Is it time to start retiring ALL cemetery gravestones/mausoleums
Mirthmaker-ING Posts: 39 ✭✭
edited March 24 in General Discussion
Under what circumstances will any graves headstones mausoleums or tombs be removed as portals?
I argue that ALL except for very specific exceptions (E.g., The Eternal Flame in Arlington, Virginia, USA) go away to discourage anyone who shouldn't be at a cemetery from ever going.
Bottom line: The front door is fair game, nothing inside is.
Disagree. Different cemeteries are different. Some have areas to picnic, walking trails. Someone once mentioned their cemetery hosted weddings. Some only have all historic graves, no active mourners visit. There are many reasons to allow cemeteries.
We have a cemetery that is a "memorial park" and visiting even just to walk or jog is fine. We also have state historical markers in another that are meant to be visited.
To answer the question "under what circumstances" it's the same reason you can report any ineligible portal - is it permanently removed for example? Also cemeteries can contact niantic about having POI removed or set to certain hours.
Need some examples, the only one thacomes to mind is Arlington ( The eternal flame) .
Even Père Lachaise (Paris) and Recoleta ( Buenos Aires) are still active.
Long term trying to NOT have half hour before closing shenanigans and have them be fought over. I don't think this is what was meant by get out and move.
Set certain hours is obvious - operating hours in the box I play in- it's the former that causes issues.
That sounds like an issue with your community and not with the POI itself. If it's an issue for the cemetery they can make those requests to niantic. I do recall a cemetery north of me that had to do that.
The cemetery where I live is open 24 hours a day.
All cemeteries near me are open 24/7 and you're allowed in at all times, people use then for exercise. As for when are they acceptable, niantic have said, notable people are allowed. Mausoleums are very rare in my area as well, so they would be notable. This seems more like you're unhappy people are using a limited time portal, that's am issue I your area and an ingress issue, not a Wayfarer issue
Half the people in this forum : I can’t believe my POI got denied. The other half: I can’t believe this POI got accepted. The other half (I’m not good at math) we should remove a bunch of POI because I don’t like them.
Honestly, no one owes you any examples. You really need to acknowledge that your life experience doesn't encompass the entirety of all cultures and local rules.
But I can give you examples.
Those are just 2 in my state. I know there are more in my state that are local points of interest that encourage visiting, exercising, walking your dog, etc.
Ultimately all that matters is how the cemetery feels about it. If they welcome gamers and those gamers are well-behaved, it's not up to you to overrule the local culture.
I'm not a fan and could live without cemeteries @Mirthmaker-ING
That's just personally though and it's probably better to view, rate each submission on its individual location, merit etc rather than have one rule for all cemeteries, headstones.
"Garden cemeteries" started becoming popular in the United States in the 1830's, mainly because church and other small cemeteries were overcrowded and spreading disease. In many cities, these cemeteries were the only park-like settings, and were used by the public by design. People held picnics, strolled, or otherwise enjoyed these lovely surroundings with great pleasure. In my personal favorite, the Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn, there are always visitors and events as well as the tombstones or mausoleums of the formerly famous. I'd hate to see those Wayspots go away - they've helped me guide my walking route, and enhanced my pleasure in my visits!
Cemetery locations are not within guidelines for removal by players. Niantic will remove them if the management of the cemetery requests it. New cemetery locations are unlikely to pass in Wayfarer, as the “Location Sensitive” rejection reason was made specifically for declining cemetery nominations.
As for calling for blanket removal, remember that cemeteries are treated differently in different cultures; while a cemetery near you may have gates and close for the night, in another country it may be a churchyard and remain open at all hours, while in other places a cemetery may be a desirable location to go, especially at certain festivals or times of year.
As for gym battling, figure it out. Load them up and defend them, let them go, or flip them the last minute yourself. But don’t call for a blanket change to all Niantic games because you’re salty about losing a gym.
OP is just salty because he plays in my area and I sometimes make Ingress fields from a cemetery and he, in his searing hate and despise towards ALL Resistance players, wants to remove all wayspots(portals) which any Resistance player ever uses.
Watch Invalid Wayspot Appeal forum for him making multiple threads asking for them to be removed🙄
And there's always people claiming that Pokemon players are the ones ruining Lightship.
You complain about something yet you go do it yourself. You go into a cemetery 5 minutes before the closing and have the nerve to complain about "shenanigans"?!
You are a hypocrite and your words have no honor. All you know is how to play a victim.
I don't like Wayspots at recent graves at a non-public cemetery, where grievers have a reasonable expectation of privacy to cry without being disturbed by clueless gamers.
If the grave is older than 25 years, and either the person is famous OR it has a nice statue (often an angel or lamb) - sure. (There are gradations of yes/no along these lines - it's situational.)
If the cemetery advertises itself as a park, walking trail, or tourist destination - of course!
Just google Cemetery Tourism - it's big and getting bigger. For example https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/20386
Grievers in a public cemetery do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You’re using that term incorrectly. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your home or backyard, for example.
I generally reject cemeteries as location sensitive, but as someone who lives in Arlington, by the cemetery OP mentioned, I wanted to point out that even Arlington is still an active cemetery. There are burials there that happen, even as tourists mill around to see the eternal flame or Tomb of the Unknown. So it’s not as great of an exception as OP tried to make it seem. It’s all relative, as others have said. OP is a bit of a hypocrite with that one.
They just want the Portals conquered by opposing faction to be removed. Such a display of in-sportsmanship from Ingress player.
They need to learn some examples from Pokemon GO players for taking down Shadow Mewtwo from Shadow Raids together without knowing what team they are.
Ingress is, for the most part, a team versus team game. When Niantic removed team advantage from raids in Pokemon Go, they essentially removed a key competitive element and it no longer really matters what team one is on, except in gym control which is now more transactional than competitive with many players having agreements so that all players can get maximum coins. My main point is, I guess, that the two games are vastly different and what's right for one game is not necessarily right for the other. That doesn't mean that bad actions such as malicious removals or strategic location edits are acceptable, they're not. Legitimate team competition in game, though, is what makes Ingress fun.
Personally, I do not like cemeteries that have grave markers of unknown civilians next to them, even if the markers are of famous people, and still in operation.
I have given an example before, but John Lennon's Strawberry Fields in Central Park is appropriate as a WAYSPOT.
In general, however, cemetery grounds are very sensitive places.
Since Arlington Cemetery was mentioned here, my impression is that "Marine Corps War Memorial , USMC War Memorial" might be appropriate.
And from what I can see, there are no grave markers in that vicinity.
But "Tomb of the Unknowns" is a place to pray and the area around it seems too sensitive.
I personally feel that this area needs to be sorted out.
We are one citizen before we are game players.
Without the tolerance of uninvolved citizens, we cannot play the game.
Well, I'm sure there are different views on that, but I would not be proud in any way to defeat Shadow Mewtwo with my alt account.
Pokémon GO players have become so desensitized to the ToS.
At least I wouldn't want to develop a relationship with someone who can't even follow the rules of the game.
But we are not "one citizen"... we are citizens of one planet sure... with very very different cultures. Some cemetaries double as parks, gardens, picnic locals, others find it disrespectful for non-mourners to be in. That's what local reviewers using local culture should be doing.
But just food for thought: Everything said in this thread anti-cemetary applies to churches as well. And Churches are basically an autoaccept. There are plenty of religious people in churches, even clergy members, who find the idea of playing a game in a house of god as "Disrespectful" at least as disrespectful as cemetary playing is to mourners. I have seen a pastor come out and start yelling at people to not play that game, that his church is for god, not some game.... I have seen a priest come out and start video taping lisence plates. I have even had the police called on me in a church parking lot. The priest called and said someone was sneaking around on church outside the doors/window. Either my luck was horrible and I showed while some was casing the church on foot, or the priest lied. Thankfully it was a pouring rain night, and I was able to point out to the officer that I was bone dry as was the inside of my car. But does a Ban all Churches thread exist???? Nope.
Anyway, I've even told an angry priest, if you really don't want people here, just google how to get a pokestop removed by Niantic. It must have worked because it ended up gone not long after. Cemetaries or Churches that don't want stops/gyms/portals can and do get them taken down.
I know that such cemeteries also exist.
In Japan, the Yokohama Foreign General Cemetery, where burials were once held, has become a tourist attraction.
Toda Memorial Cemetery Park, which is an active cemetery, is famous for its cherry blossoms.
However, such cemeteries are usually officially advertised on the web or in pamphlets.
If you can show that when you make your nomination, you will be closer to approval.
However, as you say, there are cemeteries where the opposite is true.
And there are countless churches, shrines, temples, and other religious institutions that have been removed.
Of course, this is not an easy thing to stipulate.
However, the criteria currently set forth by Niantic are very poor.
The distinction between individuals and groups and the order of priority is too unclear.
I hope the team staff and ambassadors will clarify this.
We had 2 perfectly good wayspots removed a short while ago. They only were online for a few days.
Both were rememberance monuments.
They only could have been asked to remove by the opposing ingress faction player that is active there.
Except wayfarer has explicitly mentioned acceptance criteria of "Public places of worship".
What OP was complaining about are actually huge family tombs and mausoleums constructed by notable members of the Brooklyn Jewish community probably over 100 years ago. Nothing recent.
He has 0 genuine concern for any sensitivity or respect for the location. His singular desire is to remove a wayspot used in Ingress by the opposite team which he despises(and I don't use that word lightly here). Look at his other appeal posts - every single one is in the territory dominated by the opposite faction.
I totally get it. My point was to show that the some communities idea that "All graveyards are somehow sensitive locations" is pretty crappy idea when you logically compare that attitude to churches. If anything GY should be explicitly mentioned as an acceptance location like a church, and leave it up to local communites to know the attitude of their local GY with the backup being the GY can request a removal just like a church can.
As for Ingress Abuse: Perhaps Ingress needs to impliment a rule like you can only request removal (or other edits) of portals that your own faction has controlled for more than 72 hours. If your team hasn't controlled the portal for 72 hours, you simply don't get an edit/removal option on that portal. This would make it where Ingress players are only going to edit/remove stuff that they believe really should be edit/removed because it hurts their own faction, rather than abusing the system in an attempt to hurt the other faction. I am not sure though if that's an idea for Wayfarer Forums or Ingress Ones.
This might shock you, but Pokémon go isn't the only game where people have multiple accounts. It's only the one where they openly brag about them.
NBA All world too? Shocking!
What does having multiple accounts have to do with this particular form of abuse?????? Reporting POIs to get them taken down to hurt the opposing faction isn't an issue for Pokemon Go. Sure it has 3 teams, but the game isn't built competitively enough for people to abuse removal requests.
Abusive Removal Requests or Edits to hurt the other faction (team), is an Ingress Only Abuse that they could fix by simply requring a faction to control a portal for some length of time (I arbitrarily picked 72 hours) before Ingress players could edit/remove.
This isn't meant as a slam on Ingress players or to say Pokemon Players don't have other abuse issues, its just a potential fix to an Ingress Only Problem.
Nah. They just need any report function or whatever to temporary or permanently close Portals they can't reach so it won't bother other games especially Pokemon GO.