Morality Question of Location Edits because of Cell Rules



  • AgentX1976-INGAgentX1976-ING Posts: 557 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can see both sides, I have made edits that make more PoI appear in more games. Many times it truley is to make the PoI in a more accurate location. I dont try and influence reviewers in the location move and many are a more logical location.

    As long as it's not a wrong location nudging a PoI a few feet isn't going to hurt anyone.

    A lot of times poi was placed on new items when satellite may not be the most accurate and then when that satellite photo is updated you notice that it's off a few feet. Updating that for accuracy is perfectly fine.

    All in all I think there is a not less malicious intent in edits unless it's completely obvious. Be positive about people. The majority of people are just trying to make all game boards better. When you start thinking the worst about people you can't see the good.

    Plus Niantic does not show us the cell lines and does not even acknowledge the existence. So if you are reviewing with something like wayfarer + or iitc to check those things you are also in violation of the rules.

    Basically just pick the best location and leave it at that.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 3,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cowyn2016-PGO said, "Move a spot to be equally accurate: Borderline Debatable." I think that would be true except that Niantic has said not to do it. I think that should close the debate.

  • ZeroZeroZiete-INGZeroZeroZiete-ING Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    imagine all the problems niantic wouldve saved if all the wayspots would appear in the the end 99.999999% of the current database is thanks to pogo...just imagine...

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 97 ✭✭✭

    Niantic can and should adjust their takes based on community feedback. Things like this don't exactly have basis to be this black and white. Would surely be different if this wasn't the case, but this is simply way too black and white interpretation and I feel Niantic would do well to make a slight adjustment here.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 548 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Borderline debatable doesn't mean something isn't bad/wrong... It just doesn't mean it isnt very wrong...

    For a real world analogy: If the speed limit says 65 MPH, you clearly shouldn't do 70. But you will find a lot of people thinking going 70 is okay.... and you won't see a lot of crackdown by police at 70. Meanwhile do 90... and see the abuse sirens a flashing.

    Maybe a different phrase like "Technically wrong by rules, but many in community think it shouldn't be against the rules" would be a more apt phrase

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 4,976 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People who speed aren't going around claiming that they are "morally right" for speed and those who drive at or below the speed limit are "morally wrong".

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm a little disappointed that Harry Potter Wizards Unite, and Catan, didn't make it long enough to have location edit wars with PokemonGo Trainers. Maybe Pikmin, or Transformers, or whatever other game, will someday be able to nominate and edit...

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 4,805 Ambassador

    There are 2 sides to this - and it is nothing to do with a game 😎

    There is the submitter view and the reviewer view.

    Only the submitter knows if what they are proposing is something that….

    fits the guidelines - is righting a wrong

    is a somewhere in the middle - looked and guidelines and in they can justify the proposal but know it’s not clear cut

    doesn’t fit guidelines - the reasons might be well meaning (often a one off) or totally manipulative as part of wider gross and repeated patterns.

    The first 2 are down to interpretation and are judgement calls and there is no mal intent. Even the first one can be subjective as we so many times see discussion on precise interpretation.

    The last category I’ve split in 2 as I do think there is a difference in motivation for doing the edit.

    The reviewer knows none of this.

    As a reviewer you shouldn’t be trying to judge the reasons, you should look at each review afresh and see if you have enough information to decide on which location fits the guidelines the best. There should be no consideration of which is there now, or cells.

    There are too many instances (not just in this thread) of reviewers assuming the worst.

    I do think that there needs to swifter review by Niantic of those that do appear to deliberate and malicious. My preference would be a button marked Niantic review - so it was clear that you are asking Niantic to look at this edit and a comment field as to why.

    I do like @Raachermannl-ING ideas of a commentary field and a context photo as part of the edit submission

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    I seem to remember when Niantic appeared to suggest dog poop stations or the local Starbucks were possibly eligible as Wayspots, there were no people claiming "Niantic has spoken, the debate should be closed", because obviously having such places as Wayspots is ridiculous. Taking Niantic literally every time might not be the best idea. Remember, this is the same Niantic that could not make up its mind as to whether dog poop stations or the local Starbucks were eligible.

  • Yup. Taking Niantic's words as end all be all has backfired more than once. What Niantic does is ADVISE, not ORDER. Its a suggestion, not law.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    That's not really what I said but sure, it has been stressed many times on this forum, especially since the "criteria refresh" that we should not be dealing in absolutes that we should always use our best judgement. What I am saying is that if we shut down other debates prematurely, then people's review piles would be full of poop anyway. I believe it is hypocritical to call for the shutting down of some debates and not others.

    Healthly discussions such as the one we appear to be having here should be encouraged. It's unfortunate that some would want certain topics to be "off the table", as it were, because it makes them feel uneasy. Dialogue is an important part of a healthy society.

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 97 ✭✭✭

    Most people who benefit from the status quo are ingress players so I don't think they have any room to judge here.

  • Not saying it's Hosette's case, but this is also very true. It just shows the double standards of the toxic community Niantic has enforced.

  • Yes, we are on the same side. I honestly feel that they (Niantic) are the ones that perpetuate these kind of situations.

    Hell, i got a couple of warnings on the weekend yet REAL IMPORTANT ISSUES reported during the weekend have to wait till monday for a reply. Wrong priorities to the extreme.

    The worst part is that they paint themselves as a "poor small indie company" that's "very open to feedback" but when feedback is given, they simply ignore it. That's why no one should have sympathy for them: They are the cause of the problem, the biggest offenders, and the biggest hypocrites.

  • Belahzur-INGBelahzur-ING Posts: 626 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Couldn't of said it better myself, as an Ingress/pogo/pikmin player myself (never really got into it wizards), POI placement and/or status qou doesn't matter to me, don't care which game a POI is in (or not in)

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 3,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    @feliscybernicus-PGO No, I'm not playing dumb. Moving wayspots causes links and fields to drop in Ingress but for urban/suburban areas that's mostly an annoyance since they're easy enough to rethrow... remote areas are different but it seems unlikely that PoGo players are going to start tweaking a lot of mountaintop wayspots because of cell boundaries. Ingress portals are all the same so there's no gym/fortress/flower distinction to worry about. (Apparently small moves could really **** up HPWU.) Sometimes you'll **** up someone's fielding spine, certainly, but losing one layer isn't earth-shattering. Ingress has the most liberal density rules of any of the games. You could be taking away someone's couch or desk portal, but you could just as easily be taking away someone's couch or desk stop/flower/fortress in another game with your move.

    So, what's your point?

    Editing to add: The one thing you could **** up pretty badly is a frack cluster. That one could be quite frustrating.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 548 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Personally I don't think the rancor between PMG and Ingress players is good but it is human nature because the cell rules only apply to PMG.

    This means Ingress players often go by "Letter of Law" and "Reference Wayfarer Rule Technicalicaties" but since the cell rules don't hurt them they have no skin in the game. In another words, defending the wayfarer rules is easy for Ingress players because Ingress players never suffer by them.

    Meanwhile, PMG players have skin in the game, so often want rules adjusted or bent in thier favor. Especially if the blanket rule isn't a big deal or doesn't make sense.

    Ingress Player POV of POG: Rule Benders

    POG POV of Ingress Player: Holier than Thou or Wayfarer **** ups.

    Want a Real World Analogy?

    50$ year tax. No big deal to the millionaire (Ingress Player) who might defend its need. Big deal to the poor (PMG player) who the $50 is a hardship

  • kaireky001-PGOkaireky001-PGO Posts: 54 ✭✭✭

    This is the wrong way to analogize this. Something can be morally acceptable without making an alternative morally wrong. With speed limits, most people find going +5 over the speed limit to be acceptable but do not in turn argue that going the speed limit is wrong. They might think you’re weird but they’re not going to see you as being in the wrong. At the same time, most people agree that going +20 over the speed limit is not acceptable. (I’m generalizing here, since urban interstates are 55 mph and 75 is not an uncommon speed. This isn’t black and white and context matters.)

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 754 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Given ambulance wait times where I live, if a family member had a stroke - a situation where every second count - speeding could be the difference between saving a life and somebody not being saved. Attempting to save a life is the morally correct thing to do, I hope we can all agree?

  • ZeroZeroZiete-INGZeroZeroZiete-ING Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    you are right, and all the ING will spam disagree in your comment because they know its true, besides currently the database map is 99.99% info thanks to pogo but some people still delusional

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 548 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Theres no way with the years head start ingress had before PMG could even submit for him to be correct.

    But what do you think percentage breakdown in say last year of accepted POIs are?

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 548 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I did get 5 disagrees and counting. Though not a single reply on why I was wrong.

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I make a crazy amount of location edits once they're made available to me. Mainly because the game map is pretty inaccurate, and it is not offset. Consider this example: Museum Station. The precise location of it is literally on the corner of a turning bus on the road, so if you'd like to ultra strike this portal (an Ingress mechanic), be prepared to be under a bus.

    Oddly enough, the building the portal represents happens to be over a cell line. Regardless of being occupied or not, this location edit is favourable because it better represents the location of the wayspot, much more safer, and it so happens to also benefit Pogo players because it moves across cells (assuming that the top cell is either empty, or given the current bug, the cell moves over anyway and something new in the old cell turns into a Pokestop.

    If a wayspot was ultra accurate in the first place, then there would be no reason for it to be moving around, would it not? The only instances you would have to deal with is the split between whether a wayspot pin should be in the middle of a playground or just to the side, whether a pin on a building or a couple of metres to the left/right/up/down to move it over a cell.

    There was a post earlier this year about some extremely strategic portal used for links about this very exact thing. A perfect location example where Wayfinders will obviously select the pin on the lighthouse as the most accurate, but it happened in an actually different way that it had a wild impact on Ingress because it got neutralised. And it caused outrage.

    Location edits are fair game. Unless they make the wayspot more inaccurate, then treat them on a case by case basis.

This discussion has been closed.