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Is A Former Mayor And Alderman Of A Town An Important Enough Local Figure?

Here is my nomination, which got rejected. It was in voting for a little over a day, which made me think there was some contention. I believe it has been said before that only a small number of 1*s can lead to rejection as a Wayspot. I was told this grave does not meet criteria. In the supplemental information I showed the cemetery chapel for context, as that is clearly visible from satellite (and already a Wayspot).


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Answers

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2020

    @Sugarstarzkill-PGO This cemetery is huge and has many different sections, which house a wide variety of graves. This section (the one with my rejected nomination) happens to have lots of graves from over fifty years ago. I managed to get a couple of other grave sites accepted so it's clearly not impossible, as you say. You can see for yourself what I've had accepted on the Ingress Intel Map. Besides the cemetery map (which I'm astonished was accepted), I submitted everything within the cemetery grounds: https://intel.ingress.com/intel?ll=51.25319,0.5329&z=17&pll=51.25319,0.5329

    The signpost at the entrance (which has been there for years) was not me either.


    EDIT: Maybe I didn't demonstrate the former mayor was important enough? If is considered that a mayor of a town is an important figure, then it's possible people are not following the guidelines on grave sites because they don't like Wayspots in cemeteries, even though they are allowed. This cemetery is treated as parkland by most walking through.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2020

    @NorthSeaPoet-ING RE: Star of David, yes it's possible.

    As far as I know, I don't submit 'uninteresting' grave site. For nominations where there isn't a large stand-out statue from decades ago attached to the grave (which I assume would be a work of art, even the person themselves isn't noteworthy), I am reading the inscriptions on any notable graves I'm checking to make sure the person is of some importance. Given the cell restrictions in Pokémon GO it's even more important than in Ingress or Harry Potter Wizards Unite that I make sure the most important graves stand out and I don't attempt to submit everything (and risk people missing out on being informed of our shared history).

    Even though I doubt the main part of the cemetery will ever reach the threshold for a third gym in Pokémon GO, I believe that I shouldn't not be nominating things just because it won't make a new gym in Pokémon GO. If something is interesting then I feel a sense of duty to educate people about that object. I've even learned lots of things myself whilst making the nominations.

    I came here because I wanted to know if I should try again and seems I should.

  • Gendgi-AmboGendgi-Ambo Posts: 2,715 Ambassador

    I've personally never nominated, however I've helped locals nominate and seen approved memorials for former mayors or governors. I do think there is more reservation with it being associated with a cemetery and human remains. I don't think this in any way disqualifies the nomination, just puts more people at discomfort and less likely to approve.

    If there is anything notable about this particular person that helps distinguish him, that should be included. Youngest elected official, held record of the oldest in office while holding the title, or perhaps significant contributions he made while holding the position. Those would really help distinguish the nomination as well as add general value to the database and players who view it.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I couldn't find much information about him, beyond a single photograph of him outside his business, because he died a century ago. I will say that there does appear to be some hypocrisy on the part of reviewers because the two war memorials and the cemetery Chapel I nominated (from the very same cemetery) were accepted very quickly. If people were really that concerned about players getting the way of mourners, then shouldn't they reject the war memorials and Chapel as well?

  • Gendgi-AmboGendgi-Ambo Posts: 2,715 Ambassador

    The chapel wouldn't have been reviewed with the association of human remains, and chapels are typically considered eligible on their own merit, regardless of where they are at (unless of course in a k-12 location).

    Guidelines DO allow for "a historical figure or significant community figure." And "headstones dedicated to someone significant to the community" are eligible. It is up to the person making the submission to do their best to prove community significance and for the reviewer community to rate it based on the subjectivity and the requirements.

    Without running risk of suggesting a vote for the reviewer in the supplemental information field, I would suggest including information that helps support the "significance" claim as well as reiterating that headstones for such notable figures are acceptable within the guidelines.

  • NorthSeaPoet-INGNorthSeaPoet-ING Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would definitely say try again. If you can fit in more details about the gentleman as well, that could help but I know how restrictive the character limit is for descriptions.

  • TablogEimrats-PGOTablogEimrats-PGO Posts: 52 ✭✭✭

    Significant enough? Definitely. However, I’ve always found cemetery nominations and the like to be tasteless and disrespectful. Even the high profile valid ones.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Significant enough I'd say so, but at the same time, is this one that would be expected to have visitors? If not then that might be a reason to reject for some people

  • Gendgi-AmboGendgi-Ambo Posts: 2,715 Ambassador

    But not a reason to reject per Niantic. Previous AMAs have even been more clear that limited access nominations are acceptable and even in gated communities. A non-local (and even some local) reviewer wouldn't know if an area is specifically unwelcoming of visitors or not, unless they spend time referencing the Googles or driving out to such location to examine the entrance signage, or calling the groundskeeper. None of which are things any reviewer should be tasked with researching. It would be like those who reject apartment nominations for being private residential access, it's reviewers adding unnecessary and excessive reasons.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We've established that a person being a mayor is good enough to meet the criteria of "historical figure or significant community figure". The grave states that he was mayor the town at one point, thus backing up my claim. Would people allow known lies to find their way on gravestones? Either he was mayor or he wasn't. There's no debate in that regard.

    If I find any more information then I will of course add it in my re-submission. Having said that, being mayor alone is enough to mean his grave should be accepted. If people are rejecting this grave then they are not following the reviewing guidelines correctly, because it clearly states on it that this person was the mayor of the town in the past.

  • Sugarstarzkill-PGOSugarstarzkill-PGO Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would personally accept this, so keep trying. Like others have said, these can be difficult nominations. Some people just flat out don't like grave submissions, while plenty of people also just plain don't understand the criteria.

    I feel the same as you- I mapped out a ton of my city's history, including the graves of important historical figures. I've learned a lot of local history and hope others learn more about our town as well.

  • SavageBuneary-PGOSavageBuneary-PGO Posts: 9 ✭✭

    Reviewers still have different interpretations of what a "significant community figure" is, and just being mayor may not be enough to sell the nomination as it is for the tougher reviewers. Being someone who served in office a century ago is not enough. How significant is the mayor? Did he have a particular achievement that the community celebrates? Are there other memorials to him elsewhere in the community? Is he so significant that a local would show his grave to a visitor as part of a historical tour? Otherwise, some would just consider it as the grave of a citizen who at one time just happened to serve as mayor. (Not saying I will personally reject this because I have no idea about your community history, but just offering some lines of thought if I were reviewing this in my community.)

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Inwas thinking more along the lines of the guidelinesnsaying graves that are open for visitors, not that there isnt pedestrian access. For example elvis grave expects visitors, its encouraged, but this might not be encouraged, it kught bot be disallowed but if it's not encouraged then people might not want to accept it

  • NMEofDeState-PGONMEofDeState-PGO Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Answer ✓

    Personally, I think it's worth resubmitting this, as the grave of an interesting local character, not just as an alderman/mayor. This is the Daniel Thomas Lyle who founded a once well-known Maidstone soft drinks company D.T.J. Lyle - you see their bottles (lemonade, ginger beer etc) in vintage/antiques shops around Kent & SE England. For clarification for anyone not familiar with British sodas, ginger beer is non-alcoholic, despite its name!

    You can see an example if you scroll down here... http://www.kenelks.co.uk/kentgingerbeer/maidstone.htm

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It got rejected again. Since it won't make a new gym in Pokéstop GO (cell already has two gyms and doesn't have enough points of interest to potentially add a third gym) I think I'll leave it. Maybe somebody else who submits it will have better luck!


  • PoMaQue-PGOPoMaQue-PGO Posts: 223 ✭✭✭✭

    From what you listed here, I do not see any significant achievements made for the town. He was a mayor and he owned a company, that's all? I'd approve a headstone like this if the person had done anything really significant, setting him/her clearly aside from other mayors (First mayor of the town, passed a historical regarding voting rights, significant actions during the war, ...)

    In Belgium, we elect a new mayor every 6 years. Just being a mayor and having had another job doesn't mean anything here.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The supporting statement included the link that somebody kindly found which had the images of the products produced by his business. Plus I included the photograph of him with this business. I'm half inclined to agree with the poster above you (sorry on mobile no tags right now) but yeah, Mayor of a town is pretty important. I don't have the exact numbers but I'm guessing fewer than 1% of people alive in my country of the Uk today have ever become elected officials. 1% would be 650,000 if my maths is correct.

  • GearGlider-INGGearGlider-ING Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would try to focus more on his public service on the supporting statement than his business. There have been a LOT of businessmen, and far FAR fewer that are well known because of it. On the other hand, Mayors and other high level public servants are known by a wide variety of people and impact the day to day lives of people and society on a much greater level. Try to include photos related to that instead.

  • XK150-INGXK150-ING Posts: 49 ✭✭✭

    Your problem here is that there's nothing here to say his community thought this guy was significant in community history. All a big tombstone proves is that his family was proud of him. Your own family liking you doesn't make your grave wayspot-worthy.

    "Small-town mayor" isn't enough by itself to make someone a significant local figure. Lots of small towns have lots of mayors who didn't do anything interesting. If this guy really was a significant local figure, there world probably be something else in town named after him you can submit.

  • GearGlider-INGGearGlider-ING Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know how you think mayors enter their office, but the plurality (and almost always the majority) of the community elects them to office, so I would say being the mayor would make them well known to almost everyone (aside from those who don't care about politics and shove their head in the sand).

  • PoMaQue-PGOPoMaQue-PGO Posts: 223 ✭✭✭✭

    That depends on how voting happens. Here you vote for a party and whoever they elect as top of the list becomes mayor, whether he's a **** or not.

    Being known in the community doesn't mean you're noteworthy. If the person had a significant, memorable, historical impact on the town during their time in office, then you have someone worth nominating.

    That person would likely also have other things in his honor (statues, roads, memorials, ...)

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    That's not how it works for UK Town Mayors. It's a purely ceremonial position with no power (except for London and a couple of large metropolitan areas). It's not done by community vote, but by the fellow Councillors, typically as a reward for long service within the council and generally along party lines. I suspect most residents in UK towns would struggle to name their current mayor.

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