Is it time to start retiring ALL cemetery gravestones/mausoleums



  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The most recent case I can think of in Ingress was a malicious removal, somehow approved by Niantic, of a Wayspot at an apartment long occupied by members of a particular team. This removal was requested by someone of their own faction, because there's a deep schism locally among members of that team. Imposing special removal rules in Ingress wouldn't solve this problem - Niantic, I think, just needs to be better at approving only legitimate removals with strong proof that they either no longer exist or meet other published removal criteria. Unfortunately, that's not been the case in the past, so that's why people continue to attempt to game the system in this fashion.

    Even if cemetery grounds were ruled ineligible by Niantic tomorrow, the existing Wayspots in cemeteries would not meet removal criteria unless specifically requested by the cemetery owners, I believe.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cheaters can have an account with the other faction, so locking removal requests based on the owning faction won't work for abusers.

  • Zusie-INGZusie-ING Posts: 130 ✭✭
    edited May 23

    A lot of good work can be done preserving the past by having people in the cemetery with cell phones.

    Find A Grave is an amazing way to preserve gravesites (yes, they got bought out but are still a good site). First of all, it keeps the cemeteries honest. If someone in California can see that their grandmother's grave (in a supposedly maintained cemetery) in Vermont is overgrown or damaged they can complain. A lot of stuff happens with cemeteries due to out of sight out of mind. Sometimes they even surreptitiously destroy them for the land when they think the heirs are too far away to notice. Second of all dog walkers and Pokemon players that regularly visit probably attached to monuments and will notice if there is vandalism or damage to the markers and can report it quickly! Especially historical cemeteries.

    Disturbing funerals and obvious grievers in active cemeteries is just too tacky and upsetting to comprehend, though.

    Post edited by Zusie-ING on
  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 519 ✭✭✭✭

    Ah thank you for clarification. I don't play Ingress, so I didn't forsee that problem. I was led to believe though getting max level in Ingress is quite a bit of work (its not in PGO) do people get their alts to max level so maybe edits/removals need to be same faction + max level. Again I'm just spitballing ideas.

    @Shilfiell-ING You can't stop 100% of abuse in any game, but that's not quite the same as saying you can't make abuse more difficult to pull off

  • Mxx-INGMxx-ING Posts: 121 ✭✭✭

    That is a very uninformed statement.

    I know a number of instances locally where pogoers intentionally removed wayspots that were couch gyms for other people to deny them easy coins, and bragged about it on local discord servers. Malicious reports is not an "Ingress-only" problem.

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24

    @Shilfiell-ING You can't stop 100% of abuse in any game, but that's not quite the same as saying you can't make abuse more difficult to pull off.

    Yes, but that should not include special removal rules for a single game based on team dominance at a particular portal. That's a tiny fraction of overall abuse of the system, and goes against the game-agnostic spirit of Wayfarer and the Lightship database.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 519 ✭✭✭✭

    It's no more an uninformed statement than the dozens and dozens of posts saying the coal being reviewed comes from PGO.

    While personal beefs might exist in PGO and lead to similiar misbehavior, systematically PGO is simply not built competitively like Faction vs Faction is in Ingress. In PGO, there is simply no way my account gains by removing a waypoint. Even your example, my account doesn't get coins/stuff by denying you coins at your in Ingress, there is. So in that sense, I stand by my statement.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 519 ✭✭✭✭

    Why not? While I agree Lightship is agnostic to the games.... The rules for submissions do vary in each game. Heck for a while, only Ingress could nominate. Different Levels/Difficulty to get. Not sure how having different rules for Editting (which Removal is a part of) per game is any different than having different rules for submitting.

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The only thing that varies by game is the level required to become eligible to nominate and review. There are no rules in either game that say one team can only do X, and the other team can only do Y. Every Wayfarer takes the same type of test and can perform the same type of actions.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 519 ✭✭✭✭

    You're absolutely correct..... factually. (They do NOT vary by internally inside any 1 game by things like factions/teams)

    I am also absolutely correct... factually (They do to say rules to vary from 1 game to another game)

    This is a distinction we don't have to agree on, and not one that either of us can prove that "I'm correct". If Niantic added a faction rule in for Ingress, it would be both unprecedented (by your definition) and precedented (by mine)

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    None of the variances apply to Wayfarers. As an Ingress player, I've submitted many things that appear in only one game, as each game has unique inclusion rules. Pokemon Go players can submit Ingress-only Wayspots, Ingress players can submit Pokemon Go-only Wayspots. Yes, each game has unique rules for gameplay, because they are entirely different games...but the rules for Wayfarers are not based on game rules except for level of eligibility. Should Valor players not be able to edit a Wayspot that exists in an area controlled by Mystic? Should Instinct trainers not be allowed to submit Title or Description edits?

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 519 ✭✭✭✭

    In game Variance based on Level (Effort to get level) to submit POIs to wayfarer does exist. So to add another variance to edit doesn't seem far-fetched to me. Obviously it does to you. The irony is inclusion rules do also vary and do have some impact on submissions. While players can nominate stuff that only appears in other game, people do skip submitting stuff that they know won't appear in other game once they know the inclusion rules.

    Sure, you could add a rule across games where you have to be the same team & same faction to be able to suggest an Edit. But there was a specific reason for suggesting such a rule only apply to Ingress and not PGO. This thread started with an Ingress player trying to remove stops from the opposing faction. In Ingress, you gain by removing a POI controlled by other faction. In PGO you don't. Hence the motivation to remove a stop to help your team/faction is Ingress Only. Hence, I simply suggested a potential fix to an Ingress Only problem with an Ingress Only Fix. ((PGO has its own problems too but that wasn't the topic of this thread)

    If you don't like that, cool, I doubt Niantic will do it anyway,

  • dd1989-INGdd1989-ING Posts: 37 ✭✭✭

    Completely disagree.

    In the UK, especially Scotland where I live, cemeteries are seen as a place to visit and appreciate, even if you are not family of the dead. People are not precious about them at all in the same way you seem to be suggesting, and there are even Facebook Community Groups for towns and cities all over which post photos of Graves and talk about the history of them, encourage them to be cleaned, go into the Ancestry etc.

    I have submitted lots of Graves of notable individuals, such as the Clan Fraser Mausoleum who were a family of Scottish Nobility during the Jacobite Uprising and Scottish Wars of Independence, as well as graves of Nobel Prize Winners and high ranking Military individuals.

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,248 Ambassador
    edited May 26

    This topic has been argued to dea-th (pardon the pun) a million times over. @Nianthib can we close this? I think all sides have had their say. Ultimately, Niantic has left it up to each local community (and cemetery owners) to determine whether or not there will be POI in these locations.

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There’s really no reason to close a lively debate. Others may have other perspectives that they wish to share. You don’t have to continue to read the thread if you don’t wish.

  • xLilPoundcake-PGOxLilPoundcake-PGO Posts: 74 ✭✭✭

    I live in a major city where a cemetery is literally listed as one of the top 5 things tourists should do when they visit on every website imaginable. There are a lot of famous/historically significant people buried there, and it's over 150 years old. It has the tomb of a former U.S. President, a few famous authors from the 19th and 20th century, and a ton of former political figures. People are, and should be, encouraged to visit. I get the impulse to say "this is disrespectful." POI nominations for random people are disrespectful at their core, but I think it's oddly kind of antithetical to what Wayfarer cultivates to say all POI in cemeteries should not be eligible.

    This is probably because I think of POI as another type of archive that exists in the world now, and literally view them as place markers that I can use to find interesting things that I may have missed otherwise. I like stumbling on things in-game that I didn't know existed, and cemeteries are kind of a major place that can happen. I guess I think of exploring places like these can be culturally relevant and rewarding. But I'm also obviously a giant nerd.

    I say let's all judge people who submit random graves of people who are recently deceased and reject their nominations without throwing the whole project away. I mean, taking this kind of nuance into account is literally what the review system is for.

    *gets off soapbox*

  • Kawhinot-INGKawhinot-ING Posts: 183 ✭✭✭

    No. There is a large cemetery near me that is a VERY popular spot for walkers and runners since it is very lush and park-like. The Cemetery even hosts walking tours and there is even a visitors center there. In addition, there are some very famous people buried there with gravestones and memorials that people seek out to find.

  • PaulingZubat-PGOPaulingZubat-PGO Posts: 486 ✭✭✭✭

    Through this review, I've found cemeteries that have similar memorials and shrines that may be seen as informative and okay to visit (tight security though). Nominate with discretion.


  • The26thDoctor-PGOThe26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Graveyards can be fun, happy places too!

    Here is the 18th century Scottish poet, Europhile and cone head wearing Robert Fergusson outside the Canongate Kirk.

    Unfortunately someone has added the pic to the Wayspot grave of Adam Smith inside the Kirk as Fergusson's statue isn't in the database.

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