Excited about being able to appeal rejections! Any info you can share on how this will work yet, or will we have to wait for the "Details to come later this week."?
Why add something thats going to extend the backlog when the 2-3 year backlog in many areas hasnt been addressed yet? And with no rewards or agreements?!!!
I expect that appeals will be handled by Niantic, so if they approve things that the community has rejected it avoids a new nomination for the same item and that's one item that isn't added back to the queue.
And if the people see that the system works, they might return back if they felt that it was broken and haven't been reviewing due to that.
Fair counterpoint. But I feel, if Appeals need to be earned by reviewing, then that would get more people doing so.
Then again, lots of people said about how dumb the 15 minute cool-down, repeatable tests to review/submit (with no consequences for getting it wrong) was to Niantic and they still forged ahead.
I had assumed the poster was referring to this unfortunate addition to our lives. I'm pretty displeased about it, myself:
"Categories tagged on live Wayspots as edits will be funneled through Wayfarer for others to validate, but will not contribute to your Agreements for now, since there's technically no collective agreement to be made on these (yes I am thinking of better rewarding mechanisms for this type of validation question!)."
"Categories tagged on live Wayspots as edits will be funneled through Wayfarer for others to validate, but will not contribute to your Agreements for now, since there's technically no collective agreement to be made on these (yes I am thinking of better rewarding mechanisms for this type of validation question!)."
@Danbocat-PGO, If you are going to require us to review categories that users will be able to propose via live wayspots, can you please, please, please rework the cooldown algorithm so that we are not required to spend a full 20-30 seconds on each of these? That's really going to turn off reviewers and I'm already dreading it.
Every time I see Tobias, I am reminded of Divergent. Why have a -PGO or an -ING tag when you could be a Divergent instead, and have none? The labels are a source of discord sometimes, so I'd propose we opt out of displaying them in our settings if that could be possible.
Anywho, onwards to the discussion, I am keen to hear how appeals will be implemented. Would everyone be able to do appeals? Will someone be given a credit instead to either choose between an upgrade or an appeal? How would you react if someone appealed their bed, tree or a school (i.e. pure coal)? Appeals (just like nominating without a submitter test) should not be made available to every man's dog and second child, it is a real privilege that should be earned first imo.
However, given your perceived overencumberance on forum moderation, it just feels like you're adding even more work for yourself with anonymous and private reporting. I'm sure you understand that a lot of people do want some sort of immediate response to confirm that their concerns are being met, and that you provide updates based on what is reported. But that's the reason why public abuse reports (i.e. posts here) feel they work because we are advised that action was taken, and highlights the reason why the abuse reporting form was ineffective because there were never any progress updates. So hopefully when abuse cases are reported privately/anonymously through Wayfarer, it is a two-way dialogue to keep the case open until it is closed.
The fact that the this is considered as the "last release of the year" makes me sad that NianticCasey's promise on the manual application of upgrades that were being worked on is effectively broken and moot; as are other things promised to us but I guess things change.
Here's to hoping rejection appeals are implemented in a good way.
Especially considering how many people in my area have been submitting generic fast food chains and stores lately, I would be annoyed if those clogged the appeal queue cause of the few fast food and generic store stops in my area that convince people it's a good idea.
The part that says we will have to review categories... without earning agreements.
Categories tagged on live Wayspots as edits will be funneled through Wayfarer for others to validate, but will not contribute to your Agreements for now, since there's technically no collective agreement to be made on these (yes I am thinking of better rewarding mechanisms for this type of validation question!). Ultimately the categories will be used by all Niantic games for new, more context specific, game mechanics and more!
appeals should be an upgrade used if not people is just going to appeal and appeal and appeal for the eternity, in this way upgrades are used for another purpose too
i dont understand the part of ''Anonymous and private abuse reporting through Wayfarer'' does it mean there will be a big orange button called ''abuse'' which will be directed to niantic employee which will see it without know who tagged it as ''abuse''?
To my knowledge, Ingressors still don't get badge credit for edit or photo agreement. I know they didn't for years. Why not add categories to the list, I guess.
Rejection appeal allotments should depend on number of nominations that have been accepted.
If rejection appeal allotments depend on Waypoint agreements - that would be triple-penalizing people who happen to live in places with slow turnaround. Say you have one year wait-time for upgraded nominations, then it's rejected, so you have to earn another upgrade, then another year for the appeal to process. Meanwhile a new nomination wasn't upgraded, because you had to use it on the appeal, so the new one takes two years. (Even if it's 3 months instead of a year, same logic.)
It's just cruel to say people should have to use upgrades on appeals. I guess it evolves into politics: Do you believe people born in areas of luxury should get more and more benefits, while people born into poverty should be dug deeper and deeper into that poverty?
OTOH Niantic could just prevent nominations in the areas they don't want new wayspots, instead of slow-tracking them. Or change their code to treat all nominations the same.
@Gendgi-PGO - thanks for signal boosting that post! Many of those are aligned with our plans, or some version of them. We're still hiring web engineers to help accelerate our feature releases, too.
And generally speaking about a 'backlog', we are planning to look into the cooldowns and the decision speeds as well next quarter, waiting months to years for a decision wasn't the intended design so we need to rework it. That said, note that there will always be a backlog. The real-world is constantly changing, and so too should our map of the world :-)
My only concern is the appeal feature for unsuccessful candidates.
I am concerned that if this is abused and there is a large influx of appeals, the Wayfarer team could become dysfunctional.
Niantic's vetting process, which had a massive backlog until September 2015, was dysfunctional, and it took years for vetting and recommendations to resume.
Since then, Operation_Portal_Recon, which leaves the reviewing to the players, was created, and Niantic_Wayfarer was further developed. Although this is an innovative system, there are concerns that the system will fail if it becomes dysfunctional.
I'm sure sufficient countermeasures are being taken, but as a long-time Niantic user, I'm concerned that something like this could happen again.
If there are any details of countermeasures that can be mentioned at this point, I would be relieved if you could announce them.
I hope you don't submit dog waste stations then. If Niantic decides that garbage cans are perfect spots where dog owners socialize, and reviewers wrongly reject such great nominations - want to punish all those stubborn reviewers who can't event read rules about what is eligible or acceptable or both?
I have never submitted a dog waste station. I said "a little over the top" meaning I don't really want that to happen, but hopefully Niantic realizes after appealing the thousandth [nomination], maybe better guidelines are needed.
And if I did submit a dog waste station, I would be submitting it as a proxy or visual marker for a dog park or pet & owner exercise & social area where lack of better signage exists, and yea I'd be appreciative of stubborn reviewers actually reading the rules and understanding what is eligible or acceptable.
Counter point, you've already reviewed, used the upgrade and then had the upgraded nomination wrongly rejected, why shoukd you then have to review all the way up to that upgrade again (assuming that the thing doesn't auto apply) to then appeal what was wrongly rejected? Don't get me wrong i think the appeal process shouldn't be easy, maybe you get 2 appeals a month, if your appeal gets accepted, you get that appeal allowance back right away, if it fails you don't get it back till the month has passed
Appeals are needed, ive had a good few things rejected for dumb reasons, most shouldn't even be rejected (some I will admit I was taking a punt on as they mught have been borderline). But I don't want to have to review to an upgrade to use that to appeal rather than use the upgrade. If anything, I'd want an appeal allowance, say 2 appeals a month, if your appeal passes, you get that 1 allowance back, but if it fails, you have to wait a month (assuming appeals are quick)
The what is it categories aren't great, half the time I'm just picking what's closest to it (like a cairn, i have to go with historic site which for some is a push) or at times, nothing is even close even though the thing looks acceptable to me, so have to pick something random. Even then, having us select edits when half the time it won't be exact, so we will be clicking hoping other people pick the same, won't be fun. Imo, the what is it shouldn't matter, if we are changing the way we review, remove cultural/historical significance and hange the wording for visually unique
I was joking, but yeah the point was: I don't like the idea of handing extra punishments to reviewers who follow the guide and come to an agreement with other reviewers, but whose decision is overruled through appeal. There is room for interpretation, and if reviewer gives honest answer "no I don't consider dog waste station nice place to socialize", it's not "wrong" or "abusive" answer even if not everyone agrees with that.
Dog garbage bins was only an illustration, could be swings, stairs, "artistic" apartment sign, military base gate, oldest tree in the village, etc.
The backlog is not a necessity. The world changes, and its people adapt and change with it. A backlog is the accumulation over time, just like a bunch of papers on a desk. If there are a large amount of nominations taking longer than a year, then that's the backlog. Some places like Finland and Sydney don't have this issue.
Anyway, I really hope you fix the issues with cooldowns. I received a 24-hour cooldown for rejecting consecutive endless spoofer gunk. It does not take me less than 30 seconds to decide that it should be reported for abuse, it takes two... but no I waited maybe for about 15-20 seconds and there you have it... "anomalous" behaviour and patterns.
Tobias-ING
Posts: 12 ✭✭
Comments
Excited about being able to appeal rejections! Any info you can share on how this will work yet, or will we have to wait for the "Details to come later this week."?
@Tobias - yep later this week in the release notes :)
Why add something thats going to extend the backlog when the 2-3 year backlog in many areas hasnt been addressed yet? And with no rewards or agreements?!!!
Exciting announcement!
Any update on the user experience quality of life updates proposed to reviewing in the thread below, @Danbocat-PGO?
Wishing smooth shipping for the new features! I'm extremely curious to see exactly how they'll be implemented.
I hope there’s more detail on how it works for Appeals.
I want Appeals to be earned, so people aren’t appealing everything.
Make it so you can earn a “Wayfarer credit” or whatever and you can exchange for one Upgrade or one Appeal.
Then if you don’t want Upgrades you can stockpile Appeals instead.
I want Appeals to be earned, so people aren’t appealing everything.
Counterpoint: I want my appeals handed to me and the people who wrongly rejected them punished.
A little over the top, but I think there needs to be a compromise there between making appeals just given away and making it too hard to earn.
What part is gonna increase the backlog?
I expect that appeals will be handled by Niantic, so if they approve things that the community has rejected it avoids a new nomination for the same item and that's one item that isn't added back to the queue.
And if the people see that the system works, they might return back if they felt that it was broken and haven't been reviewing due to that.
a private profile? How?
Fair counterpoint. But I feel, if Appeals need to be earned by reviewing, then that would get more people doing so.
Then again, lots of people said about how dumb the 15 minute cool-down, repeatable tests to review/submit (with no consequences for getting it wrong) was to Niantic and they still forged ahead.
So who knows how they will handle Appeals. 🤷
What part is gonna increase the backlog?
I had assumed the poster was referring to this unfortunate addition to our lives. I'm pretty displeased about it, myself:
"Categories tagged on live Wayspots as edits will be funneled through Wayfarer for others to validate, but will not contribute to your Agreements for now, since there's technically no collective agreement to be made on these (yes I am thinking of better rewarding mechanisms for this type of validation question!)."
"Categories tagged on live Wayspots as edits will be funneled through Wayfarer for others to validate, but will not contribute to your Agreements for now, since there's technically no collective agreement to be made on these (yes I am thinking of better rewarding mechanisms for this type of validation question!)."
@Danbocat-PGO, If you are going to require us to review categories that users will be able to propose via live wayspots, can you please, please, please rework the cooldown algorithm so that we are not required to spend a full 20-30 seconds on each of these? That's really going to turn off reviewers and I'm already dreading it.
Every time I see Tobias, I am reminded of Divergent. Why have a -PGO or an -ING tag when you could be a Divergent instead, and have none? The labels are a source of discord sometimes, so I'd propose we opt out of displaying them in our settings if that could be possible.
Anywho, onwards to the discussion, I am keen to hear how appeals will be implemented. Would everyone be able to do appeals? Will someone be given a credit instead to either choose between an upgrade or an appeal? How would you react if someone appealed their bed, tree or a school (i.e. pure coal)? Appeals (just like nominating without a submitter test) should not be made available to every man's dog and second child, it is a real privilege that should be earned first imo.
However, given your perceived overencumberance on forum moderation, it just feels like you're adding even more work for yourself with anonymous and private reporting. I'm sure you understand that a lot of people do want some sort of immediate response to confirm that their concerns are being met, and that you provide updates based on what is reported. But that's the reason why public abuse reports (i.e. posts here) feel they work because we are advised that action was taken, and highlights the reason why the abuse reporting form was ineffective because there were never any progress updates. So hopefully when abuse cases are reported privately/anonymously through Wayfarer, it is a two-way dialogue to keep the case open until it is closed.
The fact that the this is considered as the "last release of the year" makes me sad that NianticCasey's promise on the manual application of upgrades that were being worked on is effectively broken and moot; as are other things promised to us but I guess things change.
At least we'll get flashy Wayfarer emails and the stupid Ingress rejection emails will stop telling me to improve the photo only.
Here's to hoping rejection appeals are implemented in a good way.
Especially considering how many people in my area have been submitting generic fast food chains and stores lately, I would be annoyed if those clogged the appeal queue cause of the few fast food and generic store stops in my area that convince people it's a good idea.
The part that says we will have to review categories... without earning agreements.
Categories tagged on live Wayspots as edits will be funneled through Wayfarer for others to validate, but will not contribute to your Agreements for now, since there's technically no collective agreement to be made on these (yes I am thinking of better rewarding mechanisms for this type of validation question!). Ultimately the categories will be used by all Niantic games for new, more context specific, game mechanics and more!
appeals should be an upgrade used if not people is just going to appeal and appeal and appeal for the eternity, in this way upgrades are used for another purpose too
i dont understand the part of ''Anonymous and private abuse reporting through Wayfarer'' does it mean there will be a big orange button called ''abuse'' which will be directed to niantic employee which will see it without know who tagged it as ''abuse''?
To my knowledge, Ingressors still don't get badge credit for edit or photo agreement. I know they didn't for years. Why not add categories to the list, I guess.
Rejection appeal allotments should depend on number of nominations that have been accepted.
If rejection appeal allotments depend on Waypoint agreements - that would be triple-penalizing people who happen to live in places with slow turnaround. Say you have one year wait-time for upgraded nominations, then it's rejected, so you have to earn another upgrade, then another year for the appeal to process. Meanwhile a new nomination wasn't upgraded, because you had to use it on the appeal, so the new one takes two years. (Even if it's 3 months instead of a year, same logic.)
It's just cruel to say people should have to use upgrades on appeals. I guess it evolves into politics: Do you believe people born in areas of luxury should get more and more benefits, while people born into poverty should be dug deeper and deeper into that poverty?
OTOH Niantic could just prevent nominations in the areas they don't want new wayspots, instead of slow-tracking them. Or change their code to treat all nominations the same.
@Gendgi-PGO - thanks for signal boosting that post! Many of those are aligned with our plans, or some version of them. We're still hiring web engineers to help accelerate our feature releases, too.
And generally speaking about a 'backlog', we are planning to look into the cooldowns and the decision speeds as well next quarter, waiting months to years for a decision wasn't the intended design so we need to rework it. That said, note that there will always be a backlog. The real-world is constantly changing, and so too should our map of the world :-)
@Danbocat-PGO
Overall, I think it's a good update.
My only concern is the appeal feature for unsuccessful candidates.
I am concerned that if this is abused and there is a large influx of appeals, the Wayfarer team could become dysfunctional.
Niantic's vetting process, which had a massive backlog until September 2015, was dysfunctional, and it took years for vetting and recommendations to resume.
Since then, Operation_Portal_Recon, which leaves the reviewing to the players, was created, and Niantic_Wayfarer was further developed. Although this is an innovative system, there are concerns that the system will fail if it becomes dysfunctional.
I'm sure sufficient countermeasures are being taken, but as a long-time Niantic user, I'm concerned that something like this could happen again.
If there are any details of countermeasures that can be mentioned at this point, I would be relieved if you could announce them.
I hope you don't submit dog waste stations then. If Niantic decides that garbage cans are perfect spots where dog owners socialize, and reviewers wrongly reject such great nominations - want to punish all those stubborn reviewers who can't event read rules about what is eligible or acceptable or both?
Just using the features of the forum to its fullest ;)
How did you manage to set your profile on private? Or are you an undercover Niantic mod testing the feature before its relese? :D
Again, just using the features of the forum everyone can use to its fullest ;) Also I wouldn't be really undercover with such an apparent profile lol
I see. As you replied to a post talking about rejection appeals I was confused and didn't understand your comment.
Now it makes sense 👍
Finally an end fpr the suffering <3
I don't understand the point of your reply.
I have never submitted a dog waste station. I said "a little over the top" meaning I don't really want that to happen, but hopefully Niantic realizes after appealing the thousandth [nomination], maybe better guidelines are needed.
And if I did submit a dog waste station, I would be submitting it as a proxy or visual marker for a dog park or pet & owner exercise & social area where lack of better signage exists, and yea I'd be appreciative of stubborn reviewers actually reading the rules and understanding what is eligible or acceptable.
Counter point, you've already reviewed, used the upgrade and then had the upgraded nomination wrongly rejected, why shoukd you then have to review all the way up to that upgrade again (assuming that the thing doesn't auto apply) to then appeal what was wrongly rejected? Don't get me wrong i think the appeal process shouldn't be easy, maybe you get 2 appeals a month, if your appeal gets accepted, you get that appeal allowance back right away, if it fails you don't get it back till the month has passed
My takeaway from this
Appeals are needed, ive had a good few things rejected for dumb reasons, most shouldn't even be rejected (some I will admit I was taking a punt on as they mught have been borderline). But I don't want to have to review to an upgrade to use that to appeal rather than use the upgrade. If anything, I'd want an appeal allowance, say 2 appeals a month, if your appeal passes, you get that 1 allowance back, but if it fails, you have to wait a month (assuming appeals are quick)
The what is it categories aren't great, half the time I'm just picking what's closest to it (like a cairn, i have to go with historic site which for some is a push) or at times, nothing is even close even though the thing looks acceptable to me, so have to pick something random. Even then, having us select edits when half the time it won't be exact, so we will be clicking hoping other people pick the same, won't be fun. Imo, the what is it shouldn't matter, if we are changing the way we review, remove cultural/historical significance and hange the wording for visually unique
I was joking, but yeah the point was: I don't like the idea of handing extra punishments to reviewers who follow the guide and come to an agreement with other reviewers, but whose decision is overruled through appeal. There is room for interpretation, and if reviewer gives honest answer "no I don't consider dog waste station nice place to socialize", it's not "wrong" or "abusive" answer even if not everyone agrees with that.
Dog garbage bins was only an illustration, could be swings, stairs, "artistic" apartment sign, military base gate, oldest tree in the village, etc.
The backlog is not a necessity. The world changes, and its people adapt and change with it. A backlog is the accumulation over time, just like a bunch of papers on a desk. If there are a large amount of nominations taking longer than a year, then that's the backlog. Some places like Finland and Sydney don't have this issue.
Anyway, I really hope you fix the issues with cooldowns. I received a 24-hour cooldown for rejecting consecutive endless spoofer gunk. It does not take me less than 30 seconds to decide that it should be reported for abuse, it takes two... but no I waited maybe for about 15-20 seconds and there you have it... "anomalous" behaviour and patterns.