Historic weir...marked as a "natural feature"

Hi,

I would like to ask about this rejected nomination.

It is a historic weir that can be found on a map from 1829 (I do not have acess to older maps that are detailed enough) that was bulid as a source of water for a mill (millrace does not exist anymore and mill is abandoned ruin) so this is the last remanence of this that still exist today and is in use (it has been renovatd a few years ago). From a cronic this was one of the most important constructions (without it thre would be no water for the mill=no food) as it was named among the list of construction.

...but it seems that wayfarer rewierers think that this clearly man made historically important and recently reconstructed structure is a "natural feature"

here is a look from google maps(the green space with trees abowe weir is owned by the willage that also planted a plumb trees as a part of the project "orchards for Liptál"):

Comments

  • saarstahl-INGsaarstahl-ING Posts: 183 ✭✭✭

    Could be hard to convince reviewers that this is a great place to explore. Despite its long history, it looks just like a normal river weir. You can appeal or resubmit, but be prepared to be disappointed.

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    I mean even people living here do not know that this is a historic construction (and exploring could mean learning that something we think is just normal thing is in fact not and hides a long story), the place above it is often used for picknics (now with the presence of plumb trees people can have a snack too...so this seems like socializing aspect to me), there is a small path along the river (no official markers but kids love it and pretend they are in a jungle and exploring-till this day I regret showing it to my cousins because they always want to walk there instead of regular road even if we are in a hurry :D ) that begins by this weir (so we have also exploration aspect)

    ...maybe if I mention these two aspects too it could get approved?

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is simply a river weir.

    It does not meet the approval requirements simply because it is old.

    Also, rivers, oceans, and other bodies of water are not so much recognized as places for human beings to step into.


    If there is a plaque with a written statement indicating that it is a unique object in the academic world, it might meet the requirements for exploration and be approved.

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    yes it is old and historically important-without it that meant without it people here would starve(a mill and any bulidings and structures conected to it had extreme importance for locals as their life depended on it), it a place on a pathway that is usted to meet others and rest (as I already explained before-also did you know that "blue spaces"=areas where you can see and most importantly hear the water are proven to have more beneficial effects on human health than "green spaces"=parks/forests), it is also used for kids to swin there (there as more than one meter of water there and no stron current so its safe-the presence of critiaclly endangered european knightfisher and european crayfish are an indicator of clean water)


    a map from 1829 showing this weir was present-I really encouraged you to look at it as it is a historical material that was created during the rein of Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor (and as my little village with 1 500 inhabitans does not have the financial means to put plaue to every important historical buliding/structure-I mean we have bulidings that date to the 14th century and 99% of bulidings you see on this map still stand and are used today):

    https://ags.cuzk.cz/archiv/openmap.html?typ=ciom&idrastru=B2_a_6MS_1577-1_8

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    yes it is old and historically important-without it that meant without it people here would starve(a mill and any bulidings and structures conected to it had extreme importance for locals as their life depended on it), it a place on a pathway that is usted to rest (as I already explained before-also did you know that "blue spaces"=areas where you can see and most importantly hear the water are proven to have more beneficial effects on human health than "green spaces"=parks/forests), it is also used for kids to swin there (there as more than one meter of water there and no stron current so its safe-the presence of critiaclly endangered european knightfisher and european crayfish are an indicator of clean water)

    a map from 1829 showing that it was present (and as my little village with 1 500 inhabitans does not have the financial means to put plaue to every important historical buliding/structure-I mean we have bulidings that date to the 14th century and 99% of bulidings you see on this map still stand and are used today):


  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 606 ✭✭✭✭

    you have a lot of explanation for why you think a site is important and interesting, but remember, the point is to explain how the POI meets one or more of the following:

    -a great place to exercise

    -a great place to explore

    -a great place to gather socially

    If the site is something not particularly distinctive (weirs are not uncommon) that does not inspire exploration, even if old, and even if important (roads are important because without them most people today would starve because they need food delivered by trucks), it won’t be considered eligible. Also, as previously noted, there needs to be a marker that is physically accessible by foot (by path, trail or walkway). If the community has not placed a plaque to recognize the weir, it seems that others do not share your perspective of its importance. Focus more on why OTHERS would consider it a “GREAT place to…”

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    It is on a pathway used by people to take a walk along the river...in poor regions like mine plaques are not something most villages have money to spend on (that is something done more in west europe).

    I just dont understand: there is a pathway along the river in a beautifull nature and this is a place where most people stop and take a break (or picnic under the trees above the weir). Firesport group uses this place to take a jog. This looks like it has both social and excercise.

  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 606 ✭✭✭✭

    Now what you are describing is the path, not the little dam in the stream. Yes, that can promote exercise. Is it a marked trail? Maybe submit that instead, but you still haven’t described how the weir fits any of the eligibility criteria.

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    well as I said this is a rural area and village does not have enough disposable income to mark every historical buliding/monument/turistic path (some of them have just online marked pathways but that won´t help me in this case)


    The weir is not only something that a pokestop would help share the history of (poeple nowdays often just walk past it and this would make them stop an actually look at it), it has parts that are used to sit on (and as I said blue spaces have beneficial effects on mental health)

    I will just give up ith this nomination...there are pokestops that are literarly a smiley face on a wall made by pernament marked(not even by spraying it ut a pernament marker used for paper), basicly every single little train station in the country, tons of tag graffities that are considered vandalism by law but it seems that historicly important structures that people use to relax by and spend time with friends and resting place after a walk are just not important enough for rewiers (so I guess I will go buy a pernament marker and make a smiley face on some bridge and nominate that instead and I can almost guarantee it will become pokestop 😪)

  • MennoLente-PGOMennoLente-PGO Posts: 83 ✭✭✭

    Wait, are we gaslighting people nowadays?! Indeed, it is visibly man-made (I made this "visible" part up, because I think it follows the spirit of the criteria better, for more accurate interpretation). As far as I can see this should be eligible.

    I even think it has enough cultural-historic value to be a good nomination, despite what others think:

    Is it social or to exercise? Nah. Is it something to explore? If you have more existing or potential wayspots in this theme, it could be argued that it tells a small piece of a story, that fits into a larger narrative of distinct features of this location and it's history.

    Also, a weir like that is a distinct and unique (man-made) feature that gives this place character and it's specific atmosphere and appearance.

    Am I weird for desiring to visit that weir now, if I'd ever visit Poland?

  • Kek0ma-PGOKek0ma-PGO Posts: 63 ✭✭

    It’s great to explore and historical. So eligible, but no safe pass. Especially in a rural area those stops are needed!

    maybe more informations in the description and or supplement description?

    sadly many don’t read them and just reject if they see a slightly good reason (natural feature is indeed wrong).

  • NorbertG82-PGONorbertG82-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    This is unfortunately a tough sell in Czechia. I have a nice spot here with a weir and it was rejected 3x so far. Nevertheless, this look like a well deserving place. I would suggest not giving up and trying this a couple more times as I have seen something similar go through in Poland. Maybe try to take a photo from a different angle, where the waterfall is perhaps not as prominent. And the waterfall is probably the reason for knee-**** "natural feature" rejections. Also I see a bridge in the background. That might actualy be an easier sell, even if it's not as interesting.

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    Originally I wanted to have the wier (with the mention of the mill in the end+the fact thy need to go east to get there) and other pokestop on the ruin of htem mill (that would have a mention of hte wier+info that you need to alk xy minutes west). I´ll try to get a photo when a water level is lower so it is not so prominent+a different angle

    Considering the bridge- I tried to found out but everyone said it was supposed to be temporarly bridge...that was more than 30 years ago (it was reconstructed, painted and repaired quite a few times) so I tought the weir was WAYYYYY more interesting even if it is the only metal bridge like that here (and wier could force people to not only take a better look at it but also make them also walk to the mill even if the buliding itself is not open) 🙂

  • NorbertG82-PGONorbertG82-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    Oh I agree, the weir is definitely more interesting. I would treat the bridge as a fallback option only if you can't get the weir approved. You can get the bridge approved likely within 4 attempts, as long as you take a nice picture and the overall nomination looks decent. It's basically a matter of RNG and getting the right pool of reviewers who don't reject bridges. I have 9 (foot)bridges approved so far + 2 more by other members of my community and 4 was the highest number of attempts needed.

    Also it's really nice to see someone (other than me) not just randomly nominating easy stuff, but studying historical maps and materials to find hidden gems. There is a lot of stuff out there that may not seem historical at first glance, but often has a lot of history and a cool story behind it.

  • MennoLente-PGOMennoLente-PGO Posts: 83 ✭✭✭

    Well, there you have it, @Wensdyyy-PGO ! It's a great submission, it's just the fact that the average reviewer only has the cognitive capability to distinguish a trail marker from a playground. Indeed, half of them are worse.

    Now that I mention it.🤔 I don't even think that the aforementioned half knows the difference between a weir and a waterfall. Is the Czech word for weir more common than the English equivalent? Is there more distinction between the Czech word for weir and waterfall, than in English?

    Nevertheless, it only needs more attempts. Just keep pushing it, if it's worth the trouble for you. Yes, it sucks that it works like this. 😒

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    honestly I had to google the word weir. The word "jez" that I used is the official name of structures like this, public often uses the word "splávek" but that is only used in the east half of Czechia (and given the fact that I encounter nominations from Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Austria regularly I decided that using oficiall name is the safest bet necause the english translation is not used-even someone as me **** spend ) semesters studying geography in the UK this was a word I did not know).

    This is the one I will keep resumbiting (I will try to get some better pictures one it stops raining). There should be put some nominations by niantic randomly put there and if a player rewies them wrong there should be something like time out for them for a few days because the current system does not promote anything that has to do with exploration of things that are not commonly visited already

  • NorbertG82-PGONorbertG82-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    You can actually report people using wrong rejection reasons to help chat and they will get a warning email (and maybe a ban if reported multiple times).

  • MennoLente-PGOMennoLente-PGO Posts: 83 ✭✭✭

    Niantic doesn't have to, players already do that often. And a cooldown won't stop them. If I got a euro for every nomination that was clearly pr.p, reviewing would be an interesting side hustle.

    And don't worry, now you do know the difference between a weir and a waterfall.😉

    There are things more wrong than that with the current wayfarer system. Like: best way to get a "poor" rating, is following the rules correctly. For example, if you go the extra mile by checking the government's online land registry, you might be there only one flagging a nomination as pr.p. That causes a poor rating, and no agreements.

    As for quality of the reviews, I think reviewers should be able to become a "specialist": people who don't know what weirs (or water works in general) are, should better be reviewing playgrounds. Some have a knack for architecture. Others are historians, or know their art history, etc. Shouldn't be too difficult implementing, since we can provide nominations with categories nowadays. These specialists could even provide accurate feedback for finetuning the guidelines.

  • MennoLente-PGOMennoLente-PGO Posts: 83 ✭✭✭

    Wait, what?! Really?! In that case, I'll have some work to do! Randomly turning great submissions down, giving the "abusive" reason... That really hurts, after investing so much time and effort.

  • PaulingZubat-PGOPaulingZubat-PGO Posts: 581 ✭✭✭✭

    I do not recommend. No constructive feedback on where they made a mistake and what to improve. Just "we noticed you review wrong, see criteria guidelines. No, we won't show which one you wrongfully rejected."

    Rather use it for Wayfarers that have repeatedly submitted fake and third-party photos.

  • NorbertG82-PGONorbertG82-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    While it's true they don't give a constructive feedback, I have used it succesfully to deal with someone who was rejecting all my nominations for url where the url was only in the supporting info. After 3 or so reports the behavior stopped. And in other situations it may at least discourage rejections.

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    One of my nominations just had a reason "third party photoraph" but it was my photo-please how exactly can I report this (because I eiter can´t find it or I´m blind...)?

  • NorbertG82-PGONorbertG82-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2023

    1) Inside of wayfarer website, click on Help section.

    2) Go to Review or Contributions. An orange button should appear at the bottom right of the screen. Click on it.

    3) Type SKIP and enter.

    4) Pick "Report Wayfarer Abuse"

    5) Pick "Fake nomination or criteria issues"

    6) Enter your nomination name and coordinates. Then tell them it's your wayspot and explain which reasons are incorrect and why.

  • Wensdyyy-PGOWensdyyy-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭

    if anyone is interested I found some new information:

    turns out this wier traces back to 1750s (bulid about the same time as the pub and that opened in 1750 owned by bandits) so I guess that mentioning this could help (maybe even add the number of the page this information is? Not sure how many people own this book "O zbojnikoch a pokladoch" from 1980 in valachian dialect(even for a local person like me it is a difficult reading) but I could try to find an online version or use this as a supportive material for na appeal)

  • MennoLente-PGOMennoLente-PGO Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2023

    I don't think Niantic's own reviewers will be really eager to thoroughly examine any given evidence, though providing it certainly won't do harm either.

    But you may want to consider your options here. Using appeals, it mighty take anywhere from a month up to two years before your hear from it again. Maybe try a few times more before using an appeal.

    One thing though, try feeding your favorite large language model (gpt, bard, bing, etc.) the information you have about this weir, and ask for a description with a maximum of 250 characters, and ask to explain why it's high cultural-historic value makes it worth exploring, maximum 250 characters. Or something along those lines. You won't get you the best results, but it's a helpful and inspiring tool!

  • NorbertG82-PGONorbertG82-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    That is a nice find! You can find the book online here: https://dnnt.mzk.cz/view/uuid:bf102ba0-fb6a-11e3-9789-005056827e52?page=uuid:6fc570e0-0205-11e4-9806-005056825209

    ... but you need to have an appropriate login to read it. I would certainly add all that interesting information but be prepared to submit it multiple times, since a portion of reviewers are a--holes who don't care about any effort you put in. You can also take a photo of the book and add it as the supporting image, which I have done a couple times with decent success.

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