Restore Portal
killbilljoe-ING
Posts: 15 ✭✭
Title of the Wayspot: 白蘭樹
Location: 22.328861N, 114.209138E
City: Hong Kong
Country: China
Photos to support your claim:
to dispute the "claims" in this post:
1. The original plate is moved to a nearby location, with rust stains retained. Hence, it can deduce that this plate is not a new one but merely get it relocated.
2. At the very beginning, the author of the concerned post claimed that "the plate is removed". However in subsequent replies, the author claimed that "the plated is relocated". It shows the contradictory claims from the author where subsequent replies cannot support the appeal firmly.
3. Even if the plate is renewed, it does not come to a conclusion that the corresponding waypoint should be removed. According to the best practice within the wayfarer community, updating waypoint photo or conducting a scan is a preferred choice to keep waypoints being updated where games within niantic family provides ways as indicated above. Removing a waypoint because of renewing a plate simply jeopardizes the stability the wayfarer ecosystem and could not contribute the wayfarer ecosystem in a positive way.
While having other member stated a "Maths and Biology study group" supporting the decision, it's utterly irrelevant to the waypoint removal discussion. On top of those name calling statements towards other members, it degrades the quality of nomination discussion.
Making evidences precise and concise is the major factor on keeping the wayfarer community to grow in a healthy track, and I hope the points mentioned above can help Niantic staff to process and have a wise decision reflecting the reality at their suitable pace.
Comments
Here comes the “Author” of the previous concerned post. Yep it’s me :)
It might be a boredom to everyone else to see us responding to the dispute over and over again, I am glad that you found someone to write in proper language and context for you, and you are able to start a new thread to appeal the removal decision.
Hereby I will respond each and every single points you have been trying to demonstrate.
Accusation 1:
You have explained that the sign was merely relocated, with “rust stains” sustained.
First of all, as quoted in the previous thread, the sign was moved in accurate measurements of 7.15 meters.
More noteworthy is that, the “rusts stains” you have been trying to endorse seems to be on a waxy and neat surface, it is more likely to be electrolytes oxidising the iron fragments of the steel from the manufacturing process. Whilst the original old sign indicates rain-washing effect, where salts corrode the sign together with the words on it. Rusts are unrecoverable to its original shapes and features, you should have known it as a basic common sense of chemistry. It is not the same piece of metal.
Accusation 2:
You accused my thread that I made contradictory claims over the removal of the sign and later realising the relocation of the concerned object. The reason why you would think in such way, is that you are neither the recipient of portal removal confirmation emails, nor able to check geotags on the photos we have provided to Niantic. Let me once again demonstrate the chronology of events resulting the decision of removal of the concerned portal, providing some extra details.
28 September 2021- the Housing Authority received an email from me as a resident of Kai Yip Estate, requesting a removal of or update to the concerned sign due to improper information within. The tree is apparently not Magnolia (Michelia x alba). The officer of the Authority dialled my phone and said works will be done afterwards in response to my request.
Please see the email below.
Mid-October 2021 - the general works section from the Housing Authority removed the sign completely.
The above image, geotagged at the concerned location dated on 23 October, showing it completely removed without notice of replacement. Notice the round-shaped flower planter to the top-right hand corner, there is no replacement of the sign yet.
Before 31 October 2021 - Ingress Agents within our community team had numerous reports against the portal, by in-app procedures.
3 November 2021 - I submitted the removal request via Wayfarer Community Forum as an appeal.
*in between this period, the sign was replaced into the new object, with rain water marks gone and words rewritten. The new sign was erected to the top-right hand corner of the picture, measuring 7.15 meters to the original location.*
4 November 2021 approx. 1000 Hong Kong time - the portal is removed by Niantic. One of our Ingress Agents team member reported to us that his report attempt went successful.
5 November 2021 - @NianticGiffard replied to the previous thread that the portal in question was removed already.
Afterwards the dispute arouse and comes to the point right now as a hostile conversation between players.
Yet, as apparent as ever, we have solid photo evidence of the sign being removed without replacement on the exact time of 23 October nighttime. How about you? Can you handover evidence to support your claim that the sign was never disappeared, making judgement from Niantic to approve removal request of the portal submitted from the time 23 October to 3 November, as faulty? So far your speech is weak without concrete support, but we do have evidence.
Accusation 3:
You promoted “best practices” within Wayfarer Community as submitting new photos or doing portal scanning.
Apart from the fact that these “best practices” are self-proclaimed and not noted from Niantic Official statements, I wonder how should players predict the future between 23 October to 3 November that the sign would be re-established?
For our teammates’ witnesses, what we saw between the aforementioned period, was the disappearance of the sign. The basic and natural respond to this event, is to report it to Niantic as an invalid portal due to the fact that it was no longer existing. We never knew and Niantic never knew that the sign would reappear suddenly. Moreover, the sign is vastly relocated for more than 7 meters. A distance that differs on satellite images, and differs on the intel map or PoGo OSM base layer for Niantic Games players to whether they can interact with the POI or not. Simply speaking, it affects whether one could enjoy a couch portal or Pokestop, which undoubtedly affects cross-faction gaming strategy in Ingress and resource abundance in PoGo.
@NianticGiffard please note that restoring the portal in its very original location would be extremely inaccurate for the reflection of reality comparing to POIs, thus unfair to the Niantic Games community; authority to judgement for Niantic will grow instabilities with such case studies. As I suggested in the previous thread, I strongly advise players who wish to restore the portal, to nominate a new portal in Wayfarer for the new object regarding the sign, which will be fair for everyone.
Agreeing on what @killbilljoe-ING has said at the end, making evidences precise and concise is important in both such decision-making processes and the whole Niantic Community. I hope you can act instead of saying it out. Actions matter.
Hello there. I am the author of the previous thread aforementioned here, in defending our advocacy and the decision of Niantic in removing the portal in question.
Before my reasoning, I hereby express my gratitude to you that you are able to use properly language and context in expressing yourselves in English, whilst using the correct method in appealing through Wayfarer Community.
In the below passages, I will respond to all of your 3 accusations against Niantic's decision in removing the portal, together with other allegation against my actions.
Accusation 1: "Mere removal with rusts stains remain"
You have expressed doubt of the identity of the sign, stating that it is the same piece of sign with rust stains on the surface. From my knowledge of chemistry, iron rusts are not recoverable, say like window frames can be repaired with paint or shredding off oxidised layers, but rusted metal can hardly revert back to its original forms. In theory, oxidising iron is easy thorough the chemical equilibrium by rain water weathering, yet enormous energy and heat from the Earth core magma is required to reduce or split metal oxides back to metallic compounds. The claim by Killbilljoe is invalid as we can see the new sign at the new location being brand new, having its metallic surface smooth and squeaky clean for both the sign and the supporting base, with the words on the sign refurbished with black ink. We can tell that it was different from the original metal piece.
"Mere removal" is also an inaccurate claim, as 7.15 meters of relocation is measured (see previous thread and image attached). Such distance is visible enough on the satellite images, thus decisive enough for the accuracy of Intel Maps/the POI network. Such difference is also decisive in whether one player could interact with the POI or not, as a couch portal or Pokestop.
Accusation 2: Contradictory claims of "removal / relocation"
As quoted from the previous thread, my claims were accused of being contradictory by terminology. Explained over and over again, some people here may have missed out the chronology of events supporting Niantic's decision in Removing the portal in question.
Let us take into a deeper look in the chronology of events, disclosing more information for transparency. Photos or screenshots are attached as references, please check relevant geotags and timestamps.
28 September 2021 - I dispatched an email to the Housing Authority (the owner of Kai Yip Estate), in the name of resident of Kai Yip Estate, requesting removal or update of neighbourhood facility, including the sign of Magnolia (Michelia x alba) of the problematic portal. The sign was in bad conditions where words faded off and were unreadable; and the sign itself does not reflect the reality as there is no Magnolia tree nearby. I provided my contact for further communications.
30 September 2021 - I received a call from the Housing Authority that they acknowledged my request. The general works section of Kai Yip Estate would investigate the issue.
** the sign should be removed between this period, without replacement found**
23 October 2021 - Local Ingress agent reported the disappearance of the sign at nighttime; as shown in the below photo taken by the Agent, the sign is completely gone without replacement, even on the top-right hand corner where ultimately the new sign is relocated.
On and before 31 October 2021 - Local Agent teammates submitted in-app Invalid Portal Reports to Niantic.
3 November 2021 - I submitted the appeal at the previous thread.
** The new sign may have been reestablished at this timing, as a brand new object distancing 7.15 meters from the original location **
4 November 2021, near morning 10:00 (GMT+8) - Portal removed. One of our Agent teammates reported that his in-app removal attempt went successful; others failed previously.
5 November 2021 - @NianticGiffard replied to my appeal (previous thread) that the portal has been removed already.
Afterwards disputes arouse from the previous appeal thread and developed until right now and right here.
Accusation 3: "Best Practices", Removal Criteria and the Stability of Wayfarer Ecosystem
"Best Practices" of submitting new portal photos and portal scanning were promoted by Killbilljoe as the means to reflect this matter. Apart from the fact that the so-called "best practices" are self-proclaimed without official recognition, another crucial fact to be emphasised is that from 23 October 2021 to 3 November 2021, Agents were not supposed to be able to know that the new sign will be erected elsewhere. Within this brief time and lacking the ability to predict the future, our Agent teammates reported the object being invalid is totally reasonable; thus the decision from Niantic to retire the portal within the timeframe is 100% justifiable.
In response to the self-proclaimed "best practices", as a Wayfinder with certain experience of 20000+ Wayfarer Agreements, given with the fact of a justifiable portal removal, the disappearance of the object in a whole week at least in time and space plus a distant relocation of 7.15 meters possibly affecting Niantic Games player strategy (Interactions with POIs relate to resource gathering in all Niantic Games), I suggest people who are concerned and believes such new object on the new location is eligible as a Wayspot to nominate the object again from the Niantic Wayfarer as an appropriate gesture.
To wrap up, I do not object the portal to go live again as a new portal on an accurate location. I oppose restoration directly by appeal as it is unfair to Niantic player community and inaccurate in reflecting the reality in the POI Network, as the location and materials of the object has been totally different. The old sign weathered by rainwater is no longer here. Procedures and code of conduct in respect of the Wayfarer Guidelines and the Wayfarer Community are set by Niantic to be followed and respected, thus the stability of the Wayfarer Ecosystem can be maintained by Niantic's authority.
In fact, it is just relocation and be proofed by @LucieXXa-ING . Please restore it @NianticGiffard, thank you.
It is not relocation, it is a process of demolishment, disappearance and renovation.
To make things simpler, let’s take into account the example of Nagoya Castle in Japan.
The original historical castle of Nagoya was built in 1620, made out of wood and lime. It was burnt into ash by WW2 bombardment in 1945. The Nagoya Castle we see today is built with concrete and rebar on top of the old debris in 1959.
Within the period of 1945 and 1959, the site of Nagoya Castle is sole debris, it had not been existing before 1959. The castle we see nowadays are much different in terms of structure and materials, which makes it not a relic physically. Slight restructuring during reconstruction made Nagoya Castle shifted in its use of space as well.
The same reasoning applies to the case we are looking into. The object is different in terms of time and space.
We can discuss one more example, much closer to Hong Kong and relevant to Ingress - the Hong Kong Museum of Arts.
The Hong Kong Museum of Arts was founded in 1962, situated in Tsim Sha Tsui Promenade since 1991. It has been a popular cultural hub for modern artist and citizens as a place to admire masterpieces from each period in history. It had been an active portal for the Museum in Ingress since the very early days in Ingress.
The Museum has its renovation works since 3 August 2015, and closed for 4 years. The Museum reopened on 30 November 2019, renaming as HKMOA as its modern version.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Museum_of_Art
The portal in Ingress for the museum, was reported for removal in September 2019. After the reopening of HKMOA, a new portal was nominated and recognised acceptable by Wayfinders in Hong Kong in December 2019.
The Museum never officially died out, but closed for more than 4 years. The portal of the old museum was replaced by the new portal for HKMOA, whilst the museum is "different" in terms of context, time and space.
This example clearly demonstrates what it means to be a “best practice”, and applies to the case in question.
Per all the photos provided by @LucieXXa-ING , there is only enough evidence to prove that the sign may be relocated, and not removed from 28th Oct to 3th Nov.
As an outsider, it seems clear that thanks to the photos provided by @LucieXXa-ING that the wayspot shouldn't have been removed and instead just adjusted to the new location, 7.1 meters away from the original point.
I personally do not know how Niantic will treat this case. The discussions on chronology and distance measurements are just me trying to be fair. But apparently this particular portal is @killbilljoe-ING ‘s couch portal, and a 7-meter difference is enough to make the portal out of his reach.
We have provided photo evidence that as of 23 October to 3 November, the object was gone and Niantic’s decision to retire the portal was correct. My emphasis is not to restore the portal at the very same location. A simple restoration may bot be able to simultaneously move the portal to its accurate location to whatever bearings. A new nomination maybe more efficient in reflecting the new location.
this is similar to
we can compare with the cover photo of the portal (before be removed) and the sign with new location:
it is clear show that they are the same one.
And if we zoom in the photo of the second point, we will find that the sign clear exist.
Base on the fact, we just have a conclusion that the sign only be relocated with a short distance.
@NianticGiffard please restore the portal as soon as possible, thank you.
Appeal Accepted - Thanks for the appeal, Agent. After reviewing the additional evidence provided, we’ve decided to restore the Portal in question.