Mural in a Smoke/Vape shop

Would a mural inside a smoke or Vape shop be an appropriate nomination? In order to enter the establishment, you need to show your ID to prove you're 18+ to even get in. There's one that showed up in the game in my hometown, and I'm curious how it passed or if I missed something and it should be eligible.

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Comments

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,874 Ambassador

    If the mural is outside the building then a passerby wouldn't have to enter the establishment to enjoy the art. Generally speaking, if the art is unrelated to the business may be reviewed on its own. I would likely reject art that glorified smoking but accept it if it was otherwise culturally significant.

  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Location Inappropriate is for "adult oriented locations". It's not really clear exactly what that means, but having to show you're over 18 to enter is a pretty good proof it's "adult oriented", imho.

    You could try to get it removed if you don't think it's appropriate. I'm not sure what Niantic would do in this case, though, since adult-oriented is a bit of a gray area.

  • Glawhantojar-PGOGlawhantojar-PGO Posts: 3 ✭✭

    It's inside, which is the only reason I'm asking. You can see the mural from outside the building, but if I remember correctly one of the requirements is that you be able to walk up and touch it and you can't do that if you're under 18 with this. Kind of a grey area I guess.

  • Glawhantojar-PGOGlawhantojar-PGO Posts: 3 ✭✭

    Unfortunately "location inappropriate" isn't on the list of things you can submit in-game for a way spot being invalid. I guess they just assumed that those things would get caught in the review process lol

  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah. Not all of the removal reasons are. For example, "fake wayspot" is not an in-game removal option for some reason. You can report it with one of the random in-game options. After that report gets rejected, you can appeal in the Wayfarer help chat or on this forum in the removal appeals section and give the real reason.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,874 Ambassador

    To add on what JillJilyjabadoo said, you can also tag @Niantic Giffard in here with details of the Wayspot for further evaluation.

  • Melurra-PGOMelurra-PGO Posts: 234 ✭✭✭✭

    Similarly, this liquor store in my area got approved somehow. Even without the "adult-oriented" rejection criterion, I can't really see what would make it a good wayspot. However, none of the invalid wayspot report reasons seem applicable.

    https://intel.ingress.com/intel?ll=41.965151,-87.668519&z=18&pll=41.965168,-87.666577

  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Use the same process as OP and choose a random reason then appeal (or try tagging Giffard as suggested). Your appeal should definitely be accepted since liquor store is explicitly listed under "adult oriented" and it's the shop itself that's the wayspot, not a mural.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm unsure why the Mural inside would be ineligible just because you have to be "18 to get in to touch it"

    We have had numerous clarifications that a waypoint doesn't have to be accessible to everyone, as long as it's accessible to some. It's why wayspots are acceptable in paid amusement parks and gated communities and private businesses. So the fact that you have to be 18 to get in to touch it is irrelevent. Likewise, bars, casinos, and nightclubs have wayspots that likewise have age minimums.

    Nor are bars, casinos, and nightclubs rejected as Adult Oriented. And I find little difference between a place that markets smoke/vapes and one that markets gambling or alcohol.

    I tend to think "Adult Oriented" refers to ****-oriented businesses only. Because other wise, Bars/Nightclubs would also be on the banned list. Yet, many have even been featured examples of places to gather.

    You didn't put a picture of the wayspot in question but if it was acceptible inside a casino or bar, it's fine in a Vape shop IMO.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭

    Not an ingress player so can't see. BUT in 2016/17 the criteria were very different it was more a question of being unique/eye catching rather than the better standard explore.. If it had something eye catching like a Giant Bottle above it, it would have been acceptible in 2016. Back then a lot of more unique business signs made it in. Now a days, they dont.

  • Melurra-PGOMelurra-PGO Posts: 234 ✭✭✭✭

    Nothing special about it, just a typical liquor store. Here is a photo from Google Maps contributions, and the wayspot's photo is about the same. This wayspot appeared in Pokemon Go within the past couple months, I believe, definitely within the past year. I don't think it was in Ingress only before that. I will try reporting it next time I am nearby and go from there.


  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Liquor stores are ineligible, bars aren’t. A vape shop is the same as a liquor store.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭

    You're 100% Correct Liquor Stores are specifically on the ineligible list, and since the list of adult business is supposed to be examples, I also totally see the logic how you draw a comparison to Vape Shop. BUT, my problem is logic exists connecting Liquor stores to Bars/Clubs too. And those aren't ineligible.

    Further muddying the issue for me, is there are other places Niantic draws differences that don't fit my logic... So I've given up in trying to simply apply 1 logic comparison to things.

    If they want to ban Vape Shops, they can easily do that by replying in this forum and/or simply adding them to the list on website. But barring that, I won't logic ban them by drawing the comparison you will.

    Now, that doesn't mean they are eligible, as they don't fit the criteria, but what it does mean is if they have something inside that is eligible, I won't auto reject or tell people they should removal request.

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm having trouble seeing the train of thought here. At least from the U.S. perspective: a vape shop and a liquor store both sell age-restricted products, and the vape shop is probably completely dedicated to the sale of those and related products (unlike a liquor store, which often sells many other products). The liquor store is classed as an "adult-oriented location," but you're saying the vape shop might not be classed as an "adult-oriented location," even though it is just as "adult-oriented," if not more, than the liquor store?

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm saying your logic is awesome, agree with it totally.... BUT... It doesn't apply to Casinos, Bars, and Nightclubs and sell products/services to adults. Why not? Without any frame of reference to figure out why a Vape shop should be banned but a Casino shouldnt.. I won't guess why Vape shop but not a Casino.

    Mind you, I'm a rule follower and if Niantic adds vape shop or smoke shop to ban list, I won't disagree and complain a peep. I just wont guess why this and not that when they clearly have the power to specify.

  • Melurra-PGOMelurra-PGO Posts: 234 ✭✭✭✭

    Here is a theory...and since Niantic hasn't confirmed any of the reasons behind the rejection reasons, it's just speculation. As far as I know, hookah lounges aren't expressly forbidden (but correct me if I'm wrong). To me, a hookah lounge is analogous to a bar, as they are both places to gather and socialize. A vape/smoke shop is analogous to a liquor store because they are both places to just make a transaction, ie, purchase an adult product: no socialization, exploration, or exercising. In that way, I can see why a bar is eligible but a liquor store isn't.

    The original question, a mural inside a vape shop, definitely seems like a gray area... I would want to see more context.

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A liquor store is a retail business that sells exclusively products that are unsuitable for minors.

    A vape/tobacco shop is a retail business that sells exclusively products that are unsuitable for minors.

    A bar/pub is a hospitality business that specializes in products that are unsuitable for minors, but also commonly offers products or services that are acceptable for all ages.

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27

    I was reluctant to bring up hookah lounges and cigar bars since they're kind of getting off topic. But I (again from my U.S.-centric perspective) would personally consider them to be adult-oriented for two reasons:

    1. They are likely to have age restrictions in place for their full hours of operation, unlike most bars.

    2. The secondhand smoke from hookahs or cigars is detrimental to the health of everyone present, but especially so to minors.

  • Janetx68-PGOJanetx68-PGO Posts: 16 ✭✭

    If you have to prove you're over 18 to enter a place, it's as adult-oriented as you can get. Anything inside it should be ineligible, even if it's visible from the outside.

    Many if not most casinos have restaurants and other uses such as gift shops, art exhibits, hotels, shows, etc. that are open to all ages, so are not entirely adult-oriented.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27

    All awesome responses and musings, but none solve my issue. It's just player's musings, on a topic that Niantic could easily clarify.

    Let me give an example: K-12 is banned. Why is K-12 Banned? The common logic the community uses we don't want adults hanging around a bunch of kids.... Okay... But why are Playstructures in Parks/Apartment Complexes good POIs? Aren't a bunch of adults hanging around a bunch of kids? What draws a distinction between Playstructures OK, Schools NOT Ok?

    I can muse on distinctions between the 2. I could use @Melurra-PGO logic that play structure encourages exercise a criteria part like bar/nightclub/casino uses gather part.

    I could quip at the words chosen by @X0bai-PGO like "Exclusively" and "Usually" and ask what if its not-exclusively? every liquor store I've ever been in sells munchies for example yet its still explicitly banned. Or what about if Bar unusually never offers all age-content,

    I could ask @Janetx68-PGO just because kids under 18 can't ever get in, why is that ineligible when we have other private business/communities/pay entrance where some player's can't ever get it in either. The Niantic rule is if some people can access its open to public even if all people can't access. I'm going to a water resort next week on vacation, it advertises a whole section that is adult only.... I'm betting I will find POIs in there.

    I'm just unwilling to expand the Banned list from what's explicitly listed, because Niantic can easily do so on its own anytime. And I don't trust the my/community logic to perfectly align with Niantic logic.

  • Janetx68-PGOJanetx68-PGO Posts: 16 ✭✭

    I realize this doesn't answer all of your very legitimate questions, but your example of a water resort with an adults-only section is a great one; I would actually say that should be excluded for POIs. But realistically, a reviewer isn't going to be able to make that distinction.

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My fault for emphasizing the wrong words, but the takeaway should be retail vs hospitality.

    Retail businesses are almost never eligible to begin with, with the explicit exception of game/hobby stores; a retail business that sells adult products lands far afoul of the guidelines. Hospitality businesses (restaurants, hotels, clubs) are usually not eligible on their own, but can be if the nomination demonstrates a business’s special significance in some way; a hospitality business that specializes in adult products (bar) can still make it in.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭

    @X0bai-PGO

    The issue is Niantic just uses poor wording. When it comes to Niantic... Not Ineligible DOESNT equal Eligible.

    Most business whether retail or hospitality aren't eligible because they don't meet the 3 criteria of Exercise/Explore/Gather. Some hospitality business's might reach Gather or Explore level. Some business's like Gyms/Dojos/Dance can go for exercise because they promote onsite exericse.

    But that's not really the distinction in this thread. Often many business that wouldn't be eligible themselves might have something inside/on property that is eligible. A fountain, Artwork, etc that is explore worthy.

    The catch is.. Niantic has a Ban List. If something is on the Ban List, even something normally eligible is banned. Because the ban list trumps normal eligiblity rules, I don't interpret the ban list I go with it explicitly.

    Normal eligibility is something Niantic encourages judgement on, the ban list... no. Its banned. So I am loathe with adding Vape Shop Ban list based on reviewer judgement. I get the logic to add it, but a lot of times my logic doesn't match Niantics. So if Niantic wants to add it, they can in 2 seconds flat, edit the line on webpage. Done. I don't encourage player judgement on the ban list... Ban list is the Ban list.

  • Melurra-PGOMelurra-PGO Posts: 234 ✭✭✭✭

    Looks like Niantic doesn't want to remove existing liquor store wayspots. You would likely get the same response for the wayspot inside the vape store.


  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The initial reports are always rejected. (Well, I've heard rumors of acceptance, so maybe 99% rejected.) You have to appeal the rejection to the Wayfarer help chat or on this board in the "removal appeals" section.

  • Melurra-PGOMelurra-PGO Posts: 234 ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly, I don't feel like I have to. I just had another removal report that was accepted. There isn't a corresponding removal rejection reason, so for the liquor store, I chose "permanently removed". (Maybe implying "I think you [Niantic] might like this to be permanently removed.") It's possible that the Niantic staff remember just checked to see if it was there or not and didn't notice the "liquor store" words in the title or prominently featured in the photo, but I believe they noticed and still decided to retain the wayspot, in essence handing down their verdict. Basically, I alerted them to it and they choose their action. I don't see why I should have to do more work.

  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You don't *have* to do more work. You didn't *have* to submit the deletion report in the first place. Just telling you how to proceed if you want to get it removed.

  • JillJilyJabadoo-PGOJillJilyJabadoo-PGO Posts: 838 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Other Rejection Criteria is the important rejection reason. It means reviewers don't think it's "a great place to explore, exercise, or socialize". You gave to convince them it is in the supporting info, if you can.

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