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Would this be acceptable?

This is a shop I went by on my bike, it's a craft shop on a canal boat, when I googled it, it's a permanent shop, it diesnt move so it could be considered a hidden gem yes?



  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that it will be very difficult to prove it is not temporary.

    I know it is not always appropriate to rely on Wayspots that are already in game, but one example is the retired Q.S.M.V. Abegweit, a decommissioned icebreaking railway, vehicle, and passenger ferry that now serves as a clubhouse.

    If the nomination declared and additional information such as the business website or even better a city government link backed up that claim, I would accept it (assuming the business itself met general criteria, of course).

  • rangersbc72-PGOrangersbc72-PGO Posts: 62 ✭✭✭

    I'll second @Gendgi-PGO 's assessment. I checked their website and found no obvious evidence in a cursory scan that this business is decommissioned or stationary. I was looking for a sentence like "located on a former tugboat..." etc. Without such a sentence, I'd assess this as "Plausible that vehicle is not decommissioned and may be movable" and likely recommend rejection on "Temporary" grounds.

    To strengthen this submission, please find an Exhibit that provides evidence that this boat's sailing days are over. Conditional on that Exhibit, my instinct would to be call it a hyper-local business and err on the side of approval.

  • Sugarstarzkill-PGOSugarstarzkill-PGO Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think if you can find evidence of it not being movable/temporary, it'd make a very interesting submission! Just take heart that businesses are just notoriously hard to get approved, period. Really taking the time to write great descriptions/support info will go a long way.

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2020

    I mentioned in the nomination that it was viewable in google maps and street view, both of which are about 6-10 years old, and this is their website that mentions where they are located (I think it did at least) though I fully expect it to fail on the temporary and generic business grounds, it should pass but I doubt it

  • rangersbc72-PGOrangersbc72-PGO Posts: 62 ✭✭✭

    Hmmm, you just raised a very good point of evidence of decommissioning. If the boat is in the same place it was several years ago....

    I'd recommend making that point somewhere!

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    I did, I said in the supporting that it hadn't moved for 20+ years and that it was visible on google maps and street view, also I think I mentioned that they website states its location, not exactly going to state a location if you can move was my thought process

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    Although it may or may not be decommissioned there is nothing stopping it from being moved as it just needs to be hooked up to a working boot and pulled somewhere else. I have worked on boats before and seen this happen many times with boats that are no longer running moved about. For me it's a reject on that basis. Unlike a business on land its relatively easy to move a boat

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    It's not moved in 20 years. And if we want to argue that something can move meaning it will be temporary, businesses move all the time, they will shut down, move to other buildings, be bought over and change name etc. If you want to argue temporary, then "it can move at any point" will be used for everything, even statues can be removed or moved to other places, common sense needs to be used ..... something we know you dont use much

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    Correct that's why generally shops are not accepted and generic. The difference being one it bricks and mortar the other the ropes can be untied and pushed away. As for common sense I think that's a clear sensible answer because I disagree agree doesn't mean it's the wrong answer and trying to insult because you dont like the answer is very immature.

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    I am loving the disagreements so I thought I'd go for a few more I ha e actually looked at the website for that boat. It doesn't say anything about being there for 20years. But what I did notice is this

    So if I'm not mistaken its k-12 as it only occasionally opens for adults its primary age range is for children.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    'Suitable for School Age to Adults' does not make something K12. Yes it offers classes for children (and occasionally adults), but if it's generally open to all age groups outside of those classes I can't see how it could be argued it's K12.

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    If it says occasionally that would suggest more often than not it's for children.

    A scout hut would be rejected if it occasionally did a function 1 night a week that wasnt scout related it is exactly the same.

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    You dont even have to google the link for the boat just click on what was posted every bit of it screams k-12

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    I think you're stretching the comparison - it's generally available as a drop in location for all age groups. Yes the booked sessions are predominantly for children, but I don't think that makes it K12, any more than a Community Centre that was open to all during the week but held a children's after school club a couple of nights a week. I also can't see anything to suggest that children can be left unaccompanied - a place where parents go with children wouldn't be K12, whereas a place where children are left probably would be.

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    I suggest you actually look at the reviews more this has k12 all over it. But going back to the original posters comments it says it hasnt moved for 20 years but if you had looked at the pictures in google you would have also noticed it's a different boat to some of the pictures.

    Suggesting it has moved and been replaced so again it suggests to me it's not eligible.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    I don't see anything in the reviews that leads me to conclude this is definitely K12 - it seems to operate in a similar manner to a lot of these ventures - open for drop in all day Saturday/Sunday whilst having a couple of hours of after school club a couple of times a week.

    Even if the boat has only been their two years rather than 20 that would imply a degree of permanence beyond 'temporary or seasonal'. Anything can change location. It doesn't strike me as a pop-up venture , or a business that moves around. It would be the same as a cafe in a converted railway carriage. Being capable of being moved does not make something temporary or seasonal - boats/trains that are operating as boats/trains are ineligible - permanently moored boats aren't.

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    No It isnt, it's the same boat in the same position, and the website even gives its location, if its location wasnt fixed, why give one as a permanent one on the website? And it's open for all ages, classes are more for children but they also do adult ones but it's open to all for drop in session, as again the website says.

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    So I'm ment to ignore that it seems to be k12 (nothing tells me other wise just lots of pictures of children painting models) and ignore the fact it definitely looks like a totally different boat to the black one and am I also ment to ignore that it wasnt there for at least 2 weeks? How do I know it's not going to be there if I was to visit? I think this is definitely not eligible.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    If you're convinced it's K12 you're perfectly at liberty to mark it as such - I think deciding a place that is according to the web site open to all ages most of the time is misuse of the K12 criteria - child focused does not equal K12 by any reading of the rules I've seen, but go ahead if you've found guidance to the contrary.

    If you think a premises closing for 2 weeks for refurbishment makes it ineligible, again that's your decision. One of the local statues was removed for a month for restoration before being returned to where it had stood since the 1890's - I wouldn't consider that temporary and would ignore it - you clearly have a different concept of permanence to me. If a business has been operating for over a year in one location I'd consider it permanent

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    I think I would be happy to reject for both reasons. There artical I posted said it was 2 weeks until it was returned replacing the hull will have ment it was gone for a lot longer.

    You know I think this come up before in the Ingress forum and niantics view was the lock and the Moaring was eligible as they are permanent but not the boats.

    But from what I have read on there website that to me is temporary it can and has been moved for probably over a month. And from what pictures and and the website text saying it is occasionally open for adults just doesn't convince me it's not k12

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    For me the fact that it is open for all age groups most of the time, rather than it holds more children's classes than adults stops it from being K12, but I think we shall have to agree to disagree on that.

    Permanently moored boats are certainly eligible - e.g. HMS Belfast, some floating restaurants, museum ships - it's only operating boats that are ineligible according to the criteria.

    I don't think something temporarily removed for repair stops it being permanent - if it was regularly absent then I would agree, but if something was otherwise in the same place for a number of years I would suggest it's not temporary or seasonal. If it only moored up every Summer then yes - seasonal, if it only moored up for a few months every so often then yes temporary - being removed for repair for a few weeks every few years doesn't imply temporary to me.

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    It was gone for over 3 months I checked plus it was closed for 2 months after the last 2 Christmases it is closed now and from what the website says may not reopen.

    But this is an operating boat it's not permanent like HMS Belfast and the comparison is not comparable as you said it meets much more criteria being a museum.

    For me personally as for k12 for all we know it could be 1 night a month that it hosts adults. The fact it is targeted at children and holds children's groups there more leads me to believe it is its primary market. From what the website suggests is that the on land shop is open during the day but the boat is only open for the groups.

    As I say niantic have commented in the past saying it's the mooring and the locks that are eligible not the working boat as this is on it.

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    @Dazzz12345-ING closed for coronavirus? That's going to be your argument now? Guess we should remove every pub as they are closed as well then eh

    It moves to get fixed on occasion, big whoop, virtually every shop, bar, attraction etc. Gets shut for renovated, virtually every statue will get moved for getting fixed. Your argument for temporary is shocking, it really is, potential to move is not the same as guarantee to move and never return. It's clearly still there on Google maps, it has a black roof which you can even see on the photos above and the website, and if you go onto street view it's even in its exact same place.

    It literally says on the website it's for use of kids to adults, tou seem to be picking and choosing what you want to read, no shock there, you always choose to fit your narrative. But let me ask you a question, do you accept play parks? If you do why? Why accept them when their only use is for children

    This is not a working boat, a working boat would be, by definition, a boat thays used for work, it doesnt move, it doesnt operate as a boat, it doesnt ferry passengers, it doesnt move constantly up and down the canal. Hell its website gives its permanent placement, so its clearly not a working boat but a shop.

    At the end of the day, you are stretching to reject, finding reasons that arent there. But it's no surprise for you, you twist anything to suit your narrative

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    I wish people would read.

    I'm not saying because of the virus it is closed at all I am saying it may not reopen again as they haven't got funding.

    There is a massive difference between closing for renovations and moving for 3 months whilst work is being done.

    Yes I dont disagree it is from children to adults but when its primary age target is children with more child focused groups then yes it does lean more to k12. No wonder you are reading what you want from that.

    This is a working boat in every sense of the word it can move by it's own means with no help. That is what is classed as a working boat. I decommissioned boat would mean it would need pushing or pulling. ( not working)

    You asked if it was eligible I have pulled 3 things off the website that says its ot eligible you haven't provided anything other than you saying it has been there for 20years which on its website doesn't mention this. Show me evidence that makes me think it isnt going anywhere.

    I'm guessing the pub the stable as it is referred to is a stop and you want to make one a gym.

    I'm not twisting anything you are the one who is picking up on the one sentence that mentions adults but seems to have overlooked the the amount of photos reviews and groups that mention children's groups held there

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    In fact, its outright in Google maps, that suggests permanence to

    And here it is on google street view in the exact same position

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    Most businesses are on google maps but that information can still be wrong I was just looking at site that said its offices are in London but its map view is completely different. And if you want to argue about street view how many buses can be seen on streetview? Or cars? Or even people. It doesn't mean they will all be there when you go there.

    As I have repeatedly said now look though the AMAs and forums there was a ruling from niantic that said the mooring is permanent and that is eligible but the boats on it are not.

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    @Dazzz12345-ING nothing you have said us actually true though, you have used selective reading the while time, it's the same as always with you, honestly, I've completely lost any interest in debating with you because its constantly you twisting everything to suit. From now, I'm done replying to you and have no interest in anything you say, I dint mind people disagreeing but only if they can actually do it with REAL guidelines and an ACTUAL ability to tear properly, not selectively

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    Please tell me what I have twisted. You have 2 threads that are basically the same. Both of these threads have people who have said pretty much the same thing k12. The difference being is that I have shown you that it isnt there all the time and it may not open again. That for me doesn't say accept it says temporary.

    What I have also noticed is when you dont like answers you repeatedly spam the chats trying to get everyone signing the same song. You dont stop until people just say fine and agree or dont bother replying.

    You have shown no evidence what so ever that suggests to me that

    A it is not k12

    B is going to be there or open again.

    I have also stated that the mooring is probably acceptable if you look for the guidelines. So I am actually trying to help you with at least getting that in but you appear to have blinkers on.

  • NorthSeaPoet-INGNorthSeaPoet-ING Posts: 716 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm going to have to side with Dazzz on this one. It does sound like it could be a temporary thing and the number of children's classes does give the impression it could be K12.

  • gazzas89-PGOgazzas89-PGO Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭

    But it isnt temporary, its moored there permantnely apart from repairs and has been for 20 years, even the website states its position, if you're temporary you dont say where you are

    As for k12, I keep saying the CLASSES are aimed more for children, but it's a drop in one that can be used for all ages, and says so. If you say having classes aimed at children is k12, would you say community ity centres hat has classes aimed at children is k12? Or as has been suggested before, resteraunts like chucky cheese be k12. Even play parks are somehow 5* yet they are literally aimed at children. My point to that one is, if certain parts of it are aimed at children but its open to all, how can it be k12

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