Why is there no option to report blatantly wrong wayspots as abuse?
EddyToo-ING
Posts: 4 ✭✭
After submissions started to actually get decided the local (mainly Pogo) community went into overdrive and is now frantically trying to create as many gyms (and stops) as possible nominating everything that might have a chance of being approved. The motto, at least for some, seems to be "If never hurts to try (and retry retry retry)"
Given the fact that the same group is likely active in reviewing I can now easily locate 10 recently -approved- wayspots in my area that should not have been approved by any honest reviewer.
A few of them can be reported as invalid (house number tile on a private residence, some wooden bird besides the door of a private residence, a landscaped hedge (natural feature) of a private residence). But others can't be reported as invalid (a roadblock to prevent cars entering a sidewalk, a sign warning about recently planted flowers, a basic traffic sign). They are in fact there and not on private property or one of the other limited set of categories.
I find it demotivating that I have to waste time on reviewing these type of phony submissions while also knowing that when I instantly 1* them there is still a fair chance some will be approved anyway and as a result will even hurt my review rating. My rating isn't the biggest deal but it does feel very wrong when you see these type of submissions end up as wayspots.
Keeping basic traffic signs wayspots just because they were once approved without a good appeal process is a very slippery **** because I already have people argue "if that thing is ok why not this one" and it stimulates submitting more nonsense since there is plenty of proof it actually works. And you can endlessly retry and only need to get it through once.
I understand that Niantic does not want to end up with endless disputes and reevaluations and that there is a lot of grey area where not everybody will (ever) agree on the validity of a some wayspots. I also understand the choice that things that were accepted under old rules are also not open for dispute. I even understand that Niantic bents their own rules if somebody is paying (basketball courts on school grounds). But if we are talking about abusing the reviewing system there should be a way to (easily) report such abuse and have those reports evaluated and when validated acted upon (both by removing the wayspot, but also by acting against the abusers).
There are numerous ways how this can be dealt with and how it could be controlled better. For instance I would be fine if reporting abuse can only be done in the first x months after a wayspot was added. If x% or the last x submissions are rejected reduce the number of submissions and/or place remaining submissions at the back of the queue for that user. 3 strikes out for reviewers who approve wayspots that were determined to be abuse. Prevention is better: Make sure at least 1 of the reviewers is -not- from the region and has a good review rating (is that already the case?) and make a 1* in that case weight heavily).
Pictures say more then words (all active wayspots in the nearby area. all recently added).
In case you wonder: this is not really a lighthouse. If naming it one makes it valid we have a couple of 100 more in the area that look perfectly the same.
This one could be reported as private property, but ...
For the reviewer this is what it looks like on streetview. There is just no way this is an honest reviewing mistake or judgement call and just reporting it as invalid because of "private property" does not reflect the actual issue that this was not reviewed in good faith.
Comments
I'm noticing the same.. the nominators seem to be stretching the boundaries (claiming traffic signs are a form of trailmarker), the fakes are becoming so obvious that you'd think there's a voting ring active here..
So there is definitely something happened in the Netherlands.
@Elijustrying-ING if you please.
Blantant abuse (imho)
Streetname sign https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.295407,4.662037
just a building https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.291714,4.699433
just a building https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.291293,4.703387
?? https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.296452,4.725555
blank electricity box https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.301747,4.70947
a "lake"? https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.304442,4.708275
standard information sign that dogs can walk without a leash https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.300702,4.706892
Another one https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.308515,4.693374
visible piping (sewer?) https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.301085,4.706223
?? https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.310998,4.699653
List of companies on industrial area https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.313706,4.695948
Traffic sign https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.308459,4.664535
Housenumber https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.309915,4.658563
Traffic sign https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.308767,4.681073
Car obstacle https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.304513,4.682279
Streetname sign https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.295407,4.662037
Exceptionally questionable
A bit of concrete https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.291353,4.701672
Uhh yeah well (generic logo against smoking). https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.291568,4.686959
part of a building https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.290781,4.703482
one of many busstations along the bus route https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.289222,4.708906
One from chain of restaurants https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.301247,4.696394
Private property https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.313015,4.697425
4 on a row:
Local Business, no context https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.312593,4.694409
Local Business no context https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.312278,4.694153
Local coffeeshop https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.312019,4.694588 (nb they do not really sell coffee here, adult only)
Local business https://intel.ingress.com/?pll=52.311722,4.695251
But my point is not about getting these removed but that we need Niantic to allow us to report this as abuse and that they act against those who approved this in review otherwise this will only get worse and worse.
I can understand Niantic's dilemma here. For starters, there is a lot of subjectivity and very different opinions about what meets and what does not meet the eligibility criteria. As such Niantic wants to limit any invalid Wayspot reports to criteria that have little to no room for subjectivity or differing interpretations. This results in bad Wayspots being forever left in the game with no way to remove them. But if Niantic starts getting involved in removals over subjective criteria, then there will forever be fights over whether Niantic's decisions were correct or not. Take for instance a Wayspots whose picture is just an empty field save for a few trees. Some claim that it is a park and is eligible. Others say it is just landscaping that doesn't meet any eligibility criteria. Both sides fervently believe they are correct in their interpretation of the criteria even though they come to opposing conclusions. A Niantic "employee" is then left to pick a side and regardless of what the ruling is, the other side will consequently appeal the decision believing that the decision is "not legitimate", "invalid" or some other.
I mean, even with the current mostly objective removal criteria, there are still arguments made about what is and is not on private residential property, what constitutes safe pedestrian access, and what does it means by obstructing or interfering with emergency services.
I understand exactly what you mean.
Over the past few years, instead of great wayspots, garbage wayspots have piled up.
Few players really understand what a POI is anymore.
In Ingress, they are simply "places to capture and link" and in PoGo, they are "Pokemon gyms where you can refill your Pokeballs or Raid".
But the current manager and team will not deal with it.
They only care about the size of the numbers, not the quality.
And they only care about large cities in developed countries where the backlog is simply building up, not rural or remote locations where it is really needed.
It is like trying to fill in all the squares with chess pieces.
So everything they manage to do becomes a pile of garbage.
It is worth remembering that the PoGo team recently issued a statement saying that they would be penalized for sending low quality AR scans.
For some reason players reacted the other way, which was impressive, but it was also impressive that the Wayfarer team, which is supposed to be managing that data, didn't make any comment.
It's unfortunate, though, because several previous managers on the Wayfarer team were quite concerned about quality.
That to me is downplaying the point. I am not arguing about the disputable ones. I want them to allow us to report blatant abuse by submitters and reviewers of those submissions. If we can't easily report them there is also no way the abusers have any real risk of consequences.
This is a wayspot image I received today. There is no dispute about this one and there can't be one. Submitter and reviewers abused the system to get a wayspot. https://intel.ingress.com/intel?pll=52.053379,4.508984
And what about this one https://intel.ingress.com/intel?pll=51.943458,4.554466
Some "funny" examples.
Hopefully Niantic is currently more active and listen to the ambassadors, so maybe everyone involved gets a ban from Wayfarer. The person that sent those nominations and everyone that didn't mark them as 1*
@kawin240-ING said on reddit that the ambassadors are currently working on the issue about the abuse in The Netherlands, but cannot say much about it for strategic reasons.
In the topic I made there are more examples of coal nominations. (Linked above)
Maybe for completeness it is also good to add that I limited my list (which I could already expand as well) to things that I consider beyond dispute.
I can list multiple dozens of wayspots added in the last 2 weeks that are very low quality (putting it mildly). From the local feedback I received I have not heard of (m)any submissions getting rejected recently (yes that is only anecdotal evidence). They appear to be either approved or are pending.
Anything elevated from the floor is a bridge. Any marking on an apartmentbuilding is art, The shopping mall in the centre of town now has like 5 new wayspots with information signs and/or maps of the shopping centre, a wayspot for a staircase you can sit on, the entrance itself. a concrete barrier with a flower graffiti on it,. Ordinary benches.
Based on normal reviewing I would have expected most of those to fail once or more and only some to pass as all of them at least have some merit that could persuade a reviewer to accept.