That's still pretty uncivil. There's no reason to get upset and use swear words over this. I assumed that kind of language wasn't allowed in the forum, so I haven't tried to use any, but clearly you're fine with it.
People are upset at being exposed for being the uncouth individuals they are so they are frantically begging Niantic to close this topic. Sad. I believe it's in Niantic's interest to have this iniquity exposed.
It is unfortunate that there are people who are taking the words of this group above the words of Niantic. Sadly, Niantic lacks good communication skills so I can see how such a group would be allowed to become as successful as it has done. Now I see why some of my restaurant and local bakery nominations struggle.
I'm with you that Niantic should be more attentive to the forum, however the accusation that the thread was posted with any sort of timing in mind, is once again false. I posted this just about as soon as possible after the Facebook admins continued their disinformation campaign yesterday. The post was then filtered (because of the images) and then sat in queue for some time before Niantic approved it in the middle of the night.
I can't control when Niantic approves my posts and when they do and don't pay attention to the forum. Frankly, if Niantic moderated the forum better, some of the commenters in this thread may have been prevented from becoming irate.
The claim that "authoritative" employees don't work odd hours is also incorrect. Giffard regularly works is on the forum during nights and weekends.
No, we’re calling for this thread to be closed because it’s an personal-attack-based post, which itself is against ToS. It’s not about Wayfarer, it’s about third party forums that Niantic cannot in any way themselves police, so it’s off-topic. It’s inflammatory content led to personal attacks against @Hosette-ING , which is again both absolutely foreseeable and entirely against ToS.
Hosette has already been accused of lying, when actions of other admins were being ascribed to her. Further attacks ensued. This thread has been off the raids from the initial get-go, and perhaps @NianticTintino or @NianticDanbocat should have a pointed conversation with the staff member that approved the post in the first place.
It's not a personal attack to point out where users are flaunting breaking the established rules on multiple levels and encouraging others to do so.
Neither is is a personal attack to point out when someone has made multiple posts when they claim to have been too busy to pay attention to internet posting.
No attack I just think your post was misguided, intentionally antagonistic, for effect and did not add to the conversation. Misquoting something intentionally for effect is not what I would call being part of a civil conversation.
I also think it odd that folks are asking to have this closed when it clearly demonstrates an issue that as the potential to negatively effect all of us. It’s an odd position to ask that it be closed because you disagree. There are merits to the discussion regardless of whether some people see them or agree with them.
If you don’t think the OP is accurate make a case. I think there are several times raise that warrant further discussion among the community and also some sort of intervention via Niantic.
I believe you're misconstruing the original post of the topic. The topic is shedding light on the ills of a Facebook group and now the higher ups in that group are panicking. I understand people from that group want to do damage control, of course.
So here’s the timeline, and you’re the one digging in that it’s not a personal attack?
Hosette submitted a nomination
It was discovered and posted to a group that she happens to moderate
The wayspot was approved
Much (extensive and unneeded) commentary resulted
Niantic staff noticed, and corrective action was taken on the wayspot
She posted a very public question trying to clarify what Niantic means by “third party”
Niantic answered
Multiple people repeated that answer in multiple places. I’ve seen it on these forums, on the same Facebook group as well as the second-largest one for Wayfarer. It has NOT gone unnoticed
other non-Hosette Facebook group admins have been doing their jobs, to minimize hostility, by closing down redundant threads that continue to attack Hosette
OP and others continue to feel enough anger against her, that they continue to post threads like this one. It feels like unwarranted personal attacks
Everything ought to otherwise have settled down and we all moved on. Not even the MULTIPLE threads from the unmentionable ghost-of-Dundalk ended up being this widespread, and @NianticCasey-ING made sure to shut THOSE down ASAP. But historically, for those who have been paying attention to that for as many years as myself, NONE OF THOSE Dundalk-related threads were ever shut down over the weekend. Any time he posted on late-Friday or on the weekend, he had hundreds of comments that had to be deleted. Because he abused the forums’ moderators’ schedules in a way that allowed them to go unnoticed until the following Monday
So yes, regardless of your post-hoc say so, I continue to be suspicious as to the timing of the posting of this thread. And I’ve called for this thread to be shut down from the moment I saw it.
I didn’t otherwise post anything publicly into the thread until I saw the absolute absurdity of the accusations, calling Hosette a liar amongst other things.
A member of that group posted a screenshot from reviewing it, saying the copy and pasted decision made it a 1* decision.
The wayspot was approved
The post about the description being against criteria had the comments turned off, but not Hosette's post
Multiple users in this forum posted about whether copy and pasting in descriptions is within criteria
Niantic staff noticed, and corrective action was taken on the description
Niantic answered
Multiple people repeated that answer only to have their posts deleted and comments turned off.
Facebook group admins who are purposefully keeping themselves anonymous deleted posts of people who asked questions and posted the clarification.
Admins (including Hosette) never unlocked comments after clarification from Niantic or apologized to those who were punished unfairly.
OP posted this because of the continued attempts by the admins of that group to misinform members and punish those who are only trying to inform other wayfarer users of the proper criteria.
I would suggest that individuals who do not want their truthfulness called into doubt shouldn't make statements that conflict with known facts.
No one, at any point, has made personal attacks on Hosette. Describing the actions and statements she and others have made are not personal attacks, and it's frankly offensive that you keep insinuating that it is.
4: yes much unneeded confusion was created by the admin.
4.5: the admin herself requested clarification
5.5: a simple clarification screenshot was shared in the FB group FOR THE FIRST TIME and propmptly removed without a single word.
8: Multiple people posted THE CLARIFICATION... one by one as they were getting removed... only after multiple posts was ONE of them left to remain, not the first or the second instance of the clarification but the final one.
9: non Hosette admins (allegedly) have been deleting and muting all questions asking why posts were removed.
9.5: an announcement was made saying the topic is closed and no further discussions will be had (AFTER 1st instance posts were removed and multiple people muted).
10: people are angered at the repeated lies, deleted clarifications, questions, censorship and lack of exposing the TRUE criteria.
11: everything should have settled down, but the group refuses to take ownership of their mistakes and refused to clarify the criteria and unmute those trying to spread the true criteria.
I saw the original Facebook post. It was by a member, and Hosette commented within the thread that she had submitted it. Title was something about “how to turn a 5* nomination into a 1*”
So your version of the timeline is decidedly wrong on that point.
Me eliding irrelevant details is not me being “wrong” it’s me being “concise” about trivialities.
None of which is germane to the point, that you continue to keep this thread open in an “accusatory attack” mode, and risk having actions taken against your forums account. This has happened multiple times to that fellow from Dundalk.
I might be in that worldwide wayfarer group, dunno if I stayed in and muted it or left. Either way doesn't matter, I'm looking at this from an outsider, seeing both sides if the argument on this forum. In my personal opinion, while I actually didn't think what hosette did by copying a quote from the artist was bad (actually quite liked it tbh) it's clear noantic didn't want that. The issue then comes that on this fb page, admins are muting/locking off/removing the posts calling it out, leading g to people believing jts being censored. Now, censoring without giving reasons for it straight away lead to speculation, and that's what's caused this falling out. People will assume the admins are protecting their own. If what you are saying is true, then you should have been upfront and said you were doing it to stop the page getting bogged down, then this might have been mitigated greatly, won't have stopped the grumbling, but might have lessened them severely
That being said, from what I've also read in this lengthy argument, it does seem that some admins aren't as clued up on the guidelines as tbey perhaps need to be (someone mentioned that an admin on the fb page thinks cafes and resteraunts should be rejected on sight, or something to thst effect). So maybe the admins should commit to re reading the guidelines? Would be a good first step to a peace offering
You forgot a few but number 12 is a BIIIIG miss so I'll add it for you.
12. Start a deflect, distract, and misinform campaign to derail the topic and then ask for the topic to be closed because its going nowhere
There, that looks better.
Honestly, I think a lot of the "rush to defense" is fluff and the fact that this has come out really lends credence to the original argument. There is abuse happening, anyone arguing that this is a personal attack, to me seems like they have a personal vested interest with either the parties or are of like mind on the intent behind the parties. To simply ignore how the unnamed admins have handled this with the FB group in their response is to ignore the issue all together, which to me means that you are deflecting.
So I'll say again If you disagree with the original posted comments substance, then make your case. Anything else I would consider irrelevant to the conversation and an attempt to deflect and ignore the issues that have been brought up; which if true and really disturbing and EVERYONE should be pissed. It quite literally diminishes your vote and everything you do here. Assuming this is all true and you aren't furious, I think raises more questions personally.
A Pokémon player makes a post here in these forums because their edits to OSM haven’t been updated into the game map yet, and they are upset that their new gym doesn’t have its “EX Gym” tag. The thread gets removed by Niantic, because it was off-topic. Yet still, other players accuse Niantic of censorship because, having no other map-related forums run by Niantic in which to complain, they otherwise cannot complain to Niantic. (Note that this is NOT a hypothetical analogy.)
The Wayfarer forums run here by Niantic are NOT a proper location to vent about non-Niantic services. This entire thread is entirely off-topic here.
But if it had been instead posted to reddit or elsewhere on Facebook? No issues. Go hog wild.
And directly in this thread, Hosette had been essentially accused of being party to the independent actions of other admins in that group. That accusation constitutes harassment, as does the angry original post, and by the letter-of-the-ToS it’s a violation of your privileges here in the forums.
The topic of discussion is specifically about wayfarer, and how some users appear to be using social media to purposefully mislead others about the criteria from Niantic.
Hosette has only been named because she is the one who made the initial submission, posted about it on Facebook in the group she admins and posted here asking for criteria clarification. The admin who made the post saying discussion of the criteria wasn't relevant kept themselves anonymous, so there is no way to know whether or not Hosette made that post. Only the admins of the group know who deleted posts and punished members for asking questions.
No one has made any personal attacks towards Hosette, or harassed her in any way, and the only user who has gotten angry is you.
Correct, bad analogy, Like apples to swordfish bad analogy.
This is exactly the place to talk about the potential for systematic abuse within wayfarer by users from outside means. THAT IS THE ARGUMENT. No one specifically called out Hosette, they were the ones that even went as far to hop in here and raise their hand as the party being described. @AisforAndis-ING was very clear in their original post that Niantic has already had to intervene with this group before, so even Niantic, in the past, agrees that this is the correct place to discuss this topic.
If true the actions of the admins in this group go direct to some of the issues us regular users are seeing on a day to day, week to week, and month to month basis. Its something that the new product folks and admins for wayfarer need to be acutely aware of as they try to make improvements, efficiencies, and features to this platform. As I described that unseen thumb on the scales, if that potential abuse is not brought to the light then any fixes will be ineffective and lots of work will be for not.
Your analogy is not just bad, but it is not even an analogy to the situation. In your scenario, the admins of this forum would be removing non-wayfarer content on a wayfarer forum.
Furthermore, you are arguing in favor of wayfarer content being removed from the wayfarer Facebook group, which does not match your analogy.
This post is not a "venting" post. People that have been able to stay civil have realized that this is a major problem that can potentially flip the results of whether nominations are approved or rejected. That is absolutely worthy of discussion on this forum.
I never named the player that you continue to name. You have done that yourself. In fact this is a far greater issue than the outcome of one players single nomination. This is about the actions of the Facebook group's entire admin team, including their efforts to hide Niantic's clarifications from 10,000 people, their refusal to remove and continuance to promote information that they learned to be incorrect, and their actions that deliberately broke the Niantic Terms of Service.
I am NOT saying that censorship or misinformation is good. What I AM continuing to maintain is that this post is off-topic, harassment, and inflammatory. It should never have been approved in the first place.
There are MANY places it could have been posted. But here, where it is inflammatory and constitutes harassment? It violates Niantic’s ToS. Perhaps try reddit, Facebook, Twitter, or a myriad of other possibilities.
The post is objective, on-topic, did not name any names, and was approved by Niantic. I would love to hear your definitions of inflammatory and harassment and how you think my summary of events is either of those things.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are the one who has named names, made accusations, and even had to censor yourself. Your accusations match your own actions better than anyone elses. At this point, if you are truly worried about this post and its civility, it would be best if you stopped commenting and raising it to the top of the forum, and we can agree to disagree.
”Facebook group moderators acted to remove inflammatory commentary from their groups” becomes twisted into “Facebook group admins are engaging in a disinformation campaign”, and you still don’t think the OP is engaging in harassment?
The matter about Niantic’s clarification had entirely been settled, and OP continued to press the issue, and you still don’t think the OP is engaging in harassment?
The accused Facebook moderator directly explained, and was then immediately called out for actions that had been taken by SOMEBODY ELSE, and you STILL don’t think it is harassment?
This forum is meant for talking about Wayfarer, not for harassing others. Go post on reddit if you must. Start your own Facebook group and moderate it as you see fit. But when your complaint REALLY amounts to being upset that moderators on a third-party forum are directly and immediately dealing with hostile users, instead of waiting until Monday when the bigger bosses are back at work?
Comments
Nothing was censored. I used the * key repeatedly. Any incivility was in your own mind.
That's still pretty uncivil. There's no reason to get upset and use swear words over this. I assumed that kind of language wasn't allowed in the forum, so I haven't tried to use any, but clearly you're fine with it.
People are upset at being exposed for being the uncouth individuals they are so they are frantically begging Niantic to close this topic. Sad. I believe it's in Niantic's interest to have this iniquity exposed.
It is unfortunate that there are people who are taking the words of this group above the words of Niantic. Sadly, Niantic lacks good communication skills so I can see how such a group would be allowed to become as successful as it has done. Now I see why some of my restaurant and local bakery nominations struggle.
I'm with you that Niantic should be more attentive to the forum, however the accusation that the thread was posted with any sort of timing in mind, is once again false. I posted this just about as soon as possible after the Facebook admins continued their disinformation campaign yesterday. The post was then filtered (because of the images) and then sat in queue for some time before Niantic approved it in the middle of the night.
I can't control when Niantic approves my posts and when they do and don't pay attention to the forum. Frankly, if Niantic moderated the forum better, some of the commenters in this thread may have been prevented from becoming irate.
The claim that "authoritative" employees don't work odd hours is also incorrect. Giffard regularly works is on the forum during nights and weekends.
No, we’re calling for this thread to be closed because it’s an personal-attack-based post, which itself is against ToS. It’s not about Wayfarer, it’s about third party forums that Niantic cannot in any way themselves police, so it’s off-topic. It’s inflammatory content led to personal attacks against @Hosette-ING , which is again both absolutely foreseeable and entirely against ToS.
Hosette has already been accused of lying, when actions of other admins were being ascribed to her. Further attacks ensued. This thread has been off the raids from the initial get-go, and perhaps @NianticTintino or @NianticDanbocat should have a pointed conversation with the staff member that approved the post in the first place.
*rails not raids, but if I edit the comment it goes hiding into moderation limbo, so meh
It's not a personal attack to point out where users are flaunting breaking the established rules on multiple levels and encouraging others to do so.
Neither is is a personal attack to point out when someone has made multiple posts when they claim to have been too busy to pay attention to internet posting.
No attack I just think your post was misguided, intentionally antagonistic, for effect and did not add to the conversation. Misquoting something intentionally for effect is not what I would call being part of a civil conversation.
I also think it odd that folks are asking to have this closed when it clearly demonstrates an issue that as the potential to negatively effect all of us. It’s an odd position to ask that it be closed because you disagree. There are merits to the discussion regardless of whether some people see them or agree with them.
If you don’t think the OP is accurate make a case. I think there are several times raise that warrant further discussion among the community and also some sort of intervention via Niantic.
I believe you're misconstruing the original post of the topic. The topic is shedding light on the ills of a Facebook group and now the higher ups in that group are panicking. I understand people from that group want to do damage control, of course.
Self censoring is still censoring. Just saying
So here’s the timeline, and you’re the one digging in that it’s not a personal attack?
So yes, regardless of your post-hoc say so, I continue to be suspicious as to the timing of the posting of this thread. And I’ve called for this thread to be shut down from the moment I saw it.
I didn’t otherwise post anything publicly into the thread until I saw the absolute absurdity of the accusations, calling Hosette a liar amongst other things.
that timeline contains false information as well as omits many steps.
Presumably you mean something in steps 8-11, which again is equivalent to calling her a liar?
You have the timeline wrong.
I would suggest that individuals who do not want their truthfulness called into doubt shouldn't make statements that conflict with known facts.
No one, at any point, has made personal attacks on Hosette. Describing the actions and statements she and others have made are not personal attacks, and it's frankly offensive that you keep insinuating that it is.
4: yes much unneeded confusion was created by the admin.
4.5: the admin herself requested clarification
5.5: a simple clarification screenshot was shared in the FB group FOR THE FIRST TIME and propmptly removed without a single word.
8: Multiple people posted THE CLARIFICATION... one by one as they were getting removed... only after multiple posts was ONE of them left to remain, not the first or the second instance of the clarification but the final one.
9: non Hosette admins (allegedly) have been deleting and muting all questions asking why posts were removed.
9.5: an announcement was made saying the topic is closed and no further discussions will be had (AFTER 1st instance posts were removed and multiple people muted).
10: people are angered at the repeated lies, deleted clarifications, questions, censorship and lack of exposing the TRUE criteria.
11: everything should have settled down, but the group refuses to take ownership of their mistakes and refused to clarify the criteria and unmute those trying to spread the true criteria.
I saw the original Facebook post. It was by a member, and Hosette commented within the thread that she had submitted it. Title was something about “how to turn a 5* nomination into a 1*”
So your version of the timeline is decidedly wrong on that point.
Me eliding irrelevant details is not me being “wrong” it’s me being “concise” about trivialities.
None of which is germane to the point, that you continue to keep this thread open in an “accusatory attack” mode, and risk having actions taken against your forums account. This has happened multiple times to that fellow from Dundalk.
I might be in that worldwide wayfarer group, dunno if I stayed in and muted it or left. Either way doesn't matter, I'm looking at this from an outsider, seeing both sides if the argument on this forum. In my personal opinion, while I actually didn't think what hosette did by copying a quote from the artist was bad (actually quite liked it tbh) it's clear noantic didn't want that. The issue then comes that on this fb page, admins are muting/locking off/removing the posts calling it out, leading g to people believing jts being censored. Now, censoring without giving reasons for it straight away lead to speculation, and that's what's caused this falling out. People will assume the admins are protecting their own. If what you are saying is true, then you should have been upfront and said you were doing it to stop the page getting bogged down, then this might have been mitigated greatly, won't have stopped the grumbling, but might have lessened them severely
That being said, from what I've also read in this lengthy argument, it does seem that some admins aren't as clued up on the guidelines as tbey perhaps need to be (someone mentioned that an admin on the fb page thinks cafes and resteraunts should be rejected on sight, or something to thst effect). So maybe the admins should commit to re reading the guidelines? Would be a good first step to a peace offering
The "original" facebook post was one made by Hosette, a day or so before the post with the review screenshot. It has not had it's comments turned off.
I've only seen one user threaten other users and act in an uncivil manner here, and it's not OP, that's for sure.
You forgot a few but number 12 is a BIIIIG miss so I'll add it for you.
12. Start a deflect, distract, and misinform campaign to derail the topic and then ask for the topic to be closed because its going nowhere
There, that looks better.
Honestly, I think a lot of the "rush to defense" is fluff and the fact that this has come out really lends credence to the original argument. There is abuse happening, anyone arguing that this is a personal attack, to me seems like they have a personal vested interest with either the parties or are of like mind on the intent behind the parties. To simply ignore how the unnamed admins have handled this with the FB group in their response is to ignore the issue all together, which to me means that you are deflecting.
So I'll say again If you disagree with the original posted comments substance, then make your case. Anything else I would consider irrelevant to the conversation and an attempt to deflect and ignore the issues that have been brought up; which if true and really disturbing and EVERYONE should be pissed. It quite literally diminishes your vote and everything you do here. Assuming this is all true and you aren't furious, I think raises more questions personally.
Let me make my point again by way of bad analogy.
A Pokémon player makes a post here in these forums because their edits to OSM haven’t been updated into the game map yet, and they are upset that their new gym doesn’t have its “EX Gym” tag. The thread gets removed by Niantic, because it was off-topic. Yet still, other players accuse Niantic of censorship because, having no other map-related forums run by Niantic in which to complain, they otherwise cannot complain to Niantic. (Note that this is NOT a hypothetical analogy.)
The Wayfarer forums run here by Niantic are NOT a proper location to vent about non-Niantic services. This entire thread is entirely off-topic here.
But if it had been instead posted to reddit or elsewhere on Facebook? No issues. Go hog wild.
And directly in this thread, Hosette had been essentially accused of being party to the independent actions of other admins in that group. That accusation constitutes harassment, as does the angry original post, and by the letter-of-the-ToS it’s a violation of your privileges here in the forums.
Not sure who you're talking to here, but nice of you to just plain ignore everything shared because you disagree with 1 point.
AFAIK the OP and many others are accusing the Admin group as a whole. I believe you're the first person as well to even tag said individual.
The topic of discussion is specifically about wayfarer, and how some users appear to be using social media to purposefully mislead others about the criteria from Niantic.
Hosette has only been named because she is the one who made the initial submission, posted about it on Facebook in the group she admins and posted here asking for criteria clarification. The admin who made the post saying discussion of the criteria wasn't relevant kept themselves anonymous, so there is no way to know whether or not Hosette made that post. Only the admins of the group know who deleted posts and punished members for asking questions.
No one has made any personal attacks towards Hosette, or harassed her in any way, and the only user who has gotten angry is you.
Correct, bad analogy, Like apples to swordfish bad analogy.
This is exactly the place to talk about the potential for systematic abuse within wayfarer by users from outside means. THAT IS THE ARGUMENT. No one specifically called out Hosette, they were the ones that even went as far to hop in here and raise their hand as the party being described. @AisforAndis-ING was very clear in their original post that Niantic has already had to intervene with this group before, so even Niantic, in the past, agrees that this is the correct place to discuss this topic.
If true the actions of the admins in this group go direct to some of the issues us regular users are seeing on a day to day, week to week, and month to month basis. Its something that the new product folks and admins for wayfarer need to be acutely aware of as they try to make improvements, efficiencies, and features to this platform. As I described that unseen thumb on the scales, if that potential abuse is not brought to the light then any fixes will be ineffective and lots of work will be for not.
Your analogy is not just bad, but it is not even an analogy to the situation. In your scenario, the admins of this forum would be removing non-wayfarer content on a wayfarer forum.
Furthermore, you are arguing in favor of wayfarer content being removed from the wayfarer Facebook group, which does not match your analogy.
This post is not a "venting" post. People that have been able to stay civil have realized that this is a major problem that can potentially flip the results of whether nominations are approved or rejected. That is absolutely worthy of discussion on this forum.
I never named the player that you continue to name. You have done that yourself. In fact this is a far greater issue than the outcome of one players single nomination. This is about the actions of the Facebook group's entire admin team, including their efforts to hide Niantic's clarifications from 10,000 people, their refusal to remove and continuance to promote information that they learned to be incorrect, and their actions that deliberately broke the Niantic Terms of Service.
I am NOT saying that censorship or misinformation is good. What I AM continuing to maintain is that this post is off-topic, harassment, and inflammatory. It should never have been approved in the first place.
There are MANY places it could have been posted. But here, where it is inflammatory and constitutes harassment? It violates Niantic’s ToS. Perhaps try reddit, Facebook, Twitter, or a myriad of other possibilities.
The post is objective, on-topic, did not name any names, and was approved by Niantic. I would love to hear your definitions of inflammatory and harassment and how you think my summary of events is either of those things.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are the one who has named names, made accusations, and even had to censor yourself. Your accusations match your own actions better than anyone elses. At this point, if you are truly worried about this post and its civility, it would be best if you stopped commenting and raising it to the top of the forum, and we can agree to disagree.
”Facebook group moderators acted to remove inflammatory commentary from their groups” becomes twisted into “Facebook group admins are engaging in a disinformation campaign”, and you still don’t think the OP is engaging in harassment?
The matter about Niantic’s clarification had entirely been settled, and OP continued to press the issue, and you still don’t think the OP is engaging in harassment?
The accused Facebook moderator directly explained, and was then immediately called out for actions that had been taken by SOMEBODY ELSE, and you STILL don’t think it is harassment?
This forum is meant for talking about Wayfarer, not for harassing others. Go post on reddit if you must. Start your own Facebook group and moderate it as you see fit. But when your complaint REALLY amounts to being upset that moderators on a third-party forum are directly and immediately dealing with hostile users, instead of waiting until Monday when the bigger bosses are back at work?