20m rule, Is it needed

Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 24 in April AMA - 2022

As in the title is the 20m rule needed anymore *i know some will argue this is an ingress issue, but ingress forum also said its a Wayfarer issue so we csn put it here and then if an ama comes up for ingress, we can put it there as well). You can see a general discussion of this in the general area, but no niantic employee gave their views, hence why I'm asking it here. Personally I (and many others) can't see a specific reason for it being in ingress anymore with the option to select close together objects, while the benefits would be more things will be submitted, less abuse of positioning/edits as people would be happy submitting away. It maybe doesn't need to fully go away, but 15m could be trialed, then 10, the 5. We have already seen that it not being there worked with the bug, so again I ask, is it needed anymore

Post edited by NianticTintino on
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  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If ingress had an ama, I would also ask it there. But the fact is, it does to an extent effect wayfarer.


    As for s2, I'd rather it was less strict such as allowing 2 in a cell if they are at opposite sides, I understand the need for the cells, but I've never defended the cells and have always wanted them lessened or the pois that aren't in game to be represented in some way

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can see the 20m rule would be a Wayfarer issue. Image if you were to spot an inappropriately photographed, incorrectly titled or incorrectly placed, or otherwise invalid Wayspot(s) when you were reviewing. It would leave you disgruntled, yes?

    Then consider the fact that the 20m rule means that Wayspot is in the system and now cannot be edited in any way. This means that when Niantic makes a new game, it could appear as an invalid or incorrect Wayspot. The 20m rule definitely needs some attention.

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does the 20m rule apply to PoGo or Pikmin? No? There’s your answer. It’s not a Wayfarer issue.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No, that's not an answer.

    Now, imagine for a second, if an S17 cell is already occupied by a Wayspot and a new Wayspot appears within 20m of another Wayspot located in the neigbouring S17 cell. That Wayspot within 20m of the other will not appear in Pokémon GO because the S17 was previously already occupied.

    I believe you failed to grasp what I was saying. I am concerned with the inability to edit Wayspots which do not appear in any game. These will linger in the system uselessly and add clutter to the reviewing map, especially if they are invalid.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Okay cool, but that still does not address the question of inaccurate Wayspots potentially appearing as potential duplicates when users are reviewing and unable to be edited from within any Niantic game. I would like to see this addressed.

  • AisforAndis-INGAisforAndis-ING Posts: 810 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I made a long post on Ingress forum yesterday that explains why the 20m rule needs to be changed:

    https://community.ingress.com/en/discussion/18763/why-the-20m-proximity-rule-for-portals-needs-to-be-reduced-or-removed

  • AisforAndis-INGAisforAndis-ING Posts: 810 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Following up on this, I got @NianticBrian-ING to respond to this thread on twitter.

    CrepitusOz’s reply sums up what I was trying to say on Niantic Social. Submitting and reviewing Portals that are where they’re located seems separate to our 20m rule, and like you mention in your post, other games (Catan, or future games) can use Wayspots that Ingress doesn’t.

    It would seem that the Ingress team doesn't understand just how intertwined Ingress and Wayfarer are, and that the 20m rule absolutely leads to pin-puhsing and other forms of Wayfarer abuse. This is rather disappointing given that Wayfarer's relationship with Ingress has barely changed since when it was OPR and Ingress exclusive.

    It seems like the Ingress team wants to leave this issue to the Wayfarer team and the Wayfarer team wants to leave this issue for the Ingress team, and no one is really acknowledging the problems of the 20m rule much less attempting to solve them.

  • Aquablast64-PGOAquablast64-PGO Posts: 45 ✭✭✭
    edited March 28

    Personally, I would expand this issue to the one Pokestop per S2 cell rule as well. People submit a lot of location edits in order to get Pokestops into Pokemon Go, duplicate nominations for POI because they are not in Pokemon Go, etc. By removing the S2 cell, it would hopefully lessen this issue.

    Post edited by Aquablast64-PGO on
  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I actually understand the s2 rule, though I do believe it could be reworked, as it seems daft that a pokestop in the top left corner would block something in the bitting right, but a stop in the top right of the next cell is fine

  • WestNewton25545-PGOWestNewton25545-PGO Posts: 2 ✭✭

    I understand it too, because they do not want everything to be too crowd with the Pokestops and all the spawns. (Especially, if they were to remove the 20m rule.) I feel they could increase it to 2 Pokestops per S2 cell and it would be fine imo.

  • Aquablast64-PGOAquablast64-PGO Posts: 45 ✭✭✭
    edited March 29

    Trust me, I definitely understand the rule. It makes sense, since they do not want everything to be too crowd for players. In my opinion, they probably could raise it to 2 Pokestops per S2 cells and it would still be fine.

    Post edited by Aquablast64-PGO on
  • ZinkyZonk-INGZinkyZonk-ING Posts: 236 ✭✭✭

    The reality is i won't be nominating until it's removed.

    This is the price of me participating. Niantic knows I make money for them.

    There are too many places where the gazebo is within 20m of the park sign.

    They can change the 17 cell for pogo too. Because that's why so many people cheat the system.

    Another company with greater understanding of equality will value walks in suburbia as much as they do in town and would make different choices.

  • ChicagoRay312-PGOChicagoRay312-PGO Posts: 49 ✭✭

    Yeah, I agree. It’s not sustainable. New, potentially more interesting Waystops will not be added to the game because of these silly rules.

  • Liediawa-PGOLiediawa-PGO Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    We call for standardization of the appearance rules of POIs, especially in PGo and no cell system, or at least a drastic reduction in the size of the stop cells! We want to have ALL accepted POIs in PGo, like Ingress, bc all are based on the same database! For more MeetYouOutThere!

    Last year, we added over 3.8 million new Wayspots. That’s almost 4 million new Gyms, Pokéstops, and Portals that our players can interact within the real world. Explorers, how many more Wayspots do you think we can add in 2022? (Niantic, 01/29/22)- there is sooo much more possible in PGo without or with a reduction of the cell system when you compare PGo and Ingress!

    Because we could have so many more stops to go out and discover new places, that’s the general slogan, right? (#MeetYouOutThere)

    Especially in Pokémon, we have been calling for the reduction of the stop cells to a minimum or rather the removal of the stop cells for years. The system is simply outdated and we want a revolution here too! Because this system is the main problem because the cells are just too large and many things can’t be submitted to Pokémon or even appear. But these have their raison to be there too. There is a reason that they have been accepted and are present in the database! They also contribute to discovering the world and going out. There are so many beautiful places in all the cities that can be rediscovered. I also don’t know all the places in my city and have been able to explore many only through new stops.

    Wayfarer should also comment on this because it’s getting more and more frustrating and it’s a pity that groups of players in individual games are being cheated on this point and only a small fraction of them can benefit from all the work, because

    •How many stops are there but only in Ingress?

    •People do the work, submit it and rate it for upgrades, but only get the answer that they’ve been declined, or you get the promise and nothing appears even though it’s been accepted!

    •Players submit for all games but benefit from only a fraction and players from other games submit things that others cannot benefit from either!

    I don't think there have ever been so many wrongly rejected as they are now. Many simply declined for "other reasons", "cultural reasons" or "temporary or seasonal establishment", while complying with the rules and seeing that they are permanent.

    Stops that are intentionally submitted to an occupied cell instead of their actual location, which can also often be seen on Google, are currently being discovered. Instead, they are often pushed forward 15 meters so that they CAN NOT appear in Pokemon.

    Many changes have to be submitted and Wayspot requests have to be made in such a way that a slightly changed location has to be specified for them to appear in the games at all. If both games have the same waypoints, editing requests are greatly reduced, especially when moving.

    Most reviews on Wayfarer are no longer taken critically, but rather arbitrarily. Many rates it, but not to rate suggestions according to their quality, but to get matches for their upgrades. It’s sad, but the quickest way to get an upgrade is with rejections, without even looking at the image, the text, and the additional information or the location.

    In addition, many places and countries invite more people to play and have more stops than others. This is also used by spoofers. Why does Niantic support this so openly? These places are hopelessly crowded and local players are deprived of any fun. Also, the places are sometimes more or less equipped with stops due to old regulations. This systematically favors or disadvantages places. It doesn’t have to be like this. Pokémon has been connecting everyone for years. Regardless of age, culture, or place of origin. This could be further promoted.

    And don´t be silly. Niantic will probably process or even pass on any data. They were also able to benefit from a change.

    Why don’t we approach this in general, but only about Wayfarer challenges for individual countries? A change would benefit everyone, but mostly the small towns and countries, which in turn would lead to more fun and more players. It’s sad that in small places only one or maybe two submissions made it, otherwise the cells are all over the place. This means that you can’t and don’t want to play there either. Why not make the game attractive there and win more players and earn more money?

    Do you even notice that you are currently just breaking the game, especially for players in the countryside or small towns?

    You can't always assume that everyone lives in big cities with lots of stops where it's really worth playing. Not everyone lives in San Francisco, NY or Tokyo, or Japan, i.e. where you have your offices. No, most of them don't live and play there and you're currently making this game almost impossible with stop cells or the latest changes to the smoke.

    We understand that you want to make us go out more and do something. But not like this! Even with more stops, the game can be well balanced, even without big timeouts. Not every stop has to be a spawning point and it’s not about getting thousands more arenas. Depending on the stops, new arenas should appear in the arena cells.

    Cross-game changes have already been made to the games. Our friends have already been connected. Completion of playing cards could lead to more satisfaction, acceptance, and fairness.

    Listen to the players. Especially after the removal of many stops (Niantic Support 11. 10. 21) in Pokémon and the subsequent outcry from players, the desire for more stops is well known. We do not want to hear it may be that we will use this proposal in the future. -No, use them now, for everyone!

    Please rethink this and develop general rules that apply to all games so that we can all benefit from it! There is so much more to discover!

    Otherwise, at least a test phase starts. You can change it again apparently quickly, as you have noticed when deleting many stops.

    #HearUSNiantic, for more #MeetYouOutThere

  • Liediawa-PGOLiediawa-PGO Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    So no, it is not needed anymore


     The black cells are used by Niantic. The white ones are the ones typically used to divide a map and use a grid, and also quite sufficient. The size and rotation mean far too much is easily covered and blocked. So reduce the sizes of the cells so we can get more stops to discover

     

  • dustinyeeaah-PGOdustinyeeaah-PGO Posts: 317 ✭✭✭✭

    Is it needed in Ingress Prime? Definitely not, because you can click a cluster of Portals and can choose which Portal you want to interact with. Portals and Items are the only objects you can click on a map and items on the map are rare. This is a huge upgrade to the old Ingress game

    Is it needed in Pokémon GO? I would say it depends. Due to Pokémon spawning near Stops/Gyms, sometimes it gets really difficult to interact with the object I want to click. Maybe implement this "choose Object"-method like in Ingress Prime? The map shouldn't look overflooded though

  • Liediawa-PGOLiediawa-PGO Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    Well there was already the opportunity to switch off some features in the game (fights) to focus on catching. So this would probably be feasible.

    And it doesn’t have to be every POI a great spawning point.


    But there are places that are more worth playing than others. So I would also like to take advantage of all the possibilities there.



     

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very different games, very different mechanics. PoGo shouldn't get all the perks and have none of the liabilities.

  • Liediawa-PGOLiediawa-PGO Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    Why? The basic principle is the same. You’re supposed to go out and explore the world. In Pokemon, however, many good places are simply taken away or not allowed at all.

    Just because the game content is different doesn’t mean that Pokemon should be punished like this.

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pokemon Go isn't being punished. They are using a density that matches its gameplay mechanics. Unless you want to be able to spin a stop four times then have to wait through a 4-hour cooldown to spin again and not be able to catch any Pokemon in between stops and gyms. So even if it uses fewer locations, it has many other gameplay advantages over Ingress and thus has a lesser need for Wayspots than a game that is entirely designed around interacting with Wayspots. And I have not yet seen a Pokmeon Go player say that they are willing to accept those gameplay limitations that Ingress players have to deal with (effectively changing the game entirely) if it means they will get more stops.

  • Liediawa-PGOLiediawa-PGO Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    But you want to bring people out the door, mechanically so that people get their **** out. hence also the caustic of the smoke. But instead of luring with lucrative locations, game functions are almost completely restricted. Is that an incentive to go out? - No!

    And you can even out the game that way, despite more stops. Not every point has to be a big spawn point, the crowd would do that. Small towns would benefit and there would be more players there too. And there is already a time-out. Less than 4 hours, that would be more than exaggerated here, but there is such a thing.

     And let's be honest, apparently it's all about going out and meeting other people. This is only possible at good venues with many stops, because otherwise hardly anyone goes to play in such areas. There's no good smoke left, so more stops would be a good balance.


    Arguing from the Wayfarer point, all hard-working explorers are simply fooled, lied to and cheated here, and the innocence of some is also played with, where new things are called for on all channels.

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭✭✭

    More Wayspots in a smaller area doesn't encourage people to explore and exercise. In fact, it does the exact opposite, it encourages people to be more lazy, just like the 80m interaction radius caused more PoGo players to be lazyer because they don't have to move around as much.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although the topic is different from Wayfarer, the various changes made recently in Pokémon GO are probably to remedy this lazy situation.

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