Inclusion Rule Bug

Any updates? Have they fixed it or not?

24 hours later and all the new pokestops and gyms that appeared near me when the bug occurred are still present. Is this intentional?



  • Kawhinot-INGKawhinot-ING Posts: 115 ✭✭✭

    Some of them have vanished in my area during the last couple of hours. It sucks for Niantic to leave them in the game for nearly two weeks, then remove them. Feel bad for some of the people in more remote areas who all of a sudden had a nearby gym, and now it's gone. Think that this is a bad call by Niantic.

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They dealt with it faster than they have dealt with clearly cheated in Pokestop clusters and gyms. I guess that since it was a mistake caused on their end, they got flake from TPC and had to fix it.

  • Kawhinot-INGKawhinot-ING Posts: 115 ✭✭✭

    I wouldn't think The Pokemon Company has any say over gym numbers/placement by geography.

    Yes, it was an apparent mistake. But once in the game, it doesn't harm anything or anyone by leaving them there. When there are so many other things to truly "fix", it seems like the wrong thing to focus resources on.

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a licensed product. I am very much sure that The Pokemon Company has oversight over the development of Pokemon GO. TPC wouldn't let Niantic do anything they want with TPC's signature IP.

  • Kawhinot-INGKawhinot-ING Posts: 115 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    It's all speculation who exactly made the call to remove them -- so you are entitled to your opinion. But there is no hard evidence to support this, licensing arrangement or not.

  • Had two stops and two gyms added. They are now all gone. A neighboring community, though, got screwed big time. If they haven't lost them all by now, they had five gyms from this bug...

  • RatataFan045-PGORatataFan045-PGO Posts: 32 ✭✭

    Thanks for screwing us Niantic, our gyms stats are ruined now, and the fix also included non “inclusion bugged” stops to be removed as well. I’m never gonna review or nominate again, and I have hundreds of stops accepted and tens of thousands of reviews done.

  • Kawhinot-INGKawhinot-ING Posts: 115 ✭✭✭

    I thought only some of the new gyms had removed, but it looks like actually all of them were removed in our pogo community. I had mons in 4 of the new gyms and they were all returned to me. And at a couple of them today, I chose to raid for a mon that I wouldn't have probably normally raided for because they should have helped me to get for gold. Now I feel I wasted those passes.

    By not coming out and saying at the start that the gyms were a mistake, Niantic waited for nearly two weeks, and then made their announcement with basically only one day notice. Meanwhile, people were interacting with them on the understanding they would be permanent. And in some instances, spending extra money. Not to mention extra time and effort to visit these new gyms.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Entitlement is a strong word. Yes it was a mistake, bit it was a mistake that was, for the vast majority, a good thing that people wanted kept. Given that niantic still haven't fixed several negative bugs, it makes people feel like **** when a positive bug happens and gets patched and reversed faster than any of the other game breaking/freezing bugs that never get patched.

    Also, I bet if this had been an ingress thing and loads of valid portals that weren't in game because of the 20m rule popped up, they would be annoyed if niantic went and removed them all again

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 903 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Entitlement is exactly the right word.

    People were given something they weren't meant to have and they are now complaining that they arent allowed to keep it.

    And if it happened and was reversed in Ingress, I still wouldn't change my opinion and my point of view would still be the same.

    People crying and moaning that they want something back that they should never have been given in the first place is a petulant act of entitlement

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    Also we have now been hearing reports of the wrong gym(s) being removed, and people not receiving their pokemon back. This has happened before too with deleted gyms so I'm not exactly surprised. Reports tell me some of these lost pokemon simply never returned before so it's not necessarily likely they will now either.

  • Zexpe-PGOZexpe-PGO Posts: 17 ✭✭

    The three new gyms visible from my home have now all been demoted back to pokestops. It's so sad seeing what could have been. There were all gyms in areas that had no nearby gyms and on good walking routes where they would have received a lot of activity. Such a shame.

    Oddly, all the pokestops that appeared at the same time have remained. They were old Ingress portals that were in the same L17 cell as another portal that was already a pokestop. Interestingly though they all seem to be now sharing that L17 cell with an old gym rather than a pokestop... maybe there's a new rule that says it's now only one pokestop per L17 cell and not one wayspot per L17 cell in the game?

    Perhaps they were implementing that rule and then accidentally triggered the new gyms? Makes me even more annoyed that (a) they aren't telling us what the inclusion rules are, only that the new gyms were a bug and (b) why they didn't just keep the gyms: a wasted opportunity for helpful change, whilst as others point out they have done nothing to revert the blatant cheating in the "integrity" of the gameboard.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    Do you play PGO?

    There is a big difference, when a gym vanishes: you still have the badge in your profile. Further some people lost their Pokemon, that sat into that gym. A friend of mine lost a shiny Lvl 1 Gyarados for example.

    To find a comparison for ING-only-players: It's like, if Nia would places a random mission picture in the middle of your favorite mosaic ....

    Further: Niantic seems to use strange double measures. On the one side they remove a few additional spots, that were placed by their own fault. The few additional stops or gyms didn't hurt anyone and didnd hurt the balancing harshly.

    On the other side there are lots of reports for the well known highly abused clusters, that are the places loved by spoofers. For example the famous soccer yard at Zaragoza. It needed roughly dozens of mentions and staff taggs, so that Nia did something. Here is the thread, where they took action:

    Niantic removed half of the cheated stops. but there are still way more left than the "inclusion rules" would allow. And obviosuly they did work there manually. Look at this nice and clean arrangement there .....

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    Looking at some of these entitled comments, you don't have to go far to understand why Niantic doesn't have an official PoGo forum.

    My couch portal / Gym turned back into a stop. I've still got a stop, so not a problem.

  • Xmacke7x-INGXmacke7x-ING Posts: 206 ✭✭✭✭

    I can unterstand those who are frustrated by the removal of those Pokestops and gyms.

    More gyms and pokestops mean that there are more things to interact with. There are more things to so which make fun.

    People where happy about those new things. And now they get removed. The general Pokemon go player does not know anything about inclusion rules of wayspots. So they will not understand why they lost their new stops.

    On the other hand there are more important things Niantic should focus on. There are some bugs which are still there since day 1. But nie they change something which people where happy about.

    Lastly this inclusion Bug shows that there ist no technical reason why there should not be 2 or more stops in S2 Level 17 cell or why there cannot bei more gyms. Hopefully there is a huge backlash for Niantic about this problem

  • Kawhinot-INGKawhinot-ING Posts: 115 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    Entitlement? LOL.

    Many people spent time, money and dollars in investing towards reaching gold status at those gyms. Even if it was a mistake, if Niantic had made a statement immediately that they were going to remove the gyms, then I think most people would have been fine with that. But by not making any announcement until about 2 weeks later after they appeared, with minimal notice, and then they are gone, it's not surprising that people are frustrated. Especially since Niantic has a history of "fixing" bugs that benefit players right away while other issues that work against them languish around, combined with a lack of quality control in introducing new features/functionality.

    I'm guessing that it would take anywhere from 10 to 40 visits to a gym (longer if they are very active) to reach gold. Not to mention raid passes used there and berries used on the gym. So let's say you got partially there to gold status with 5-10 visits. And you lived in the suburbs and had to drive there. And were making visits to multiple new gyms. With no indication that they weren't going to be permanent. And now to hear that you are "entitled" to negatively react to those gym removals.

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    Exactly. Justifiable frustration is not entitlement. It's quite toxic to think that way.

    Niantic should have announced upfront that the new gyms and stops were a mistake and would be removed. I wasn't personally touched by the loss of these gyms and stops, but I'm very empathetic towards those who were. There were multiple other higher priority issues in the games that should have warranted a quicker fix.

    There is an undeniable shortage of communication coming from Niantic's end about a lot of issues. This was apparent already before these new gyms and stops even appeared. They should invest in hiring more hands into their communications team and make the transferring of information from point A to point B more efficient. What they're currently doing is insufficient to say the least.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's not entitlement, being given something good and then having it taken away from you and being annoyed about it is how 99.9999999999999999999% of humans act, if you wouldn't act that way, then congrats, you're part of the 0.0000000000000000001%. But to me, people have every right to be annoyed, especially when the vast majority of the player base will have no idea why the stops appeared, were happy for it, were then told they were being taken away because of some arbitrary unknown rule being broken by a bug. And again, niantic let's the vast majority of negative bugs still stay or take months to remove, but when it's a positive bug, they act fast, people have every right to be annoyed, frustrated, whatever, eith noantic and I think very few people will agree with your viewpoint

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The bug was placed on the known issues bug tracker soon after it was reported, so the likelihood that the gyms would be removed was very high. Players took a gamble on whether those gyms would remain and are now complaining that they lost. So yeah, that sounds pretty entitled to me.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The people shouting entitled are entitled .... to their own opinion, but then, no matter what they claim, if it was an ingress thing and it worked in their favor, they would be complaining like everyone else

    And again, it is not entitled to be given something good with no negative repercussions, to then have it taken away, while the negative bugs that can break gameplay stay for months on end

  • KwyjiboHan-PGOKwyjiboHan-PGO Posts: 111 ✭✭✭

    When you say, "no matter what they claim...", you tell others that irrespective of their own words and experiences, that they are liars.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I fully agree with your main point, but your judgement about ingress is wrong…

    Ingress-Purebloods reactions wouldnt be so simple. In general ING cant be played without portals of course, but players can better adapt their playstyle to the local portal density because of items, that reduce the cooldown times for interaction and so on.

    So it might have an impact on how to play, but not as much as losing gyms in PGO. ING doesnt have the PGO-rule „the more stops the better the gameplay“….

    So resentful persons like Theisman can say that easily from one‘s high horse ….

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    And how many players know about this forum?

    0.x% of PGO players …..

    how many people check the PGO twitter and/or blog, or at least secondary sources like news channels, that refer to this?

    More than 50% I guess, but there was no message about anything.

    Post edited by Raachermannl-ING on
  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And I want to add: even as an active user of this forum ..... the bug section is by far not the section, that I check daily. The bug section is for coordinated reports to Nia, for my understanding it's no platform for communication to players. So saying, that it was listed somewhere as a bug, is only pretense ....

    People check the bug section, when they expierience bugs. But a bug like this one, that is not obviously a bug for 99.x% of the players, is something, that needs to be communicated asap through official channels. So Niantics solution is simply stupid. Reverting it without noteworthy communication causes, that players don't understand the situation and are upset.

    The only valid argument, that might be out there, is, that they could have contracts with their licensors (Pokemon Company, Nintendo, whoever). But if that's the case .... why don't they act that way at the famous Spoofer spots like Zaragoza, Sevilla (Plaza de Espana aka Naboo), Las Palmas (Gran Canaria), and so on .....

    Further I heard never an official statement, that such contracts about the inclusion rules for games exist. So noone can know for sure, whether its a Nia decision, of forced by contract. This theory is only used as an speculative argument of forum users, afaik. Proof me wrong.

  • Theisman-INGTheisman-ING Posts: 903 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Resentful lol, im not resentful in the slightest.

    If the error had occured in Ingress with lots of POI's added and then removed, and people were going waaa I want my portal back, my response would be exactly the same.

    To me it makes absolutely no difference on the game, if something was added in error, then it deserves to be taken away, no one is entitled to profit from a bug.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    But then they should produce the state from before. In ING that's easy. Portal vanishes, keys vanish, mission spot vanishes (but mission stays).

    In PGO not. The badge stays in the profile and cant made gold, and some people lost their Pokemon, that sat into the gyms (neither alive nor dead in their box). In other places Niantic downgraded the wrong gyms. That's far away from state before.

  • It is good to see that there are both ing and pgo players that are on both sides of this issue, if it was just -ing players that were calling pgo players entitled, it would show a huge disconnect between ing and pgo players. I just hope that if and when ing goes the way of hpwu, that there isnt a huge backlash from -ing players that want to mess the playing field for -pgo players. I just really wish there was a mutual feeling of respect for the overall POI placement and that the idea of, "how can this be mutually beneficial to all players" instead of the unspoken challenge to see how the players of either game will try and discourage, affect or disfranchise the other. I was not affected by the inclusion bug, but I do feel bad for people who were super excited to get new POIs in -PGO, I am sure the feeling of them being taken away is much like when a good nomination is rejected for blatantly selfish reasons.

    for games that are suppose to help bring people together, there is a lot of anger and name calling, Its is a game, play, have fun, be sociable and be kind.

  • Ochemist-INGOchemist-ING Posts: 228 ✭✭✭✭

    Ingress-Purebloods reactions wouldnt be so simple. In general ING cant be played without portals of course, but players can better adapt their playstyle to the local portal density because of items, that reduce the cooldown times for interaction and so on.

    So it might have an impact on how to play, but not as much as losing gyms in PGO. ING doesnt have the PGO-rule „the more stops the better the gameplay“….

    While I fully agree that the density rules for PoGo should be relaxed, I strongly disagree with your assertion that portal density is somehow less important in Ingress than stop/gym density is in PoGo. For example:

    • The cooldown difference is huge. While it is true that mods exist that can increase the number of hack available in a four hour window, they are a limited resource and using them also prevents one from, for example, fully shielding a portal.
    • As has been said many, many times, and as you acknowledge, there isn't much to do in Ingress without portals. I find it much easier to adapt my PoGo play style when I'm in areas with limited stops/gyms than my Ingress play style in areas with limited portals. There is typically still lots to do in the former case and little to do in the latter.
    • Most of the Ingress players I know want more portals. And I can absolutely, unequivocally state that more portal density gives me a much better playing experience. I enjoy walking around microfielding and maxfielding and more portals means more fields and denser multilayered fields. I have a multilayered field I enjoy making in a very dense area that has really benefited from four or five portals I squeezed into it. In the areas where I commonly do this sort of playing, I'd love to see more portals (being quite greedy here, of course!), but I think the number of stops and gyms is fine, because there are also plenty of spawns to catch.
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