Memorial / grave from 1785

Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

Graves are difficult candidates since ever and only exceptional stuff for accepting.

I'm fully aware of the rules for that kind of candidates:

nowadays criteria:

Ineligible location, place, or object

[...]

Sensitive locations like gravestones (not associated with a significant/historical figure) and cemeteries

In older criteria-version and even back to OPR there was the additional exception-criterion, that graves should have a minimum age (guess it was 25yrs).

Also Niantic is very fast in removing wayspots from graveyards, when they are reported. But removal criteria and reviewing criteria are two very different animals.

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The candidate:

I'm not even sure, if this thing is a grave. The inscriptions are very different from usual graves. It's made like a memorial, but nethertheless the woman is buried at this graveyard. And since this thing is located at a graveyard it's okay to treat it like a gravestone, and neglect nitpicking whether it's a grave or not.


What we know about her:

  • born 1727 at Bremen (Northern Germany), died 1785 at Karlsbad (Bohemia, nowadays Karlovy Vary, Czechia)
  • she is member of the high aristocracy family von Rochow. That house was very important during the late medieval ages, since they were the Margraves of Brandenburg. Brandenburg (the region surrounding Berlin) is nowadays one of the federal states of Germany. At some point in time Brandenburg was swallowed during the rise of Prussia, so this house was nethertheless of high nobility and family members participated in the reformation of the education system of Prussia (one of the aspects, that made Prussia successful).
  • she was a rich widow of a banker, so she married Friedrich Ludwig von Rochow in a 2nd matrimony. Her 2nd husband was 18 years younger ....
  • she died during a spa trip with her husband and daughter to Karlsbad, Bohemia. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (most famous German poet) was also at Karlsbad, and participated at her funeral
  • she is burried at Johanngeorgenstadt, because it is the closest Protestant parish next to Karlsbad (Bohemia was officially Catholic because their king hat to be Catholic, although a lot of the citizens were Hussites). So Johanngeorgenstadt is 50km away from Karlsbad, more than 300km away from the home region of the von Rochows, and 600km away from Bremen. The family has no link other link to this small town.
  • Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (most famous German poet) was also at Karlsbad, and participated at her funeral. Goethe was also known for being a lecher, and screwed nearly anything with a heartbeat.
  • Her daughter was inspiration for a novel character for E.T.A. Hoffmann (another famous poet)

So lots of these facts are very strange, and you can draw lots of conclusions ..... marriage, that looks like trading money for high nobility... and because of that not being buried at home ..... affairs between Goethe and her or her daughter .....

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The location is at the entrance area of a graveyard.

red area is an inactive part of the graveyard with big cryptas and tombs, latest ones from the 1920s.

red cross is the memorial. At its location the active part of the graveyard starts. So you can see the graves in the background.

So for resubmissions I could trick the reviewers by taking a picture from the back of the monument, but I dont want to do it that way.

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So the question is:

Am I right, that this thing fulfills the exceptional rule of the ineligibility criterion?


Comments

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 327 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would try again and consolidate some of those facts into the description and supplemental information. In my opinion, you didn't provide enough details and expected the reviewers to do the research - they won't.

    I got a famous person's grave approved not too long ago. Here's what I wrote in the supplemental

    "Promotes exploration of the city's history through past residents. This man is so significant to state history that he has a wikipedia page. Niantic guidelines state that burial sites of historically significant people are eligible. [listed the man's wikipedia page]"

    I actually put a lot of the details of who he was and what he accomplished in life in the description. The person's grave who I submitted was the first president of the first women's college in our state (actually the first one to exclusively offer a full four year education to women in the whole world).

    But a lot of this is going to depend on how your locals think about playing in cemeteries. I submitted mine in a small town with almost no POI. The place is drying up and all it has is history.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My idea was to use short texts and hope, that Goethe might be the eye-catcher for the reviewers, especially the shallow reviewers. Another problem I have to deal with is, that this candidate is right next to the German-Czech border. So for the Czech fellows I hoped also, that Goethe might make it easier for them, since he should be known there, too. A wall of text about German aristocrats and evaluating the importance of this house might be more difficultfor them then the simple name drop of Goethe. And 2nd idea behind this was to lead the well-educated reviewers to the conclusion about the Goethe affair without writing it down. So maybe they

    Writing down such guesses, although they are nearly ensured, is not usual, if it's not proven by historical documents. Very good example is Charles VIII of France: "While on his way to watch a game of jeu de paume in Amboise he struck his head on the intel of a door. At around 2:00 p.m., while returning from the game, he fell into a sudden coma and died nine hours later." ..... but it's scientific consensus, that he had syphilis, that mainly caused his **** and also the deaths of his children. But it's not 100% sure jy documents, so the english wiki article doesnt even mention the word syphilis. The German one does it only in a small afterthought in the section about his descendants.


    But for another try I'll use some of your phrases for the supporting statement. I tried to avoid the cemetery stuff by calling it memorial stone. Next try will be the smartypants attempt with the quoted rules. That's the way how I usually do that with every candidate, that needs a bit rule knowledge. We saw also often rejections in such cases, that looked like responses of defiance. That problem occured since PGO is allowed to review. Back in OPR times, when the supporting statement was released, this was a 99.9% successful strategy....

    I'll try it with English description text with the objective facts, and I'll use your general phrases about burial stuff, and then add the guesses about the Goethe-affair in the supporting statement. Maybe it works that way ....

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Her life may have been odd, but not historically significant. I see no reason for this to get nominated in the first place, much less resubmitted after being correctly rejected with an accurate reason.

  • The26thDoctor-PGOThe26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you could somehow get in Goethe screwing anything with a heartbeat that would be an auto 5* for me.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looking at the rules, how they are written down, this is a legit point of view.

    It's not a simple ordinary grave, for that would be enough, if the person is/was significant. Extreme example:

    The grave of J.R.R. Tolkien: significant person, but totally ordinary burial site. Only little special aspect is the Beren-Luthien-reference to the Silmarillion. Nethertheless a shame, that it's still not a wayspot.

    Looking at my example there are additional perks:

    • 'it's also an artistic valuable memorial, that is protected cultural heritage (listed in the towns list of cultural heritage)
    • in terms of old criteria the backstory of this memorial is very intresting
    • even the local people don't know the backstory of this memorial (know it from 1st hand, because my grandma was born in that town). Imho this also reinforces the impact of this candidate in front of the exploration criterion.

    So looking at the older and still some actual criteria often the "interesting story" behind a candidate is/was the exception for candidates, that are usually ineligible, for example natural features. Looking at burial sites from that point of view, then having a significant person is somehow the interesting backstory for the grave site. Why not looking a bit beyond the mindcuffs? Here we have a borderline case of significance of the buried person, but the "interesting backstory" argument and the art/memorial argument nethertheless raise it for me for being eligible.

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