Supporting Rural & Remote Communities - Discussion

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Comments

  • kitunefree-PGOkitunefree-PGO Posts: 14 ✭✭

    I've read all the threads and can't seem to find a way to increase wayspot to the countryside. I'm talking about Pokemon go, but as a result I often feel there is too much difference in wayspot and an unfair difference. There are places where you can collect 6 wayspot without walking a single step if you are in what is considered an urban area. However, in the countryside, there are places where you can barely walk 3km to get one. I think this is causing inequality among players, but I also see that the problem is that there is no place to apply, whether the application is accepted or not. How can this be resolved? I have been submitting a lot of applications recently, and I received a chat in support saying that if I apply for something that is rejected and rejected by Niantic every day, there is a possibility that I will be banned. In Japan, there are some bad people called "rejectors". (In Japan, there are some bad people called "Rejectman", which is a term used to refer to people who only reject applications.)

    I think the problem is how to increase the number of them.

    *Of course, I understand that not everything is acceptable if it meets the appropriate criteria.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You seem to be in the wrong mindset.

    This is a pure fact, Niantic games can' t make a wayspot where a POI does not exist.

    And unfortunately, farmland and forests don't meet the criteria for a wayspot.

    Niantic requires you to go to where the POI is located.

    If the POI isn't a wayspot, you can nominate it and get a review.

    Wayfarer is the place that oversees this wayspot.


    You can nominate a wayspot that you think is a POI, or appeal if it was denied but you are not in agreement.

    There is also a dedicated room here to improve this nomination.

    You can visit there to improve your nomination and increase your wayspot.


    And since you say you understand the criteria, you should be fine, but if you don't agree that farmland, mountain forests, and common bus stops are not wayspots, and you think rural areas should be given special status, then Niantic's game isn't for you.


    This is my advice to you as someone who lives in a rural area and has built over 100 wayspots in a place where there was only one wayspot in town.

  • kitunefree-PGOkitunefree-PGO Posts: 14 ✭✭


    I guess I didn't word it right, I'm using a translator so the nuance may be different.

    I understand that you can't apply for forests, etc., so of course I didn't apply for those kinds of things. I have applied for many things that are unique to where I live (special artwork unique to the city), or common nationwide (parks, community centers), or unique.

    Your wording is easy to understand. People other than me who see this will understand it well.

    Please understand that I understand what you are saying (what I want to know most is how to increase 100 in the country where there was only one) and that I am not making numerous applications for personal purposes.

    Unfortunately, even if you try to increase the number of POIs in the so-called "countryside," you will often be rejected, and even if you submit a clear explanation that you have researched and gone to the archives so that the judges can see what you have submitted and understand that this is unique to that town, except for the reasons for rejection that make no sense, you will still be rejected. I thought it was necessary to provide more detailed feedback on which points were disapproved by the judges.

    In addition, there was a way to increase the better status in the countryside by giving up on the individual and asking the government, but this was not realistic. 

    The following cf.(https://www.finchjapan.co.jp/434/)

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even if the POI is of sufficient quality to be approved, the approval rate will vary depending on the title, description, supplementary information, location, photos, etc.

    This is simply put: "A good POI will naturally be approved. But it doesn't have to be your nomination.”

    We do not have to approve nominations with incorrect titles, poor descriptions, inaccurate location information, or low quality photos, even if they are good POIs.

    The reviewer has no such responsibility.

    Therefore, the nominator must accurately nominate good POIs.

    We have seen that players who have recently started nominating POIs do not understand this.


    If you think your nomination is not getting approved, you can ask wayfinder to show you how to improve it at Nomination Improvement.

    Please feel free to discuss this with us.


    It is this kind of steady work that has allowed me to increase my town from only one to over 100.

    There is nothing magical about it.

    Still, my town is rural and not very developed, so there are only a few places that can become POIs.

    A POI is the result of an accumulation of culture and history, so the more of that culture and history, the more things that should become POIs.

    However, a place that was just recently a field will have fewer things that should be a POI.

    This can be clearly seen in Tokyo, Japan, one of the most famous cities in the world.

    Tokyo is one of the most densely populated cities in the world, but there are rather distinct shades of gray depending on the location.

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is more likelyhood of finding a Waypoint in an urban area than a rural area simply because there are far more potential candidates in a town then in the middle of a field. It has been like this since day one of Ingress, if you look at some of the "top badge" criteria in terms of how many portals you need to hack or how many resonators you need to deploy, the values were obviously set by people living in a very urban area with a very large number of portals. If you live in a more rural area some of these scores are almost out of reach. It's just the way it is. So you live in a rural area, then Niantic want you to "explore" and go and find your nearest Waypoints.

    Is this Waypoint / Portal / Stop distribution "fair"? Probably not, if you consider to be "fair" waypoins need to be distributed evenly and at high density. However, thats the way the mechanics of the game work, in much the same way as the distribution of Pokestops work. Not everybody can have a Stop outside their house, and some player may be forced to excercise to find a stop.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NianticTintino

    Sorry, but without clarification of the definitions of rural and remote in this thread, further discussion is meaningless.

    What exactly do you consider rural and remote areas in this thread?


    Are you referring to places where there are plenty of POIs but the wayspot density for the country or region as a whole is low, such as in Africa, the Middle East, some Southeast Asia, or Micronesia?

    Or do you mean places where there are enough wayspot densities for the entire country or region but the wayspot density within it is low, such as countries in North America, Far East Asia, and Western European regions?


    Please clarify this first definition.

    With that, we would like to have a good discussion and present certain conclusions and recommendations to the Wayfarer team and ambassadors.

  • PkmnTrainerJ-INGPkmnTrainerJ-ING Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ll bump this one too, why not. What’s come from the discussions between the Ambassadors & Niantic on this topic. Anything we will see the benefits of?

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Outlook not so good.

  • PkmnTrainerJ-INGPkmnTrainerJ-ING Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Damn that super accurate Magic 8 Ball. I should have never trusted that genie.

  • Qvirinia-PGOQvirinia-PGO Posts: 9 ✭✭


    Yeah. I've been trying to nominate two posts in a fishing village where my husband's family is from. There is a leading mark that I've been trying to offer as a point. It is in the dry pine forest, with cleared area towards southeast, a footpath leading to it. I had open sandals on when I went to take the photos (and I'm an elderly lady)! And the road some way off is a place where two cars at the same time is the rush hour. Finnish rules for "everyman's rights" tell you can walk in that forest and e.g. pick berries (there are blueberries and lingonberries) -- or hunt Pokémon. And one of the reasons given "no safe pedestrian access". Gaah.

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rural Places v/s People from the city:

    i have tons of contributions that were rejected because people thought "oh, that is in the woods. surely it cannot be there. also that place isnt okay."

    i have information for everyone that rejects:

    This is a forest

    This is a footpath

    If you have not been in a forest and on a footpath, please do so. There are no wild tigers, no spiders and trees falling on your head. There is no need to reject.


  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe the game themselves could take wayspot density into consideration. Like the "need 3 stops in this much area" to make a gym. If that results in no gyms for 25 square miles - then increase the area where 3 stops need to be.

    Also, there are lots of public lists that Niantic could upload as wayspots. For example, anywhere in the U.S., you could easily find a list of churches.

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Occasionally, I like to go on sub tours with my friends and drive out to Regional New South Wales. It feels weird to just go way out of our way to submit wayspots that we would rarely frequent. But it makes for very interesting trips, particularly when remote, untouched gyms that are created from the previous are part of the equation and they're fun to adventure out to. Often, we'll just sit down and review together in a regional town overnight and we'll find a lot of hidden nominations and edits that aren't pooled by the review areas of the big cities. Recently, we had a wayspot edit of a title called 'Home of the Deceased' approved which was submitted in December 2020, simply because a couple of us were reviewing in a small rural town called Yeoval.

    It might not be the best idea for cities and review areas where nominations take more than a year, but a way to help these rural/remote communities is to do a mixture of "oldest first", then by wayspot density, as well as increase the review area for all types of reviews, including for nominations and edits. Because what is more annoying than a "rural" community which is above a certain line with very little wayspots getting their nominations prioritised and reaching a decision within two weeks, and a nomination in an equally remote, that so happens to be on the other side of a certain urban line has to wait two years?

    I would like my review area for all kinds of nominations and edits to be drastically increased, but this should only be for the most dedicated and maybe fairest of wayfinders. Bonus locations do not do much for me.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We cannot draw our conclusions until Tintino clearly explains the definitions of rural and remote.

    This should lead to very different conclusions, depending on whether rural and remote refers to the Middle East, Africa, etc., or rural America.

    In the former case, the problem would be the number of reviewers and the lack of street views.

    In the latter case, that is the limitation of Niantic's definition of POI. A cornfield is not a POI, nor can a road sign be approved.

    Niantic's idea of a POI must be a city where culture and history have existed longer and civilization has developed to a high density.

  • patsufredo-PGOpatsufredo-PGO Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, how's the actual goal and progression for this topic? Especially for areas lack of POIs to be nominated?

    Inkay Research Day was happened yesterday and too many people in rural communities are already complained for lack of Pokestops to spin in their area.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 1,918 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s not an easy one as by definition rural areas are lacking in built objects that city centres are full of.

    I thought some of the feedback from the criteria challenge may help, but others don’t 🤷‍♀️

    To help these areas there needs to be a better way to flex.

    A stand out that I think ( please say if wrong) is around safe pedestrian access. Rural areas tend to have low environmental impact as a selling point so dedicated walking space is often non-existent or a simple small grass verge. Traffic on small rural roads is low and people walk and stand safely that does not sit well with guidelines focussed traffic heavy city living. Village notice boards might not have a large paved area and end up rejected when the reality is that locally people do stand and read info.

    There may be one small shop that does everything, and is where everyone goes has social interaction etc But what chance does it have?

    I would like to see guidelines to both submitters and reviewers that would help these areas get these locally important POI into the database.

  • Sunlitgarden-INGSunlitgarden-ING Posts: 143 ✭✭✭

    Ped access is a big one. The discussion in the criteria clarification about the dice sculpture, PRP concerns aside, was "no sidewalks." Rural areas are almost never going to have sidewalks.

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At this point the best thing I can do to support rural areas is to go there and submit things. It would be very useful to have a map of underserved areas to target: right now Intel is my only resource, and I need to zoom in to a very local level to see what density looks like in each area. I think Lightship developers should be able to provide us with a data visualization that could better point us to areas under a workable density by highlighting spaces that fall under a certain threshold, as well as maybe calling out specific reviewing cells with a long backlog so that people could choose a more meaningful Bonus Area. These visualizations could be grouped into an overall Reviewer's Dashboard that would benefit us all.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 1,918 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the idea of a dash board or heat map of cell density.

    Sometimes when reviewing I see places and think I wonder if I could go there and spend the day submitting. So reviewing can be a good source of inspiration.

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    as my idea was stated here 2-3 times before, that matches, let the Wayfarer-Masterminds "claim" areas that are underpopulated.

    Niantic would submit the map with green (low) and red (high) density.

    For example, you tell Niantic that you want to submit things in "Green", or you already have, and you need a "fast track". Niantic could arrange it that these submissions will be reviewed asap, and you get some free submissions in return, so you could submit even more in that cell.

    The current system isnt working. I have contributed in a very low density area, but things are not moving forward. I wont repeat it again here, Niantic knows what the problems are, and you guys, too.

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, I think our ideas are slightly different. Although I do love @Hosette-ING's proposal of "widening" a submission's review area based on time in voting, my thought is to provide reviewers with good information so that they can focus their efforts rather than having Niantic implement a complex fast-tracking system. Simply knowing that an area needs more submitters (low density, not much in queue) or an area needs more reviewers (low-medium density, long queue) would be a big step.

    Right now I choose my yearly (should be more frequent) Bonus Area based on density of existing wayspots, but that might not be the most effective choice if that area is lightly populated because no one submits. I may also travel to a distant town to submit stuff, but nothing goes through because no one reviews there and the things I submit have already been added by others but are stuck in voting for ages.

    Allowing us to pick a Bonus Area with a lengthy queue of quality Wayspot candidates would then of course lead to getting more Agreements and Upgrades so that our elderly candidates could jump the line using the existing process. The only coding changes on Niantic's side would be in formulating the information that they have on hand into a usable, visual, accessible format.

  • PeteC303-INGPeteC303-ING Posts: 366 ✭✭✭

    Footpaths. Or lack of them shouldn’t be a issue. A safe place to stand like a grass verge or island. Many rural places I’ve been to I have to show the reviewer that there is a public right of way through a farmer’s field to get it accepted. Yet in the Ingress days it was a free for all and a footpath opposite was enough. Now people are obsessed with being able to touch something. When half the time most players walk with their heads down on the phone screen and don’t even look at let alone touch a real life waypoint.

  • PeteC303-INGPeteC303-ING Posts: 366 ✭✭✭

    Exactly obsessed. They didn’t care back in the day. Plenty of stuff safely accessible gets denied because of it.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PeteC303-ING I think I hear you arguing that people are obsessed with following Niantic's guidelines. I'm pretty OK with that.

  • 00xKenshi-PGO00xKenshi-PGO Posts: 10 ✭✭

    why not an PoGo Ingame Task for verified reviewers? Like AR Scanning you have an task to review an nomination, like in wayfarer.

    The Audience would become bigger and you will recieve pokeballs or a puffin

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