Clay pigeon pow pow and Archery Clubs

RandomExploit-INGRandomExploit-ING Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭

Criteria doesn't seem to cover these cover explicitly although 'ranges' are mentioned. Another thread here didn't clarify much tbh so figured I would gauge opinions, against my better judgement lol ;)

* Archery Clubs

* Clay pigeon shoooting clubs

Both are outdoor sports, so encourage outdoor activity.

There are extreme safety measures in place at these places in the UK at these places so very safe. The layout of entrances and where you go is all done in the name of safety so people can't just walk past people firing whatever. In clay pigeon clubs , other members are always behind the person aiming at the clay pigeons. On archery Clubs/courses you go around I specially designed course with arrows showing you the direction so that no one is ever in front of an arrow. No one can collect their arrows until the last person in that group has fired their last arrow. The next group has to wait until the previous group moves on to the next target which is always to the side and never ahead, again all for safety.

My point being, these places are safe, especially in the UK. You can't just walk in to areas where the action is.

So with that in mind, how would you vote on related submissions?

I don't think targets would be good submissions, even the 3D animal ones, but the club house or signs for it I think could be ok. The POI's away from the action but related to the club.

I have had both rejected before, one for bad quality photo which I can accept (I could have framed it so much better) even if what I could submit was limited. For the clay pigeon one, I could only submit one of their banners outside the range, which I think is reasonable and the safest option.

The other was rejected for mismatched location simply because it didn't have a photosphere. The club hut doesn't look like much but they had the archery club emblem tied up really high up a tree and it was away from the ranges.

So obviously I think in these circumstances they should be fine. Not so sure about countries with less rules but I think Niantic have shown that regional variations can be ok.

What are your views as voters?

(Apologies for the long post!)

Comments

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,482 Ambassador

    Archery is quite different, I first came across it in school.

    Our local archery club is based in a specific area of a large park - so very much part of the park. They hold regular open events for anyone to join in and try out the sport.

    So not adult orientated.

    Archery week is coming up soon


  • HankWolfman-PGOHankWolfman-PGO Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the above comments regarding the clay pigeon nomination and would reject it if I saw it whilst reviewing.

    Archery is more of a grey area for me, but having just been on Google, it does say that archers in the UK must follow the Archery GB Code of Sh°°ting, which kinda makes me think it would fall into the same category.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2022

    Clay pigeon and archery, which are also Olympic events, are eligible from a sports perspective and may be approved.


    But there is a group of players who are willing to expand the criteria.

    They use external social networking sites that Niantic is not involved with to propagate their own theories, which they interpret as hoaxes.

    This obviously could lead to the approval of public **** ranges and the like.


    Therefore, if strict operation can be achieved by admonishing such an expansive interpretation, I am willing to approve it, but I cannot say yes with certainty when asked if Niantic and Wayfinder can achieve such operation.


    In Japan, martial arts and athletic facilities are generally operated as the same facility.

    Martial arts include judo, kendo, karate, aikido, etc., as well as kyudo (Japanese archery).

    Kyudo, like archery, is a target **** sport with a bow.

    In Japan, Kyudo is divided into two sports: archery is the ancient Japanese form of archery, while archery was introduced from overseas, but both are recognized as sports.

    And as a wayspot, Budokan is approved as a sports facility.

  • RandomExploit-INGRandomExploit-ING Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw this before but Clay Pigeon Shoooting is not the same as a firing range.

    It's also not a firearm store. Some people in this thread have likened it to one but that's off their own backs.

    Going by my appeals success, voters are often wrong but i'm not actually here to argue the case, Just wanted to gauge how voters would see it and different areas of these grounds and I have my answer. Kind of what I expected from the usual suspects. Thanks all 👍

  • Purptacular-PGOPurptacular-PGO Posts: 284 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2022

    Great discussion. At our local park here in the US, we have both an archery practice range and a woodland 3D archery course.

    The archery range has a wooden stand, where participants gather to aim and draw their arrows, and several targets located many yards away. The stand was submitted and approved as a Wayspot several years ago. In terms of safety, I feel MUCH safer walking near and up to the archery stand in the park than I do walking on city sidewalks near any kind of vehicle traffic.

    I submitted the 3D woodland archery course some time ago and had it denied for "not meeting criteria." This course is structured similar to a disc golf course, with numbered posts where the archer stands to aim, and corresponding targets many yards away. There is no sign for the course, so I submitted the course with the first numbered post as an anchor. Since we get no feedback on rejections, I don't know whether reviewers disliked my submission because they felt the numbered post was inadequate as a place marker, for safety concerns, or because they did not understand that the woodland course was a separate park feature from the previously approved archery range. I have submitted an appeal for this nomination and will be interested to see what response I get.

    I feel that archery practice areas and clubs meet criteria as great places for exercise and to be social with others, but the submitter should be extra careful to choose an appropriate location to anchor the submission, with a thorough explanation of the safety of that location in the supporting information. Obviously anything near the targets would not be acceptable. A sign at the entrance, away from the actual practice area would be ideal. I personally think the stand or blind area is also a safe place but I am sure that is more open to debate.

  • RandomExploit-INGRandomExploit-ING Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's akin to saying do you pedal an excercise bike? If yes, it's the same as a bike. But it's not.


    Google image search 'shoiting range' and every image you will see will be of...a shoiting range.

    Sho*ting ranges tend to have people side by side, often sho*ting at the the same time and down a narrow angle of aiming and always directly ahead. Mostly indoors, occasionally outdoors.

    Clay pigeon is aiming in the air with different types of guuns usually than what would be seen at a sho*ting range and in a bigger arena, one person at a time.

    It's like comparing chalk and cheese

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2022

    I RAN a clay pigeon area at a mountain retreat one winter and in terms of safety, walking around there with your head down is zero-point-zero percent safer than at a “range” as you describe it. For Wayfarer, if the place in question is for the discharge of f1rearms, it is ineligible, and for good reason.

    Archery I’d accept as a good place to exercise, and I know three existing archery POIs in public parks within driving distance of me right now.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2022

    I think this issue would benefit from clarification of the criteria by Niantic.

    Aside from clay pigeon and archery as sports, there are other sports that actually use guns and bows.

    Air pistol, rifle, biathlon, archery, etc.


    Even if the result is to disallow all of them, that should be subject to Niantic's ruling.


    @NianticGiffard

    Could you please include this matter in the discussions between the Wayfarer team and the Ambassadors?

    Post edited by tp235-ING on
  • RandomExploit-INGRandomExploit-ING Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just had a Motorcross track rejected. Another outdoor sport where you couldn't play the game on the track but the POI position wasn't in the middle of the track where people would be riding, but beside it where people enter. As with the other sports mentioned here, no one is going to accept a submission in a dangerous area but there are plenty of safe areas at these locations which still promote it as an outdoor activity to go to, with no danger whatsoever

  • Fiadnaita-PGOFiadnaita-PGO Posts: 51 ✭✭✭

    I used to teach archery in the 90s to both adults and children (10+). We moved our range because too many people just wandered in and wanted to "stand on the sidelines" to watch. The sidelines, though, aren't a safe area, particularly with newbie archers, who don't have much control yet. The foot traffic was too distracting, and the "visitors" wouldn't stay a safe distance behind the archers -- and this was before everyone had a cell phone. I can't imagine the nightmare of teaching a beginners' class while people tromp through playing AR games.

    My guess is that this is another liability issue for Niantic. They don't want anyone accusing them of sending players into potentially unsafe areas.

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The motocross track certainly sounds like it should have been accepted (barring any other issues with the nomination, of course). Unlike the other nominations discussed here, the sport doesn't involve any sort of weapon.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on the pew pew being used, I'd say clay podgeons is a no. But archery I don't see why not used to work with 2 people who ran archery classes and they started as young as 10, so it's not adult orientated, so don't see any reason why an archery club house or designated archery place can't be one, it's sport and socialising

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the motocross track is hosting an official competition sponsored by a competitive organization, it might be a good idea to explain this by including the motocross bike (or motorcycle) competition in the supplemental information.

    I have explained this in the past for motorcycle trials tracks.

  • 0X00FF00-ING0X00FF00-ING Posts: 769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A pet peeve of mine: a GOLF driving “range” is decidedly NOT part of this adult-oriented prohibition. Yet the one I’ve submitted has been repeatedly rejected, despite being a place that encourages outdoor activity.

  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For the archery course, I'd be concerned about clueless gamers walking through the course from an unexpected direction to get to the first "tee". That being said, I'd approve an indoor archery range or a sign for the woodland course that was in the parking lot or somewhere else people were unlikely to try to reach by cutting across the course with their heads in their phones.

  • Purptacular-PGOPurptacular-PGO Posts: 284 ✭✭✭✭

    Thank you and all who commented here about safety concerns. Because I have walked the ground where this course is located many times, I know how safely it is arranged. There is an open trail where archers and hikers can walk safely throughout the course. The "tees" are located to one side of this trail, with targets backed up against a hill. The area behind the targets is too steep to walk across, and no one would consider cutting through the area between targets because the area is covered with heavy brush. The only reasonable place to walk is the trail. But I definitely see how conscientious reviewers would be concerned about safety and will keep that in mind if I ever resubmit this course.

  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah. That's definitely something case-by-case and the reviewers and submitters would have to take a look at what the safety features are for the course. I suspect reviewers will be much more strict about it than submitters, especially as these kind of features you described are unlikely to be obvious from satellite photos.

  • RandomExploit-INGRandomExploit-ING Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In before someone says a bike can be a weapon / more **** than an arrow xD


    Again, It's a shame common sense can't be relied upon and safe parts of a course such as entrance signs to clubs and club houses can't be approved while dangerous areas such as where targets are still get denied.

    A golf driving range is not much different from ranges we are talking about where people stand in a line and aim down the range. It's crazy driving ranges get rejected

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