Scout Hut Clarification

HankWolfman-PGOHankWolfman-PGO Posts: 4,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

Scout huts have long been considered to be under the K-12 umbrella in the past, with Casey stating that they'd be ineligible if the hut was primarily used for scout activities.

Recently I attempted to get a local wayspot at a scout hut removed due to my understanding that this was still the case. However, @NianticVK declined my request stating that it doesn't meet the removal criteria. I know that Niantic don't always get things right the first time around, but I was inspired to create this post due to a new tweet by Niantic.

Given my prior experience on the forum, and the fact that Niantic have now partnered with Scouts UK, including specifically mentioning the link to exploration in the tweet, it leaves me wondering if the Wayfarer criteria would now consider scout huts to be acceptable wayspot candidates?

@NianticTintino @NianticGiffard do you have any insight to offer on this subject?

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Comments

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Until Niantic actually say "Yes" to Scout huts in the UK, and by extension Guides, Brownies, Air Cadets, Sea Scouts, ATC and Boys Brigade, and that comment makes it to the official criteria, then it's still K-12 for all of them for me.

  • HankWolfman-PGOHankWolfman-PGO Posts: 4,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't disagree there. I'm still using those guidelines. I just thought it was worth asking about given the circumstances :)

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That badge is for the scouts to wear. Do private businesses often host UK scout badges?

    Irrelevant to the wayspot question, but I'm curious how common that is. Is there a Google Scout badge? United Airlines? Nabisco? Marmite? Are the children walking billboards?

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The answer is Yes - this is not the first "sponsored" badge for UK Scouts and / or Guides.

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow.

    But I can't see the correlation:

    Niantic trying to get scouts to get out and explore (and use their product) --> therefore private scout buildings should have strangers hanging around.

    It's still creepy. And leaders are still trained to call the police if suspicious strangers are hanging around.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    Scout buildings can have other people around all the time.

    The closet one to me is next to a takeaway fish and chip shop. So it is a place where people stand around. They tend to stand outside the scout hut as the other buildings around are houses.

    Another which is a Guide and scout hut is in a park next to a cafe, with several info boards. So people again hang around, walk past It is so close there is no way it would be in either game.

    So it’s not necessarily about people being near, presumably it’s just that it used by under 18s. And none of it is creepy

    i’m curious about what Niantic would say with this badge - game link, until anything to contrary is said obviously the blanket refusal stays in place.

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The blanket ban has to stay for all the appropriate reasons "K-12" sites are not eligible to be Waypoints. It's hard enough sometimes to get the K-12 category understood, particularly when it is clear that a significant number of submitters have either not read and understood or have just ignored the criteria and nominated the local primary school or Scout hut - the "Ohh look - a sign - must nominate it 'help the community grow, lots of footfall and children gather here' " type posts.

    Now add the potential confusion of "Scout Huts in the UK only are no longer considered to be K-12 sites, but this still applies to Guides and Air Cadets and other current K-12 sites in the UK" and see how many more arguments and complaints and non-eligible nominations are generated worldwide.

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Elijustrying-ING So nominate the bait shop or the park cafe. The Scout huts are for children (k-12) and are not eligible.

    A rare Scout hut having proximity to something else - doesn't change the fact that the hut itself is not a valid wayspot.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    I’ve not said that scout huts are valid at all.

    I’ve simply given examples to illustrate that people gathering outside one is not the reason. Being K12 is.

    I also think it would cause confusion, to have an U.K. only exemption.

    However as @HankWolfman-PGO has raised, there is now currently a bit of an odd situation ( which his original post describes well) and it would be useful to know a little more.

  • FunneIWeb-INGFunneIWeb-ING Posts: 237 ✭✭✭✭

    I am trying to find clarification on whether scout huts are k-12 and I can't find a clear answer. I have reported several scout huts as k-12 in the past and they were quickly removed but my latest report was denied. I posted it on the forum under appeals but have not had a response. https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/44075/are-scout-huts-not-considered-k-12-anymore

    I have searched the forum myself for an answer but there are instances of Niantic staff both accepting and rejecting removals, others have had no response like me. @PkmnTrainerJ-ING you previously had a scout hut removed in Nov 21. https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/25923/invalid-wayspot-scout-hut

    The only official statement I found is archived and this has a disclaimer at the top saying that this is outdated, and the new database that it links to has no results when I search for scout(s). https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/143/scout-and-guide-huts

    This thread which includes @Elijustrying-ING says they are now working with the scouts, but didnt get an official response from Niantic.

    Can I ask you ambassadors if Niantic have an official stance on scout huts? I think it's an important criteria clarification.

  • HankWolfman-PGOHankWolfman-PGO Posts: 4,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The one that I reported never did get removed. The only thing it's used for outside of scouting activities is as a polling station during elections. I gave up on trying to get it removed in the end.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    Let me just say, first and foremost, that I don't accept scouts, guides, or youth centres that primarily serve K-12 purposes; due to the criteria and clarifications I've read.

    However, to play devil's advocate, this has always confused the hell out of me, with some contradictions and no real explainantion of the actual reasons for this.

    Schools, daycares, etc are obvious. They're a large area that you can't risk encouraging random people to wander around in. But basketball courts on school grounds are now acceptable...

    Gymnastics, dance studios, etc are quite often really only aimed at K-12 students, but they're acceptable?..

    "Adult oriented" stores/services are ineligible, but this excludes venues serving alcohol that are often 18+ locations or have areas restricted to 18+ (or 21+ depending on your country)...

    Places that have access restricted to only certain groups (members, residents, employees, etc) are acceptable...

    Youth centres are a bit odd in the fact that they are generally for 25 and unders in my country, so may have an argument for exclusion from K-12, given that the age range goes above 18? 🤷‍♀️


    Having said all of that, I also think that for the cohort expected to use scouts/guides halls, and other youth centres, they're an extremely valuable location that should be promoted for all of the reasons that are in the spirit of the criteria; so I've really never understood the restriction on these particular locations (particularly in light of other restricted access location eligibility).

    In countries where these venues are commonly small halls or shopfronts in public spaces with high general public foot traffic, there's little to no risk of issues with trespass, etc. This seems to be part of the reason that they make it through more often in places where this is the case. It seems reasonable that the cultural differences in these places may allow for some leeway (and they're often further sold as places that can be for public hire).

    I've also encountered situations where it was impossible to tell that a "**** camp" with walking trails etc was actually for youths until I saw more nominations come through that made me start questioning it. The trail markers themselves had no mention of the **** camp and no way to guess this was the case, so up until that point they seemed perfectly eligible and acceptable on their own merit and I still don't know if the association with a nearby **** camp restricted access or should have really changed eligibility 🤷‍♀️


    Anyway, just some considerations for Niantic to clarify their purpose with this restriction, if they ever choose to do so 🤷‍♀️

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    OMG 8ush? Is George **** banned too? 😅

  • Faversham71-PGOFaversham71-PGO Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't have a strong opinion on whether they should be K12 or not, but it would be useful if Niantic gave a clear instruction one way or the other. They used to be K12 if their main purpose was as a scout hall rather than being a general community hall that was occasionally used by scouts, but with Niantic seemingly approving some scout hall submissions I haven't a clue how I'm supposed to vote on them.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    They have said previously that basically any location that is primarily intended for that age range should be rejected as K-12, so I currently reject the scout halls, youth centres, etc.

    I try to remove a lot of niggling uncertainty on some of these poorly explained/worded criteria specifics by letting the spirit of the eligibility criteria guide my judgements. With this in mind while reviewing, I do often think it's a real shame to have to reject most of these venues.

    I also get very anxious when it comes to reviewing things like gymnastics and dance studios that are listed as eligible, but I know are probably mostly used by children 😬

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gymnastics and dance studios are used by all ages and there is no restriction as to visiting the spot the same way there would be a restriction to visit a school.

  • RandomExploit-INGRandomExploit-ING Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe an ambassador (@Elijustrying-ING ) can get Niantic to clear up why things like scout huts should be rejected as K-12 but playgrounds where kids play are 100% accepted and not K-12 rejectable.

    Maybe then we could make a more informed decision on similar things.

    Currently it makes sense to reject schools but doesn't make sense to reject scout huts.

  • rufoushumming-PGOrufoushumming-PGO Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Generally scout huts are now multi purpose with different uses. Some scout huts have the name scout hut but are no longer for scouts. I have a local one which is heritage listed, dance hall, dragon boat base and scout hut. And was originally the mess hut for a sea plane base (awesome).

    I nominated as community hall - passed.

    It is a fine line. But if 100% scout / cub related only then I would have second thoughts and avoid. But if multipurpose then it is now clearly community focused. Most scout groups cannot afford their own place any more so they have diversified their property or now sold off and use government community halls.

    Cannot talk to other countries. But suspect UK is like Australia. But the US may have enough numbers to be still have a multitude of dedicated scout buildings.

    I guess nuanced!

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2023

    Speaking from the Midwest U.S., I'd never heard of a "scout hut" until Wayfarer, so I always assumed it was a U.K., Commonwealth, and/or European thing. Around here, scout troops tend to just rent a room at a church, school, or social lodge. After a quick search, apparently there are at least some in the U.S., though.

  • SethMizudori-PGOSethMizudori-PGO Posts: 320 ✭✭✭

    It would be nice to get some clarity in all the active examples of k-12 rejections #Elijustrying-ING 

  • rufoushumming-PGOrufoushumming-PGO Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Speaking of scouting - and a total segue - do you think Niantics Camp Fire is errrrr a take on the Camp Fire scouting program?????

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    This isn't always the case, sometimes they fit the same description that @FunneIWeb-ING just used. In these cases, where the spaces are only expected to be used by school aged children, there might not be an explicit restriction, but it would be weird and creepy AF for random adults to be loitering 😅🤷‍♀️

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    I’m not a miracle worker when it comes to criteria 😉 but happy to talk.

    And in truth I see it the role of the Wayfarer Team to make decisions.

    I am not a huge fan of lots of fiddly rules where everything has to be tied down to precise situations and becomes a hard line. From what I have seen and read here over time about a range of global situations what works very nicely in one place doesn’t in another. I personally like having a set of principles to apply.

    I actually thought this was reasonably clear. 🙄

    I think that sometimes we are prone to try to overthink things.

    Locally play areas are where kids exercise and socialise - kids go there on their own.

    if a dance place caters for a wide range of ages then it’s not an issue. If it is obviously only for young children then no. In that final scenario it is normal for people to be standing around outside of it staring at their phones it would be a bit strange if they were none. They could be waiting for their kids you can’t tell.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    Fair enough, I know what you're saying and agree, but often things that seem straight forward or logical enough end up having odd caveats, innuendo, exceptions, regional/cultural differences, or just badly worded and conteadictory "clarifications" that make you question your understanding of the whole lot (what you were saying about PRP the other day, being one such instance) 😅

    I might start rejecting studios that I can confirm are for kids, then. I figured that Niantic said to let them through, so I should do what they wanted even if it didn't seem to make sense with the existence of K-12 rejection criteria 🤷‍♀️

    So would it be reasonable to start approving youth centres if it's my feeling that they don't adequately meet K-12 rejection criteria, since they ordinarily cater up to 25 years and often welcome all ages to attend events, showcases, etc? I'm more comfortable with those as a safe unrestricted Wayspot than some of the local dance and gymnastics studios (that are sometimes down small laneways and behind gated fences, also) 🤷‍♀️

    I'm still on the fence about scout halls, but they largely seem to be an easy accept here, so I'd be one of few still mostly voting to reject (unless a good argument is made for mixed use, which I've yet to see anybody bother making) 🤔

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Several reasons why I think it is wrong to reject dance studios. Even if I shared with your assessment that it should be rejected if it is for children, which I don’t, how do you know it is only for children? In addition, schools sit on their own property. Dance studios are in commercially zoned areas. There is no restriction for coming and going in these areas the way there is at a school.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    So you're saying you don't agree with NianticCasey's statement (and hence my "assessment") that it depends on the "primary purpose of the building" and anything that is "solely gathering place for people in the <18 age range" should be K-12 rejected? This would be the logical application of a K-12 rejection to me (without any further context as to the purpose or what exactly they're trying to avoid/accomplish) 🤷‍♀️

    It's not hard to confirm the ones geared towards children through their website (and often a myriad of "child safe policies" found there).

    Fair point about the location, if that's the case, but ours are often in odd out of the way or exclusive locations, often not on street fronts (sometimes with slightly dodgy pedestrian access in alleyways), often tucked in industrial estates and other odd out-of-the-way places.

    On second thought, it's more effort to check and my rating will likely suffer for no real benefit, so I might as well just stick to the status quo, regardless 🤷‍♀️

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, that statement was made in regards to scout huts, not dance studios. Plus, I had never heard that statement before and I dare say not many reviewers have.

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