Having an artist's name in the description is one thing, but I don't think social media handles are appropriate for the description, and they should be saved for the supporting info instead.
I completely agree with you - no tags is in criteria - but was having a discussion that the Instagram tag IS the artist's signature now, especially on murals, so I wanted a ruling.
Hi there, @cyndiepooh-ING! We have reviewed the report and have made necessary changes to the Wayspot and have taken action on the Wayfinder in accordance with our policies. Thanks for helping us maintain the quality of the Wayspots.
I don't think action should have been taken on the Wayfinder for something innocent like adding an Instagram handle. Isn't that a bit... heavyhanded? I have added several Instagram handles (that also happen to be their artist names as well) into descriptions with no repercussions whatsoever. In fact, one of the current featured wayspots in my city DO CONTAIN handles as well.
Will you take action on people who try to at least credit the artist unlike many others who just call things "mural by a local artist"? Taking action in accordance with policies is not a valid statement. For example:
This Instagram is the social media page for a local muralist in Sydney called pro_graffiti_artist. He does not put his own name onto his murals, and heavily differentiates between "Pro Graffiti Artist" as a phrase and "pro_graffiti_artist" as his official signature. Is there a difference between using pro_graffiti_artist and mentioning it as an Instagram handle such as @pro_graffiti_artist?
I agree with others saying that this is too severe. Is it an ineligible description? Yes, sure, "no tags" is in the criteria (a bit hidden, but it is there).
But I don't think anyone would argue that this is abusive or malicious. I consider this to be equivalent to having a license plate or a watermark in the main photo. An honest mistake.
Perhaps all the person submitting the Waypoint got was an e-mail pointing out the error of their ways and saing "Please don't do it again, we have removed the Tag ourselves this time". That's the problem with a canned response.
Some official "Yes / No " comment on the question would be welcome.
That's what should have happened, for sure. Unfortunately, most probably it's the standard message that says Niantic "have confirmed that you have been submitting nominations that do not meet criteria" and treatening the suspension of Wayfarer and game accounts, without telling them any details whatsoever about what they did wrong.
I believe this was possibly a misunderstanding on Niantics part. @NianticGiffard. I believe this could have more easily just been edited possibly to not include the artists instagram tag? Should we edit these or have them removed & resubmitted? I’ve always assumed it to be easier to edit these & I assume OP who submitted may have not known this was in violation of ToS. It may possibly be better to just send out a warning to them that they have broken ToS & that this is a violation. I find it harsh to punish someone especially if they could have done this on accident, or if it were submitted years ago. This isn’t my submission & I would never add a tag like that to my description because I know better but I also find it harsh to punish someone for making a minor mistake. If we give out a warning sent to their email that also could possibly show on the Niantic Wayfarer contributions page through the website, users could possibly learn about their mistakes. I see this as an easy honest mistake & also an easy mistake to be edited by those of us who are veterans of this process anyways
@NianticGiffard I know criteria guidelines encourage us to put the official title of a piece if known; I have always assumed based on the criteria that Niantic would also prefer us to give the artist's name if known in cases where the object is an art piece. So if the artist themselves signs the piece with their Instagram handle (as many artists do), how is including that in the nomination something that is worthy of a warning?
I agree that "action" is extreme and hopefully a misunderstanding. I was just discussing this with some folks regarding a mural I was submitting, where the artist's full name is available online, but she signed the work with her @ instagram handle. I ended up going with "Name, also known as xyz on Instagram" but had the @ tag in there at first. That's literally how the mural was signed! I can't see why that would need to be something to punish.
@NianticGiffard following up, I was able to see that the "action" was to remove the artist's Instagram handle altogether.... this feels extremely disrespectful to me, as when I look up their given name I see a few murals but in order to find this mural I had to check Instagram. So having the tag in the description is giving proper artist credit, and removing it is failing to attribute the mural properly in the way that the artist themselves wants to be recognized. Can you please fix it back to the way it was submitted?
Just adding my voice to the chorus, I agree it's extreme to take punitive action against a nominator who credits an artist in the exact manner they signed their artwork.
I couldn't agree more, and second the request to reverse this action.
I have had the pleasure of meeting several artists over the years who paint murals. While I happen to know their real name, often times they sign their work with a tag or pseudonym. These tags are part of their brand and identity. Some of these murals take several days to complete depending how large or complex they are. Knowing how much time and technique goes into the process of painting a mural it is very disrespectful to not credit the artist.
I consider myself to be an artist as well. If someone were to post a photo of my work without crediting me, I would be quite unhappy about it. One of my biggest pet peeves when reviewing a nomination for a mural is when the submitter does not credit the artist. Especially when the work is very clearly signed. Always take the time to credit the artist.
I also feel that removing an artist's tag goes against one of Niantic's fundamental goals of getting outside and promoting exploring. If a wayspot has the artist's tag in it that I can look up, I can see more of their work and possibly make time to go see the work in person. Many artists are more well known by their tag than their real name. If an artist named John Smith goes by the tag abstractjohn, searching for their real name may not lead me to them, but searching their tag would.
Whilst I am still of the opinion that the artist's proper name without the Instagram tag is more appropriate for the submission (and I feel the change is justified if the tag was removed whilst keeping the name, as the artist is still credited that way, which is as it should be), I do agree with others that taking action against the nominator for this feels heavy handed, especially when you have seasoned wayfarers on this forum who weren't entirely sure of the proper way to handle this.
"We should not submit descriptions that ... include real names, initials..."
Wait, does that include real artist names? For example, if the well regarded British artist Antony Gormley was commissioned to make a sculpture in a park, then we shouldn't mention that the sculpture is by Antony Gormley?
This is a featured wayspot in Sydney by yours truly. Those artist names are the Instagram handles of the two artists who painted this bar the At sign. Will you take action? (also if action is taken on me, I can immediately advise everyone else what happened as the sacrificial lamb)
I echo all of the questions raised above. Are we not allowed to reference artist’s real names? On the Help page under the Reviewing a Wayspot Nomination section it says:
Give high ratings to: Titles and descriptions that include the artist’s name (for murals, statues, etc.)
If the artist signs the mural with their “@“ wouldn’t including it on the description just be crediting them for their work?
Credit should be given to the person who made the artwork, if they signed it, be that their name, their alias, or an @, it should be included in the description since that is official and ON the art.
In the case of the original post, Leaving it at "Mural of Shelley Duval by Cheyenne Randall" is fine. (@IndianGiver on Instagram) is... not so great. MAYBE just (@IndianGiver), but since its not on the mural itself and the name of the artist is already credited IDK how I feel about throwing the @tag out **** nilly when its not on the original piece.
Just trying to think of what Niantic is thinking. But since the @name is now what most artists do for their signature now... Its inevitable you're going to have MANY murals with this format. I'd just say leave the "on instagram, on twitter, on facebook" off.
There are thousands, if not millions, of Wayspots with peoples names in them, ranging from statues of universally known famous people (such a William Shakespear), or random nobodys names on memorial benches, of which neither scenario or anything in between has ever been a problem.
I could understand not wanting an artist's social media handle being included in a wayspot description, however I'd venture to say that the extreme majority of the time it is being included in the description is because that is how the artist signed their name on the artwork itself, which is likely included in the photo. Their name though, as an artist, should easily be fair game. Do you not want me to name Pablo Picasso, Michalangelo, or Salavdor Dali? If those artists are ok because they are famous, where exactly does the line get drawn. Niantic has always had a focus on local culture and history in regards to their Wayspots, so being universally famous shouldnt be a requirement.
On the topic of intentionally leaving out an artist's name and deliberately not crediting them, I think there are a lot of artists who would not take kindly to Niantic's multi-million dollar commercial enterprise of utilizing works of art as wayspots, reproducing those works of art digitally through photos and portal scans, and monetizing those locations and works of art via raids, battle beacons, etc. That seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Furthermore, to punish a person for this is completely laughable when actual, intentional, malicious attempts at abuse go unpunished every day, even when reported.
This is all around a very bad clarification and course of action. Perhaps you could discuss with @NianticTintino a better solution and clarification.
Exactly! It is completely ridiculous and absurd to think that a description of an artwork should not include the artist's name. Your (@NianticGiffard) second post makes it sound like we shouldn't mention artist names at all.
If that's your interpretation, then the original "Mona Lisa" which now resides at Louvre Museum (just an example, I didn't know if it becomes a real Wayspot or not) , should not be allowed if the description contains "...painted by Leonardo da Vinci". Is that so?
Whoops, I see this thread blew up after my comment!
Let me clarify the common query as I can see in the comments. Official title/artist's names in the description are fine (as even shared as a screenshot by @Roli112-PGO). But mentioning or tagging other accounts in the title/description are not allowed. I apologize for the confusion there.
That being said, we took action on the Wayfinder depending on the abuses done.
Comments
Having an artist's name in the description is one thing, but I don't think social media handles are appropriate for the description, and they should be saved for the supporting info instead.
I completely agree with you - no tags is in criteria - but was having a discussion that the Instagram tag IS the artist's signature now, especially on murals, so I wanted a ruling.
Hi there, @cyndiepooh-ING! We have reviewed the report and have made necessary changes to the Wayspot and have taken action on the Wayfinder in accordance with our policies. Thanks for helping us maintain the quality of the Wayspots.
I don't think action should have been taken on the Wayfinder for something innocent like adding an Instagram handle. Isn't that a bit... heavyhanded? I have added several Instagram handles (that also happen to be their artist names as well) into descriptions with no repercussions whatsoever. In fact, one of the current featured wayspots in my city DO CONTAIN handles as well.
Will you take action on people who try to at least credit the artist unlike many others who just call things "mural by a local artist"? Taking action in accordance with policies is not a valid statement. For example:
This Instagram is the social media page for a local muralist in Sydney called pro_graffiti_artist. He does not put his own name onto his murals, and heavily differentiates between "Pro Graffiti Artist" as a phrase and "pro_graffiti_artist" as his official signature. Is there a difference between using pro_graffiti_artist and mentioning it as an Instagram handle such as @pro_graffiti_artist?
The OP only ask for the opinion, preferly Niantic's official stance. Why did you take action against the submitter instead?
I take it's a no, yes?
I agree with others saying that this is too severe. Is it an ineligible description? Yes, sure, "no tags" is in the criteria (a bit hidden, but it is there).
But I don't think anyone would argue that this is abusive or malicious. I consider this to be equivalent to having a license plate or a watermark in the main photo. An honest mistake.
Um - does that mean that Instagram tags are not allowed?
Or does that mean no action was needed?
Perhaps all the person submitting the Waypoint got was an e-mail pointing out the error of their ways and saing "Please don't do it again, we have removed the Tag ourselves this time". That's the problem with a canned response.
Some official "Yes / No " comment on the question would be welcome.
That's what should have happened, for sure. Unfortunately, most probably it's the standard message that says Niantic "have confirmed that you have been submitting nominations that do not meet criteria" and treatening the suspension of Wayfarer and game accounts, without telling them any details whatsoever about what they did wrong.
I believe this was possibly a misunderstanding on Niantics part. @NianticGiffard. I believe this could have more easily just been edited possibly to not include the artists instagram tag? Should we edit these or have them removed & resubmitted? I’ve always assumed it to be easier to edit these & I assume OP who submitted may have not known this was in violation of ToS. It may possibly be better to just send out a warning to them that they have broken ToS & that this is a violation. I find it harsh to punish someone especially if they could have done this on accident, or if it were submitted years ago. This isn’t my submission & I would never add a tag like that to my description because I know better but I also find it harsh to punish someone for making a minor mistake. If we give out a warning sent to their email that also could possibly show on the Niantic Wayfarer contributions page through the website, users could possibly learn about their mistakes. I see this as an easy honest mistake & also an easy mistake to be edited by those of us who are veterans of this process anyways
@NianticGiffard I know criteria guidelines encourage us to put the official title of a piece if known; I have always assumed based on the criteria that Niantic would also prefer us to give the artist's name if known in cases where the object is an art piece. So if the artist themselves signs the piece with their Instagram handle (as many artists do), how is including that in the nomination something that is worthy of a warning?
I agree that "action" is extreme and hopefully a misunderstanding. I was just discussing this with some folks regarding a mural I was submitting, where the artist's full name is available online, but she signed the work with her @ instagram handle. I ended up going with "Name, also known as xyz on Instagram" but had the @ tag in there at first. That's literally how the mural was signed! I can't see why that would need to be something to punish.
@NianticGiffard following up, I was able to see that the "action" was to remove the artist's Instagram handle altogether.... this feels extremely disrespectful to me, as when I look up their given name I see a few murals but in order to find this mural I had to check Instagram. So having the tag in the description is giving proper artist credit, and removing it is failing to attribute the mural properly in the way that the artist themselves wants to be recognized. Can you please fix it back to the way it was submitted?
Just adding my voice to the chorus, I agree it's extreme to take punitive action against a nominator who credits an artist in the exact manner they signed their artwork.
Social media handles are not allowed. People could always look up the artist by name and find their Instagram account that way.
I couldn't agree more, and second the request to reverse this action.
I have had the pleasure of meeting several artists over the years who paint murals. While I happen to know their real name, often times they sign their work with a tag or pseudonym. These tags are part of their brand and identity. Some of these murals take several days to complete depending how large or complex they are. Knowing how much time and technique goes into the process of painting a mural it is very disrespectful to not credit the artist.
I consider myself to be an artist as well. If someone were to post a photo of my work without crediting me, I would be quite unhappy about it. One of my biggest pet peeves when reviewing a nomination for a mural is when the submitter does not credit the artist. Especially when the work is very clearly signed. Always take the time to credit the artist.
I also feel that removing an artist's tag goes against one of Niantic's fundamental goals of getting outside and promoting exploring. If a wayspot has the artist's tag in it that I can look up, I can see more of their work and possibly make time to go see the work in person. Many artists are more well known by their tag than their real name. If an artist named John Smith goes by the tag abstractjohn, searching for their real name may not lead me to them, but searching their tag would.
Whilst I am still of the opinion that the artist's proper name without the Instagram tag is more appropriate for the submission (and I feel the change is justified if the tag was removed whilst keeping the name, as the artist is still credited that way, which is as it should be), I do agree with others that taking action against the nominator for this feels heavy handed, especially when you have seasoned wayfarers on this forum who weren't entirely sure of the proper way to handle this.
@cyndiepooh-ING - Answering your query, they should not tag any account or people in the description. We should not submit descriptions that:
Having said that, we won't be able to reverse the action on the Wayfinder since it is promoting a social media account.
No, it is promoting the artist’s name that they choose to go by. The fact that it coincides with their social media account is incidental.
"We should not submit descriptions that ... include real names, initials..."
Wait, does that include real artist names? For example, if the well regarded British artist Antony Gormley was commissioned to make a sculpture in a park, then we shouldn't mention that the sculpture is by Antony Gormley?
This is a featured wayspot in Sydney by yours truly. Those artist names are the Instagram handles of the two artists who painted this bar the At sign. Will you take action? (also if action is taken on me, I can immediately advise everyone else what happened as the sacrificial lamb)
I echo all of the questions raised above. Are we not allowed to reference artist’s real names? On the Help page under the Reviewing a Wayspot Nomination section it says:
Give high ratings to: Titles and descriptions that include the artist’s name (for murals, statues, etc.)
If the artist signs the mural with their “@“ wouldn’t including it on the description just be crediting them for their work?
My view is this.
Credit should be given to the person who made the artwork, if they signed it, be that their name, their alias, or an @, it should be included in the description since that is official and ON the art.
In the case of the original post, Leaving it at "Mural of Shelley Duval by Cheyenne Randall" is fine. (@IndianGiver on Instagram) is... not so great. MAYBE just (@IndianGiver), but since its not on the mural itself and the name of the artist is already credited IDK how I feel about throwing the @tag out **** nilly when its not on the original piece.
Just trying to think of what Niantic is thinking. But since the @name is now what most artists do for their signature now... Its inevitable you're going to have MANY murals with this format. I'd just say leave the "on instagram, on twitter, on facebook" off.
This is a really dumb slippery sl0pe.
There are thousands, if not millions, of Wayspots with peoples names in them, ranging from statues of universally known famous people (such a William Shakespear), or random nobodys names on memorial benches, of which neither scenario or anything in between has ever been a problem.
I could understand not wanting an artist's social media handle being included in a wayspot description, however I'd venture to say that the extreme majority of the time it is being included in the description is because that is how the artist signed their name on the artwork itself, which is likely included in the photo. Their name though, as an artist, should easily be fair game. Do you not want me to name Pablo Picasso, Michalangelo, or Salavdor Dali? If those artists are ok because they are famous, where exactly does the line get drawn. Niantic has always had a focus on local culture and history in regards to their Wayspots, so being universally famous shouldnt be a requirement.
On the topic of intentionally leaving out an artist's name and deliberately not crediting them, I think there are a lot of artists who would not take kindly to Niantic's multi-million dollar commercial enterprise of utilizing works of art as wayspots, reproducing those works of art digitally through photos and portal scans, and monetizing those locations and works of art via raids, battle beacons, etc. That seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Furthermore, to punish a person for this is completely laughable when actual, intentional, malicious attempts at abuse go unpunished every day, even when reported.
This is all around a very bad clarification and course of action. Perhaps you could discuss with @NianticTintino a better solution and clarification.
@NianticGiffard
Exactly! It is completely ridiculous and absurd to think that a description of an artwork should not include the artist's name. Your (@NianticGiffard) second post makes it sound like we shouldn't mention artist names at all.
If that's your interpretation, then the original "Mona Lisa" which now resides at Louvre Museum (just an example, I didn't know if it becomes a real Wayspot or not) , should not be allowed if the description contains "...painted by Leonardo da Vinci". Is that so?
Or, could you elaborate more?
Whoops, I see this thread blew up after my comment!
Let me clarify the common query as I can see in the comments. Official title/artist's names in the description are fine (as even shared as a screenshot by @Roli112-PGO). But mentioning or tagging other accounts in the title/description are not allowed. I apologize for the confusion there.
That being said, we took action on the Wayfinder depending on the abuses done.
So, just to be really, really sure:
"Artwork painted by Mr Spraypaint" = acceptable ?
"Artwork painted by @MrSpraypaint" = not acceptable ?
Just to make you really, really sure:
Artwork painted by Mr Spraypaint. = acceptable
Artwork painted by @MrSpraypaint" = not acceptable