimately decide on how to use the Wayspot database as they see fit, and at what time they schedule any syncs to the platform, as you have aptly observed. I would not say this is random at all. I'm just saying it was never Wayfarer's purpose to make that call. At this time, I don't believe that enforcing which Wayspots to use across all Niantic games gives the game developers the creative freedom they need.
And as I noted, I know the way we have branded the notification emails and the wording within them were not crisp, and conflated 'accepted into the platform' with 'accepted into the game' and you're really just concerned about your game rewards. It is totally understandable that you are frustrated, and we're going to clean that up. We know you want better ways to track your contributions, so we are designing these too. Please note that features/improvements I've listed won't affect how games decide which Wayspots to use (that has always been separate as I've explained above).
Hope that helps!
Ah yes, we have all of these things noted as well and we are investigating. I'll be soliciting @NianticTintino 's help to keep you posted on this.
Wayfarer has always been purposed as a program to welcome the community to voluntarily and collectively decide which Wayspot nominations get accepted into Niantic's geodata platform,
You mentioned that you're waiting for your own nomination to be approved. May I inquire which game(s) you used for that/those? Did you get the impression you're nominating for a platform or for a game you used for nominating?
The unclear emails are an irritating minor detail, the misleading nomination process is the bigger source of discontent.
Honestly, the only thing I want to k ow is if ingress is planned to get the portals that passed (and aren't near anything) but didn't get in game are not there because of sync issues (and if so, will they when that's sorted) or if there's some new rule that you can't tell us but some smart boffins will work out. Because a couple of the portals I got passed that didn't appear in game were not near anything, nor were they in particularly heavy portal area. And honestly, I wouldnt mind so much but one of them had been in queue/voting for over a year and I have another 6-8 things around that area that will obviously take longer, I'd hate to have waited 3 years for these to pass o ly for them not to appear in game
Can you just go talk with the person that made the Wayfarer+ plug-in? Id love to see a decent dark mode and the translate button (i get to review nominations from 6 countrys here) for example.
Also i would make a system that incetivises reviewing more. Especially the PoGO community. Its so big, but most of them dont bother with wayfarer cause the reward (1 upgrade every 100 agreements) is too small. Especially if it then gets instantly shot down for no good reason. Either offer more upgrades, or maybe ingame stuff like poffins or rare candys. COINS even. Were literally doing work for you, you might aswell pay for it.
When i submit i do Not separate between ing and pgo. I have a backlog of hundert of wayspots that have Not Been resolved
i.dont even Know which came from what.
Now after years that the sync happend to ing and pgo you Tell us that this should be separate?
On the "Where is my Wayspot in the game?" question, the other side of new nominations not showing up in the game is that it's also easy to make new nominations that duplicate existing wayspots because there was no indication that it existed during the submission process.
Given the review system seems to be bogged down, it'd be great if it was easier to not submit obvious duplicates. Something like the Ingress Intel map but with all wayspots and no game-specific overlays would be great. Alternatively, provide an option to display those extra wayspots in game as extra pins on the map.
"the misleading nomination process is the bigger source of discontent"
I agree. Also, the complete lack of transparency and in-game communication when it comes to mechanics surrounding new Pokéstops. There are hidden mechanics that determine whether your nomination wil actually appear in-game and you don't really have any other choice but to use third-party apps and sites. I'll illustrate with an actual example.
So I visited a village while on a hiking trip. On the main square, there were 4 perfectly eligible things: a church, a cross in front of the church, a World War memorial and a small playground. This layout is extremely common in small settlements in Central-Eastern Europe. The only Pokéstop in the village was the church.
Now what would be the normal reaction? "Great, I'll nominate the other 3 and make the local game map actually playable." But we all know that it's not that easy. You have to be aware of several things to make the most out of the situation.
You have to know that
None of this information is available in-game or during the nomination process. If you've never visited forums specifically about this (this Forum, reddit, Discord groups etc.), you would never know about these fundamental rules.
So in my case, the cross was clearly closer to the church stop than 20 metres, that one was immediately visible. I also checked Intel Map (thanks to a friend who plays Ingress as well) and there were no hidden Wayspots. Great news (that I wouldn't be able to check without haveing access to a feature of a game that I don't play, though). However, the entrance of the playground, which is the most obvious point to place the marker, also seems to be less than 20 metres from the WW memorial. Also (having checked cells in another out-of-game source), the entrance of the playground is in the same S2 cell as the church - the back side is not. So, thanks to my knowledge about several hidden mechanics and third-party sources, you could nominate the playground (placing the marker on the swing set, which is a perfectly acceptable place as well) and the memorial. A new stop and a new Gym created that makes the village main square actually playable.
What would have happened had I not known anything about these and nominated just based on information that was available in-game and during the nomination process? I would've definitely wasted a nomination on the cross. Also, if the playground (which I would've placed at the entrance) was accepted first, the memorial would've possible been too close and no new in-game object would have appeared in my game of choice, despite all 4 objects being perfectly eligible. That is a major issue that can cause serious - and understandable - frustration. Also, this would negatively impact Ingress and the Wayspot database as well, because the (otherwise very eligible) memorial would be permanently blocked from entering any game for no reason, just because the marker of the playground was placed at the wrong spot.
The cell and proximity rules are well known and well-understood. We, as a community, have figured them out years ago. Still, Niantic apparently doesn't even want to acknowledge them, which makes no sense. They can't keep it a secret (anyone with a browser can read up on it right now) and it doesn't benefit them at all. The only result of keeping in obscure is negative: the Wayfarer backlog is full of duplicates that could have been avoided, as well as nominations that will obviously never make it to any game because they're too close to existing Wayspots. The Forums are full of people asking the same few questions that they have no way of knowing based on information available in-game. Players become frustrated and angry, which is never a good thing when it's a game feature that is supposed to be making the game better.
In my opinion, the solution is fairly simple. Make the mechanics that determine whether a Wayspot will go live in the game you nominate in completely transparent. Educate players instead of leaving them in the dark. I know that we'll be able to see "hidden" Wayspots during the nomination process in the future, which is a great thing. However, it's not enough. Show us the cells determining whether a Wayspot will appear in our game. Show us the proximity range within which there's no point in nominating anything. This would reduce the number of duplicates, pointless too-close-anyway nominations and abuse ("please move the playground to the North so that I can nominate a memorial, thanks"). It would also feel like we (the players) are taken seriously by Niantic and not treated like 4-year-old children who can't be trusted understand basic rules.
I understand what @NianticDanbocat meant when writing "Wayfarer does not control how each game utilizes Wayspots". I understand that they want to keep the Wayfarer data management separate from game maps. However, I think that this separation is not realistic. As I illustrated above, game-map realted decisions have major impact on Wayfarer. These systems are fundamentally linked and these processes cannot be kept separate.
@NianticDanbocat how did you expand the team by exchanging Casey for Tintino? Is Tintino a big boy and counts therefore as one and a half Caseys?
And maybe a bit off-topic, probably this won't be answered, does Giffard have any connections to Japan? Many of us believe he is playing favoritism with reporters from Japan.
Also, I would urge anybody upset with the recent Wayfarer changes to the nominations page to up-vote here, because we need to see Google Street View on our own nominations (e.g. to check if a Google Photosphere is live):
The counter argument against this is that people would be able to abuse the system more if they knew the details. But the problem here is that everyone already knows how things work, so people that want to abuse will do their cell manipulation, while people that don't know about the hidden rules are left with the frustration.
Exactly. Withholding this information from submitters doesn't actually prevent any abuse regarding proximity and cell rules. (The current system that doesn't allow cell rules being played by moving does, though.) It only punishes honest submitters who only use the information that's made available to them in-game. Also, it makes it much harder to discuss such abuse, because we can't talk about these things openly with Niantic, we have to tiptoe around the topic. It makes no sense and I see no real reason to keep these things "secret".
I'm really satisfy with theses annoncements.
Now i will just wait to see how they will implement that.
For me, I have mostly always understood and explain that we as nominators, nominate for Niantics Waypoint Database and not for the games. But it has always been rather frustrating that ever since PoGo nominations opened up, the nomination process for PoGo has nominators nominating "Pokestops" and the full and complete language is about Pokemon. Not once is Wayfarer nor other Niantic games mentioned. Which directly affects how nominations are made using Pokemon specific terms. And actually the same goes for nominations made in Ingress.
This has already been addressed here.
New features: We’re innovating the contribution experience in-game, including the ability to see what Wayspots have already been approved during the Wayspot nomination process in Pokémon GO.
I really dissagree with this argument. If the location is valid, its valid. If you manipulate the location so its in a different cell, but still on the playground then whats the problem? It creates an extra POI in the game you want and its still within the playgrounds bounds.
If you move it outside of the playgrounds bounds then it either gets rejected, or reviewers correct it (part of the proces). I personally know of places that didnt get a gym because of this in PoGO cause its 2 meters on the wrong side of the line, but the actual POI that its about runs for another 10. Its actually game spoilage IMO.
Sure you nominate for Niantics waypoint database, but thats not the way to look at it. If it wasnt for the games you wouldnt do it. Unless you were hired and payed to.
You are actually agreeing with me, but ok.
Anyway, there are a lot of situations where cells are manipulated in a bad way as well. People move objects far away from the real location so that they are in an empty cell (sometimes even openly saying in the nomination "object is misplaced to be in a empty cell", and the local community approves it). We also have seen situations in which reviewers moved an object to a worse place (a secundary door of a restaurant, or moving from the entrance to behind a bench in a playfield) apparently only to move it to cell that already has something else (ie: avoiding a new POI in PGO).
It is an abuse, and there is no point in denying it, but making things "secret" and hiding information is a very inefficient way of fighting the abuse. People that want to abuse will abuse, people that are new and don't know about the rules are left with the frustration.
@NianticDanbocat First let me add my voice and thank you for the update, I also love that you have jumped into the fray with us to add to these discussions. It breaths a bit of level headedness and it also feels a lot less like decrees from on high with this approach. I'll echo something someone else says; it humanizes the process and your team when we see you hop in a discussion with actual dialgue rather then what feels like a copy and pasted response that doesn't really address the core discussion points at all. I think most of understand this will not be a daily thing but we appreciate the efforts and hopefully we will "see" you and your team mix it up with us on a more regular basis. We are a passionate group but when left unchecked it gets a little rowdy in here.
I also loved to read that you have also been submitting wayspot candidates. Knowing there is someone working with us that can sympathize and has been involved in the process is amazing to hear. Not sure how you haven't used your powers to get your submissions to the front of the line already!
I have a slightly different take on where the issues lie then some folks here. I deal with the all the same problems, long queue times, upgrades applied at the wrong time to a random submissions, absurd rejections of legitimate candidates and false or mismatched reasoning, issues getting through valid candidates based on their type (IE local restaurants and gyms regardless of how good a write up you submit). I just had billiard hall rejected for not meeting criteria, being a private residence or farm, and low quality photo (none of which were true). However, as I said, I look at the problem a bit differently. I view these more of symptoms rather then as the affliction themselves.
To me these issues arise from separate "enhancements" that have been added to wayfarer over the years, that in a vacuum appear to be wonderful. However there is a difference between how a developer will view a new feature unplugged from the database and ultimately how it will be view and used in a real world setting. For example, earned upgrades, review cooldowns, and queue times.
Upgrades for example on their own seem like a fantastic idea, rewarding folks for their hard work. However because of long queue times in certain places the only way to get something through is with an earned upgrade. But in order to earn that upgrade you need agreements. While we don't know the exact algorithm used to determine when something reaches agreement; based off of some intuitive wayfarers reporting and my own experiences, its safe to say that wayfarer is not a majority rule voting system. No votes carry more weight then yes votes. So the fastest way to gain agreements is reject anything that isn't a solid 5 star; IE church, playground, gazebo, etc. those reviewers are known as "agreement fishers". However they to want to avoid the dreaded 24 hour cooldown. Some folks believe that one of the ways to do that is to vary the rejection reasons. Whether that is true or false matters not, they do it. So these fishers quickly gain agreements and are rewarded with their upgrade which gets applied to their shoe-in candidate, while Joe Nominator has his local coffee shop rejected for being a explicit location. The other issue with upgrades (sounds like this will change soon, fingers crossed) is that a poorly timed earned upgrade will randomly be applied to something that you really wanted to keep local, for whatever reason.
Now, obviously these "reviewers" are not using the system as intended but these things create a snowball effect. There also has been a lot of discussion on the forums around throughput. Less reviewers mean things take longer, which adds to queue times and has a detrimental effect down the line. Even if the legitimate active reviewers reviewed 20-25% more monthly it will still not compare to the throughput available by having 20-25% more active reviewers. However, getting an email that you're submission was denied because it had a farm animal in the photo, when its a memorial bench easily drives people away. It sours them to the process altogether and they give up. I have seen this in mass with my local PoGo group. We had 10-15 active reviewers last fall, we have a handful that still participate today. Three or four of us can never match what a dozen reviewers could do.
Also by thinning out the pool of reviewers you now give fishers even more power and they continue to gain agreements, their wayfarer rating continues to improve giving them positive feedback for poor reviewing habits. The Snowball continues.
I could continue this analogy but hopefully you are getting the picture. It sounds like there are things in the works that will treat the symptoms. Upgrades will no longer be applied automatically, emails will be revamped, etc. My hope is that you and your team don't miss correcting the "affliction" that causes the symptoms and focus on the real world application of enhancements and not how they work in a vacuum.
While trying to educate the populace before they ever start is a noble endeavor and may have some effect, making the whole process more user friendly, more intuitive, more efficient, and guiding reviewers and submitters along the along the way to me is more effective. Make the education seamless within the submission and review process and reinforce what they need to know.
Hopefully this is helpful and offers another perspective. Thanks again for sticking your nose in here. Lots of ggod things coming from Niantic over the last couple of days. Listening to your player base, ie your customers is always the best way to move forward. Looking forward to what's next.