Feedback on a rejected submission please.
Andyzard88-PGO Posts: 12 ✭✭
Hi guys - could I ask for some feedback on this nomination please?
I have tried to find additional rejection reasons but only those two ever seem to show up.
I would be keen to get some opinions on what I can improve in the nomination, or whether people think it ever has any chance of being accepted.
Personally I don’t see this being a problem I think it’s a good nomination worth accepting. Maybe show where you stood to take the photo to show the pavement? And maybe make the description a bit longer.
hope this helped!!
Generic street sign, every town has one of these welcome signs, doesn't make for a high quality wayspot and doesn't meet criteria.
Municipal welcome signs do not meet criteria. They are not good places to explore or socialize or exercise.
The revised proposal for sidewalks is the same.
"Other rejection criteria" may indicate that the reviewer has determined that the welcome sign is also in other parts of town.
It might be better to specify that Lowton's welcome sign only exists at this location.
Hello and welcome @Andyzard88-PGO
As I live in Stockport I could potentially have reviewed this, but didn’t.
The algorithm that is meant to help give rejection reasons is poor. The main one is probably other criteria as it clearly has pedestrian access.
The other criteria reason means that the majority of votes not to accept thought it didn’t meet one of the key criteria of a great place to explore, exercise or socialise.
Going here would not be to socialise.
It then comes down to different opinions. There may be case that walking to this encourages exercise - a bit tenuous.
So is it interesting in itself to look at?
A normal village road sign wouldn’t be so it all hinges on the artwork. Personally I think yes it does (I would have a careful look at it) but I know others will say no it doesn’t. So this means you are really going to have to sell this.
So if you want to try again I would suggest the following:
photo it never harms to have a really good photo. Yours is ok but there are other road signs in background which just emphasise “road sign”
here is roughly what it could look like
There are no distractions. If you can get the art work to be nice and crisp so it can be read and more to the middle that’s what people will see.
This needs to focus on the artwork and what it depicts - use artwork rather than sign.
Stop and have a look at this artwork showing the farming heritage of the village.It features 3 notable buildings St Lukes parish church, Byron Hall (linked to the poet John Byron) and whatever the 3rd one is. And if there is anything else in the words on the sign that are interesting include them.
I’m sure you can find ways of phrasing this but the idea is to engage the reader and make it an interesting place to go.
You have a lot of good info. Again avoid using sign it reinforces ordinary, Artwork is distinct.
If there is a link to an article about it include it
so something like ….Local schools designed and created the detailed artwork to welcome people into the village.
Hopefully this will give you ideas to help change non acceptances to approval.
edited to change st Mary’s to St Luke’s
and I can see we are disagreeing 😂😂😂🤪
Hello! I know many Ingress players automatically reject all welcome signs, maybe because of something said in an Ingress AMA at some point in the past, but personally I decide on a case-by-case basis depending on the quality of the individual sign.
I think what makes this sign stand out compared to other welcome signs is the specially designed artwork at the bottom. I can see that it features drawings of what I assume are important buildings in the town, and to me that makes it both interesting and locally significant. I think it would be helpful to make that the primary focus of your nomination. Take your primary photo as close-up as possible - think almost nothing but the sign in the visible field - so that the artwork jumps out at reviewers. Find specific information about who created the artwork. If it has a specific title, list that in your description, along with the artist or artists' names, and the names of the buildings shown in the artwork. If there are any official sources like newspaper articles about the artwork, I'd include a link to one or two of them in your supporting information.
I don't think this would be an easy approval, but I think with the right presentation and the right set of voters, you have a chance.
Just to clarify
I actually think it’s reasonable and not unexpected to have different opinions about this case. There is scope for differences of interpretation.
I don’t see a need to hit the disagree button - I haven’t, and yet I clearly feel differently about this as a possible wayspot.
Thank you to everyone for your replies - every single one of them has been useful and helpful to gain different perspectives and insight into how someone might review the submission. I’m short on time at the moment but I’ll reply in more detail tomorrow to you all.
I personally like this.
@Elijustrying-ING and @Purptacular-PGO gave great advice.
Good luck :)
Oh, forgot to mention. Beef up your description. Go for atleast a B+ quality.
This is fine. Personally im fed up of the lot that continually reject perfectly good potential waypoints, get with the times! As long as there isnt a duplicate nearby that is already a wayspot, going by current up to date criteria views from Niantic this is a good candidate for a waypoint. You could even add in some Historical or current information about the Town and the area nearby on THIS side of the town. Here's an example that i got accepted a while ago. The Twinning and part of british heritage is a bonus. Good luck.
Remember, key to any nomination is an argument/explanation for why the POI is a “great place” to explore, exercise or socialize. Welcome signs will be a difficult sell for many reviewers.
Thank you for all your comments. I’ve taken them all on board and have the following on hold. Does this stand out as having more chance of being accepted?
Am I best tagging this as art rather than a welcome sign just to completely disassociate from that genre?
I'm not sure about the description. It doesn't bother me but I believe it puts some reviewers off?
Maybe more like
Unique artwork depicting Byrom Hall, St Luke's Church, The Stocks and Fair House Farm. Designed by local school children after funding by the We Love Our Town project in 2021.
Most reviewers have made up their mind by the support, it can sway them a bit or bolster the opinion they already have so you can elaborate there I think.
Thanks - not surprised at a “less is more” perspective regarding the description, I’m personally of the same opinion usually. However I do want to mention Golborne in there as a reason. The first time this got rejected one of the reasons was mismatched location and I believe it’s because it states (incorrectly) that it is in Golborne. Take on board reducing it down however, I’ll give it a trim.
See what others think.
That's just personally what I'd do but is probably not the correct way :D
The story behind it certainly does help make a case, but I think you can edit these text fields down and retain the relevant information.
Funded in 2021 by the “We Love Our Town” project, this municipal sign depicts four historical Lowton buildings: Byrom Hall (family home of the Byroms, including poet John Byrom), St Luke’s Church, The Stocks, and Fair House Farm. It stands at the entrance of town to display civic pride and the historical significance of the village.
…something like that. That’s about as much as a POI should hold. Then the supporting needs a similar treatment for the sake of the reviewer.
I was about to say that based on the supporting photo explaining pedestrian access seemed unnecessary. I looked at street view to confirm that and realized that technically this does not meet Niantic's requirements for safe pedestrian access-- Niantic's rule is that there has to be a safe pedestrian walkway for you to walk up and touch the sign. The sidewalk is close enough that it ALMOST counts but unless something has changed and the sidewalk has been extended the pedestrian path stops short of the sign.
Interesting perspectives, and as usual, all over the board. I think a welcome sign like the OP's that is more than a generic street sign can definitely be an invitation to explore--it's specifically saying "you are encouraged to come here!" Maybe almost every town has one, but they tend to be very different in style and appearance, often related to the location and that makes them worth notice (exploring). The sign in question has specific drawings of town features--the opposite of generic.
I like @X0bai-PGO edited but informative version.
@Hosette-ING point about safe pedestrian access is worth considering.
I don’t think that to classify as safe pedestrian access it is essential to be paved or tarmaced, there are plenty areas where the expectation is that the safe pedestrian area is on grass. I doubt anyone in the U.K. would bat an eye at someone walking across it between two paved areas - personally I would feel safer doing that than the paved route from the East Lancs Road going east which would require crossing at the junction with a pedestrian island, walk a short distance then cross that road back again. The area is wide and well kept grass.
The grass area doesn’t look like it’s in regular use as a path.
So it could get rejected at the start.
I think I wouldn’t reject outright on location because on balance I am trying to view positively and there is a lot more about this poi, but I would score lower further on when we assess safety as there is a question mark.
I do think this is an area that needs sorting out. There shouldn’t be 2 different places where safe pedestrian access is assessed.
I think what was intended was that the first was about can you get there on foot. And the second is about is it safe given the overall context. But the wording has become unhelpful. And I do think this is where globally there are huge differences.
Its a whole new can of worms to open up 😂
Hi guys, thank you again for the additional feedback. The pavement not quite reaching the sign is almost definitely a contributing factor to 'pedestrian access' being a rejection reason, however as @Elijustrying-ING states, this is quite commonplace, particularly in the UK. Just because the pavement ends short of the sign, doesn't make it unsafe. I appreciate this may be the case in some countries - that is, don't go in the grass as there could be anything in there - but thankfully that's not a problem in the UK.
By the way @Elijustrying-ING - thank you very much for your detailed initial feedback :)
As for "technically this does not meet Niantic's requirements for safe pedestrian access" which @Hosette-ING points out (and I don't doubt that you're correct here, by the way!), it's a rather nonsensical notion to stick by as a hard and fast rule. If this were to be strictly enforced, then there are thousands of POIs which would no longer be eligible. Similar logic with more high profile POIs where it's impossible to actually get close for security reasons for example - so they would no longer qualify under pedestrian access also. I appreciate what you're getting it and understand you're only pointing out what others will think (which has been the case so far it seems), but it's just frustrating that there's a lack of common sense among a large number of reviewers I suppose.
There is absolutely safe access to the POI in my opinion, but I can absolutely appreciate why some reviewers may have another opinion, and which is why I tried to hammer home that point, but I'll revise so it's less confusing - again, appreciate the feedback.
This POI in my opinion is a good, genuine nomination with local, cultural significance and enough about it to make it stand out. Unfortunately it does seem like I'm going to have to make a cast iron, bulletproof argument to get it in, as a significant enough proportion of reviewers will find a somewhat needless technical fault, without applying some common sense.
@Andyzard88-PGO You are correct that a paved path is not required. I would approach this one from the perspective of, "Is that patch of grass intended to be walked on?" Given that it is no longer flat by the time it gets to the sign I think a case can be made that it's not. Admittedly, this is a super marginal case that relies on judgement. I could argue a case for either side of this one having safe pedestrian access.
For the high-profile POIs you mention, is it possible for any person to safely get to it? For example, if it's fenced off for security purposes then presumably some person has access to it for maintenance. The rule isn't that everyone must have safe pedestrian access, simply that someone does sometimes.
With every reviewer thinking differently and there being no clear yes or no on Welcome signs don't be surprised if it gets accepted or not. I just had a new nomination of a nice welcome sign (in an area with 0 way points but a bunch of players mind you) with stonework get rejected as a private residence when it is not only clearly stated on the sign as a Community Complex but also shows from Google image with public walk ways. I live here and everyone walks and enjoys the walk ways in our community it's not gated or unwelcoming
@TerraAnneBacon-PGO When you say community complex do you mean an apartment/condo complex or a residential neighborhood? The signs for those are not eligible unless they clear the bar for artistic or historic merit.
A residential complex. Multi story homes, but a whole bunch of buildings with grassy park spaces, walking trails, and well kept sidewalks with their own community. The public can come in the roads any time with no gates to look around and see if they wanna live there too. Friends from outside come over. (Neighborhood) as a lot of these residents know each other and watch their kids playing in the complex. I'm not sure how you're differentiating the terms.
If that's the case I would take everything back however it's literally not stated anywhere that Community Complexes are not eligible unless they have history or art. Usually I see them passed with simply the good place to gather or exercise rule. Literally all the time I see other complexes that have wayspots for no good reason other than a welcome sign. Which is why I'm annoyed cause if that's the case then no waypoints at all should be in community complexes INCLUDING those at complex sports courts, complex community recreational rooms, and complex pools. If you can't have one at the sign then there's no case at the pools and places meant for complex residents. Now public pathways like sidewalks I can agree on, free exercise through a complex not bothering residents in their workout gym...
If I come off annoyed it's cause I am having the same argument elsewhere in the forums. I do not intend to be annoyed at you guys specifically though you guys are great it's just the fact that this stuff is not black and white to my eyes like it should be.
@TerraAnneBacon-PGO You are absolutely, 100% correct that none of this is black and white and it relies on human judgement in most cases. (Some things are unambiguous-- is it on K-12 property or a private single-family home? If so, that's an automatic disqualification. These things still sometimes pass, though.) Niantic doesn't make it easy for people to understand the criteria and all of the nuances, and it is absolutely frustrating.
The three main criteria for acceptance are to be a great place to exercise, a great place to be social or a great place to explore. Note that the word great matters-- one can exercise, socialize, or explore just about anywhere but that doesn't mean that everywhere is eligible.
Nobody goes to hang out at a neighborhood entrance sign, and there's nothing special about it that makes it a great place to exercise. Nobody seeks out a neighborhood entrance sign because the sign itself is cool/interesting though there are rare exceptions. (Here's one exception-- the signs have artist merit.) Lots of stuff get accepted that shouldn't, but we should base our submissions on Niantic's criteria rather than what we see in the games already.
Sports courts, recreation rooms, etc. are accepted as great places to exercise and/or be social. People go to sports courts specifically to play sports and they go to rec centers specifically to hang out. Niantic has explicitly stated that residential pools, including those at hotels and apartment complexes, don't qualify. This was buried in an AMA somewhere, though, and most people aren't aware of the distinction.
Here's a Niantic rep's comments that entrance signs generally do not qualify.
As someone who argued for welcome signs being eligible in some cases, I do not think the type of subdivision identification monument sign @TerraAnneBacon-PGO posted in another thread is a "welcome" sign or qualifies as a POI unless it has some interesting art or architectural feature associated with it. Not only are they typically monotonous in appearance, they're as likely as not be associated with private gated communities. Not that private gated communities can't have POIs, just that those signs aren't really an indication of a welcome or a good place to explore.
I will weigh in here and say that a City/Town/Village Welcome Sign feels eligible to me (assuming there is pedestrian access) because it helps you explore the city and know the boundaries. I live in an area (not terribly far from TerreAnneBacon) where 3 - 5 cities all meet - seeing the Welcome signs helps me understand the area. It helps us all use a common "language" when we are referring to a place. If someone says "over in Johns Creek," I know where they are talking about because Johns Creek has signs posted where the city starts.
While a neighborhood entrance sign basically does the same thing, it's not as important, IMO, for understanding the area. For the most part, I have no need to know where neighborhoods are if I or my friends don't live in them.