Niantic Reviewers are Filling my Town with Coal and Encouraging People to Do the Same
ScrawnyMeowth1-PGO
Posts: 191 ✭✭✭✭
I'm going to be up front and say that this is basically just a rant. But I think this is a common frustration for people in the community, and something Niantic should consider.
I've seen a recent influx of crappy nominations (coal) being accepted and going live in my area. For example, see this gem:
https://link.ingress.com/?link=https%3a%2f%2fintel.ingress.com%2fportal%2fa947c7a454c03f89add40c2a4cc93f65.16&apn=com.nianticproject.ingress&isi=576505181&ibi=com.google.ingress&ifl=https%3a%2f%2fapps.apple.com%2fapp%2fingress%2fid576505181&ofl=https%3a%2f%2fintel.ingress.com%2fintel%3fpll%3d46.270927%2c-119.284639
Title: Dutch Bro's Coffee Shop
Description: Convenient coffee shop just built this year near schools and many other businesses including near a sports complex. This would be a fun place for a poke stop.
Not only is it a super-generic coffee chain akin to Starbucks, the description contains chronological references that will be inaccurate in the near future, and even a Pokemon Go reference at the end. This is just one example of recently approved coal in my area.
How was this approved? I'm guessing it was a Niantic decision, because a) I firmly believe that my local reviewers aren't dumb enough to accept stuff like this, and b) I review non-stop, and this never came past me, nor have any local reviewers seen it.
This is really frustrating for me, for three main reasons:
1- By approving nominations like this, it sends the message to players that generic chain businesses with awful text are eligible and should be nominated. This results in more coal being nominated, clogging up review queues and frustrating reviewers.
2- Clearly Niantic reviewers aren't being held to the same standards as unpaid reviewers. If I had approved something like this, I easily could have received a cooldown, a drop in my rating, or worse. There's no similar accountability for Niantic reviewers.
3- It's annoying when Wayfarers like me have perfectly good nominations denied, and yet stuff like this gets approved, simply because it was reviewed by "Niantic."
Feel free to share your thoughts.
Comments
Coffee Shops / Cafés / Bakery's with Indoor Seating are great waypoints. What's the rejection criteria that they meet in your eyes? Please, respect the direction that Niantic has told the community about this kind of wayspot and don't reject just because you don't agree with them OR you not liking them. Being a Gatekeeper trying to keep your Ingress table pure, is going to hinder everyone else. Read up on current reviewed criteria and accepted eligible waypoints.
Did you read the description?
It has the word pokestop in it, which isn't allowed. Sometimes things like this passthrough, just make an edit to remove the word or report it.
It's not old news. Similarly, someone with a really wonderful and beautiful mural had theirs rejected by a Niantic review.
But once they are live, it is very hard to get rid of them. Just edit out the description. Don't take the clothes off your back for a company that is always at a beach.
Terrible reply in every way. This chain business with inappropriate text meets criteria in no way whatsoever.
I think it’s a stretch to point the finger directly at Niantic, but whoever did approve this, or approve of this in forum comments, should be firmly redirected toward learning the criteria.
It may not be the best candidate, but it’s not coal. Coal is a lamp post or a stop sign. There may be people who see chain coffee shops as great places to gather and socialize same as any other coffee shop. You may not agree. That’s ok. Every vote counts.
Did you start with announcing the kind of reply you were making? 😉
The fact that something is a chain or even a business is irrelevant when rating a nomination. And it appears game related text is no longer a rejection reason. Can't find it under rejection criteria or content guidelines anymore. And a case for meeting the social eligibility criteria can certainly be made.
Is this a great nomination? Probably not. Is it worth considering? Yes. Should you be more open to suggestions of others? Yes.
I would share examples which were recently approved in Germany, but I have no proof Niantic actually accepted them. But there is talk that Niantic accepts the most garbage nominations, like illegal street graffiti which are just some lines of spray. I just can't believe that someone accepted that.
I really think Niantic review is inconsistent at times, mostly due to the fact that there are multiple Nia reviewers who review very differently.
Hello @ScrawnyMeowth1-PGO
We all need to rant sometimes.
Putting aside the example given, which seems to be taking the discussion down a rabbit hole, what evidence do you have for the assertion that this example plus the others was agreed by Niantic staff?
From what you have posted it is no more than a hunch.
Of course Niantic staff make mistakes, and some of those are whoppers, but they are human, and they are limited by the training, tools and time available to do the work.
If the suspected source are submissions via the app that was available for a short window, then I wouldn’t be surprised as it wasn’t what was meant to happen, the approvers were not prepared for the flood.
The fundamental point is you have an uptick in poor quality POI a mix of the actual places, the quality of descriptions and maybe photos.
Yep that is frustrating, it is hard to properly identify the root cause and without that make sensible suggestions to improve.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
The chain nature of a business is relevant. The text is clearly unacceptable. This is absolute coal. This should be considered for under half a second and rejected.
Maybe you are unfamiliar with Dutch Bros Coffee. I am very familiar, because I used to live in the area where they began. They are to Starbucks what In-N-Out is to McDonald’s. They absolutely could pay for a sponsorship if they chose. They are not an eligible subject.
Why should a player care about Niantic's sponsorships deals? If Niantic wants money from the business, they need to go after them. I would bet they can't bc they probably have a non-compete amongst sponsorships so there's only one of each type allowed and Starbucks has that on lock with coffee places. It is none of my concern whether or not Niantic is success at squeezing out money from business partners. What I care about is whether or not this is a place the community likes and uses as a gathering spot.
Plus Niantic has said that chain coffee places, even, Starbucks, can be accepted as POI through Wayfarer under the right circumstances. NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE when it comes to places being eligible or not.
Where does it say the chain nature of a business is relevant? The text "A generic business, chain, or franchise that is not locally unique" is the only place that talks about chain locations. And that text is being removed from places, probably because it confuses people. It is no longer found here: https://niantic.helpshift.com/hc/en/21-wayfarer/faq/2774-rejection-criteria/ That it remains on the review website is probably an oversight, and even then. Generic for Niantic basically means doesn't meet eligibility criteria. So basically that line is irrelevant.
A discussion about the removal of that line is found here: https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/33576/generic-business-criteria-is-no-more/p1
Here is a clarification from NianticCasey on chain locations: https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/comment/45941#Comment_45941
And here is a clarification about how to review businesses that could apply for sponsorship deals. (Spoiler: It is irrelevant): https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/comment/79068#Comment_79068
And I already pointed out in my previous response that nothing in that description meets rejection criteria. The mentioning of game specific terminology is no longer listed as a rejection reason.
You and others may not like that, but that is what the criteria are. You can always point to criteria, AMA's or clarifications that agree with you, but just stating that I am wrong isn't going to make me wrong.
It's hilarious to me that a reply with this many clear citations gets "disliked" so much. No rebuttal of the arguments, no focus on Niantic criteria, just a lazy click of the dislike button.
These obsessive part-time gatekeepers that just don'tike Niantic guidelines and feel personally offended about a Dutch Bros becoming a waypoint seriously need something more important to care about and give their time to.
@Dadcatchesemall-PGO I can only assume your irony is intentional. Well played.
I take advantage of this thread. I am not talking about this specific nomination anymore, but my area is full of proposals and waypots for tiles in private homes, signature graffiti, murals on school walls, sculptures in roundabouts... I have always had my qualification in "great" and for nominations of this type that people do not stop accepting, it has lowered me drastically.
What's the downside to having these stops in game?
Love a rant. Been there done that.
I am not sure it is a Niantic approval. I get asked to review stuff that is 3,290K away. I know more about areas of Perth than I ever thought I would. Definitely not in my local hood.
So I would not accuse Niantic for this.
I think I would fail it for its description.
Remember everyone. With scale comes quality control issues. Ask most organisations. If you don't have quality controls then you get what you get. Can they improve it? Sure but that would mean better inducation processes and regular retraining (very simple how to work flows with tests - easy to build - quick to do but takes effort). And greater authority versus the ambiguity in clarification statements by Niantic. Etc etc
A lot of "disagrees" but no comments. I'm genuinely curious about this.
Let's take the Dutch Bro's Coffee Shop as an example. Even if it's a generic chain, what's the downside to having that location in game?
If the only issue is the word "PokeStop," why deny the entire stop vs. simply changing the text?
companies see that generic business is accepted as stop by submission. sends out directive to local managers to spend 30 seconds submitting stop instead of purchasing sponsorship. price of in game items goes up.
Do you mean that they saw an increase to the number of people that enter into any of those sponsored locations and buy items?
I doubt a company is nominating their location for a stop. I’ve done a lot a reviews. I’ve never seen this. Ok maybe once or twice I’ve seen a nomination for a pet spa or something but really it’s not that pervasive.
What they are saying is that if we don't reject business locations, businesses will notice and will choose to nominate themselves instead of paying for sponsorships. This will result in a loss of profit for Niantic, and they will compensate by increasing the price of raid passes.
As posted earlier in this thread, Niantic themselves don't seem to share this concern, as they have stated before that we don't have to take potential sponsorships into account.
I guess you will mostly get negative comments, because in here people often don't seem to take into account what more stops mean for people actually playing the games (which seemed to go as far as to reject stops simply because of using game specific terminology).
Exactly. There are too many people around here that only want "high quality wayspots", and they are trying to apply a set of rules much stricter that the ones provided by Niantic and we all can see that when there are not enough wayspots Niantic will perform any import from an external database to include "moar pokestops". And that makes their blood boil.
My problem with chain stores, chain coffee places, etc. is not that they're not eligible: some such places can indeed be eligible. But in many cases, the submitter fails to convince me that it's a "great" place to socialize or whatever, more fun than talking to a friend on a random bench in a bus stop or on a square of sidewalk. Chain coffee places and restaurants usually go like this: one goes through in a small suburb because it's a low-density area and the submitter made a convincing argument for inclusion. Then people visit from the city and see that chain that's identical to the one next to their apartment, so they submit that city one too because "Niantic says they are eligible". Suddenly, the other 20 chain storefronts in that high-density city are submitted and ruled acceptable because there's precedent. Then the suburban and rural people are (perhaps justly) upset because now the city has 21 new wayspots where the truly sparse suburb only gets one. It's all Disc Golf Holes to me, an endless downward spiral. When one gets in, they all get in.
And I do think that excessive, uninteresting wayspots degrade both the map and the in-game experience. In Pokemon Go, the stated purpose of the game is to get people out moving and exploring and catching imaginary virtual monsters. I have a decent walk needed to get to my closest Pokestop, and for a truly dense area I need to travel further - but that makes for some great exercise opportunities, and great social opportunities when players similar to me gather at those denser areas for events.
Are you suggesting we should reject good nominations because otherwise similar but bad nominations will get accepted as well?
Hey @ScrawnyMeowth1-PGO, this could be the same situation as in this case. Someone is just using an exploit to get ineligible things accepted or submits them in the wrong location. Niantic seem to be accepting a lot of this stuff. Later they move it with Help Chat, so the Pokestops and Gyms are not demoted and clusters are created!
this issue of post disappearing on here is annoying as can be...
You seem to forget that in order to catch those imaginary mons you need items from stops (or buying them at hilarious prices in the shop) - without a sufficient number of stops around you will be sitting dry in no time.
You also seem to forget that you need gyms to get most worthwhile Mons, more often than not hidden behind raids and other paywalls.
On top of that, you can do your fitness walks and enjoy your community with sufficient stops and gyms around as well.
On the other hand, without sufficient stops and gyms around, every gameplay but the most basic one is pretty impossible (unless spending tons of real money on balld and remote raids), you will not be able to get many rare or interesting Mons, you will not be able to play PVP succesfully.
And all of that leads to a community completely missing, which is the norm around here now.
Nope! But then again both submitters and reviewers should be continuously reminded that just because a thing shows up on the map, that doesn't mean that all such similar things are eligible. Even Disc Golf Holes can be eligible if they're a single tee or hole that serves as an anchor for the course.