Helpful Information to evaluate in Germany

Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

Germany and K-12

You might have a lot of "fun" with map markers about educational stuff, because you'll see a lot of our infamous German compound nouns without spaces. In the following I'll show you the most common ones for our K-12. Read the full words, not only the beginning or the end, and search for the following parts:

  • schul / schule (=school)
  • kind / kinder (= child/children)
  • Gymnasium
  • KiTa

Please keep these 4 words/abbreviations in mind. If you find these, look at the syllables around them, then take the time to scroll through the following lists to evaluate it finally.


Daycares

Not everything with the word "kinder" in it is ineligible, but K-12 are:

  • Kindergarten,
  • Kindertagesstätte (or short: KiTa),
  • Kinderkrippe

Schools

This is a bit confusing, because the literal translation of school is "Schule" .... and we use this word sometimes a bit different. So please double check with the lists below.

Schools often have a namesake person. In that case it's not one single large compound noun, but something with two "-" as delimiters in it. For example this one:

Two delimiters -> school with namesake person.

In this case it's easy, because the word "gymnasium" is always K12.

If ithe marker would have been Carl-Zeiss-Schule it could be primary school, high school or college (all K12) but it could be adult education, too. Adult education stuff is not K12 and therefore eligible. So you need to look at the schools website.


The K-12 school keywords:
  • Vorschule (a special type of daycare, preschool)
  • Grundschule (primary school)
  • Gymnasium (highschool + college)
  • Oberschule, Mittelschule, Realschule, Hauptschule, Gesamtschule (different types of highschools, lots of names because of the federal structure of our education system)
  • Ganztagsschule (can be any type of school; the special thing of them is, that they offer additional activities in the afternoon)
  • Waldorfschule, Montessorischule, Jenaplanschule (K12 schools with alternative, non-autoritarian teaching concepts)
Other words with "Schule":
  • Baumschule (= tree farm )
  • Fahrschule (= driving school)
  • Tanzschule (= dance school / dance studio)
  • Musikschule (music school -> usually not K-12, in very rare cases there are specialized highschools with additional music education, that could be labeled that way)
  • Hochschule (specialized university)
  • Volkshochschule (adult education, there you can upgrade your high school diploma or learn additional languages; our organized community considers these to be eligible)
  • Berufsschule, Berufsfachschule, Fachschule (something like a trade school ..... If you leave the highschool and start vocational education, then it's in most cases a bipartite system: 50% of your job training happens at your future employing business, 50% of the job training happens in lessons in such a type of school. It's not K12 and all pupils there are usually 16+y/o. The opinion of our community: these type of school itself is usually not eligible, but valid candidates like sculptures or murals on the grounds of these school are usually accepted.)
  • Schulzentrum, Schulungszentrum (a place with different kinds of schools nearby; look for additional markers and other keywords to evaluate this .... )
  • Schulamt (not a school per se -> education authority, supervisory school authority)

One confusing thing, that you might encounter, are historical school buildings, that arent school anymore. You won't encounter them as markers, but maybe in the submission texts. Don't be suspicious about that. Even if the buildings have totally different usages now, local people call them still school decades later. In most cases these examples are in very rural area and they are not very large. So this size or even smaller:

(this one was a primary school, and now it's used as a club house of the village9

Post edited by Raachermannl-ING on
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Comments

  • patsufredo-PGOpatsufredo-PGO Posts: 4,112 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How about Stolpersteines?

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,687 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Stolpersteine are sometimes faked. Pls be sure to make a quick Google search "Stolperstein Name" to find out where these are. There are sometimes wikis or newspapers that will give the information.

    Otherwise a Stolperstein is a great wayspot that keeps up the memory of the people that once lived there.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Post about them and other common fake objects is created, but it needs to be approved by Nia because of the pictures in the post xD

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,312 Ambassador
  • patsufredo-PGOpatsufredo-PGO Posts: 4,112 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This need to be filed into a single document.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One thing is still missing ..... two short hints for trail markers ...

    thought I sent in in here, but I'll send it again.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Trail markers

    Hiking trails

    Hiking trails signs in Germany can be of any type, but the most common type is shown in the following picture. Signs in shape of arrows. Most common colors: white letters on green background, or black letters on yellow background.

    The quirk of them: Even if a trail marker is part of a big named trail, they usually don't show the trail name. The words are in most cases only intermediate targets. The trails are indicated by the colorful symbols.

    Conclusion: if a submission doesnt give you a hint about the trails name .... but the trail marker signs have these color code symbols, then consider it to be eligible and don't waste your time on hopeless research attempts.

    (the sign with the owl is for nature preserved area)

    If you might ask why it's this way?

    Most regions have enough hiking trails, that they intersect each other. It's more like a network, but not as much grid square network like for example in the Netherlands. So directional signposts are necessary, and for orientation these symbols do a great job to help stay on your trail, especially since they do not exclusively appear on sign posts. They appear often also with spray chalk on trees or rocks.

    If you see such a symbol on another intresting object, that can be somehow eligible in front of the criteria - then you know it's part of a trail and you should grant a little bonus to these candidates.


    Biking trails

    Lots of the new biking trail markers look like normal traffic signs for bikers.The letter color can be different. In my region it's green, but red and blue is also common.

    So for distuingishing recreational bike trails and boring bike lanes of streets: Again a detail is the hint for a quick evaluation of eligibility: those small additional plaques are the indicators for named trails.


  • OelBoy-PGOOelBoy-PGO Posts: 17 ✭✭

    Regarding "schools." Please be very careful when reviewing to make sure "schools" in the area are *actually* K-12! Since Hochschule and Volksschule are for adults only in 99% of the cases but oftentimes not clearly named as such on Google Maps (for example a Landvolkhochschule [adult education] in my area is simply named "Johannes-Schlömann-Schule" on Maps). This leads to a high number of false rejections and is quite aggravating for submitters. I had to upgrade some wayspots there multiple times because many reviewers seem to ignore additional information and are reluctant to open the provided URLs clarifying schools as non-K-12. I even had Niantic reviewers reject one of the submissions for K-12 reasons which is quite sad tbh.


    Regarding fake utility box submissions. If you are suspicious of a submission (especially if both photos are the same), reverse search the image on Google. In most cases, it was just grabbed from some newspaper article from the early 2000's. Also take a look at the paving. Oftentimes fake submitters take a frontal photograph of some other, actually painted, utility box only to submit the actual box in the additional photograph from a side angle so you cannot see it's unpainted. But there are so many different styles of pavement in Germany, they usually don't find a fitting dummy.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thx for inspiration. Edited my inital post about schools (needs mod approval, so edit not instant there)

  • smantz0rZ-PGOsmantz0rZ-PGO Posts: 344 ✭✭✭✭

    Mein gott @Raachermannl-ING du bist wirklich ein Held, Alter!

    This is one of the most fantastic and thorough posts imaginable.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The keyword "Verein"

    "Verein" has different literal translations. It can be "club", but also "association".

    In most cases, when you will see this keyword, "club" will be the most fitting translation, and you can do fast decisions like: "club" -> socializing criterium fulfilled.

    But try to understand, what the club/association might do. So this keyword could appear for food banks, which are charity associations. These are social things, but not really socializing things .... and the evaluation of eligibility can be complicated. Nethertheless: imho this keyword makes every submission better, because it shows, that something is official and somehow public accessible.


    Special case: gardening clubs

    Garten = garden

    compound nouns as keyword for this, that could appear in map markers or submissions:

    • Gartenanlage, Kleingartenanlage (abbreviation KGA)
    • Kleingartenverein (abbreviation KGV)
    • Schrebergarten, Schrebergärten

    This type of clubs is a German stereotype. So what is it?

    When people live in appartment houses and dont have a garden around there, lots of them nethertheless they want a garden. so they can become member of such a gardening club. the gardening club usually owns a bigger area full of small plots/parcels, and each member can get such garden parcels.

    Example how these look on maps:

    So here a typical gardening club and its parcels, and in comparison to that you can see typical German neighborhoods full of single family homes.

    Things at the parcels are ineligible. It's private stuff. But in these gardening clubs can be different valid wayspot candidates:

    • Welcome signs at the entrances
    • playgrounds (like the wayspot in the example)
    • central club houses

    Most of such gardening clubs have a club house. In that example it's the house right next to the wayspot. Easy to spot, because it's usually a central path through the area, and it's simply the biggest one at the area of the garening club. The bigger paths are usually public accessible. The smaller paths perpendicular to the bigger one shouldnt be entered by foreigners.

  • Sp4ceCourgette-INGSp4ceCourgette-ING Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for all your very qualitative work

    Except for PRP and safety consideration, which looks fancy


    Looks like a clearly local gymnastic to say "accept every candidate bc we don't have street view so let's spread 30€ common amazon stuff on every PRP bc WHO KNOWS, maybe there is a maybe a business here or three 20m2 flat". Nice try

    Maybe everybody can create fake poi on google map too so then it's not a proof within street view or proprer 2nd picture. Did we need to check on google and spend 19 minutes on each candidate to check if it's a PRP or not, if the shop exist, existed, or moved.

    Yes, even for 1000 years city, this candidate looks just PRP risky so 1*

    If i can see something on street view OR IE, with the second photo, i can change my mind. But simply the 2 photos you show, no, definitly 1*.

    In middle or big city, yep, i don't vote 1*, bc building are 2/3/4+ level so looks obvioulsy multiresidental

    All the speech about interpretation about safety pedestrian acces is crazy too. Who care about how difficult is the drive licence ? Did a poi in a middle of a highway is safer in germany (no speed limit in highway right ?) than USA ? What about a poi in Indonesia then ? Even in the 2000 yo city center ?

    Sidewalk is a need, then if there is any path walk, it's not safe. In little city like this, pedestrian can be safe even if there is no sidewalk, because it's pedestrian priority area, so car drive very slowly and pedestrian can walk in the middle of the street. Did we are in this case ? Looks not. We see gutters each side of the road so then looks like rurals sidewalks. with space for people. But not every where on your picture

    Just considerer something on the red house in the photo background. Imagine it's not a PRP. Did you think people are safe in this side of the street ? Did a non german children are safe here ? Did a very educated since 3 years old german child are safe here ? Did Niantic game in this place are played only by German user, with inly very safe german driver on the streets? If there is at least no in this list, it's definitly a non safe pedestrian access.

    Just check the AMA, the FAQ of wayfarer and see what we are talking about. Rules are clear, sometime 3* can be gifted bc looks a good candidate even if it's not easy to know for sure if it's a very good candiate or a 2*, but there is some no-no like PRP and Safe Access for every country, even Europe or 3000 Years Indian City. Vote 1* and respect international guidline about it. We can all play there bc holiday or work or anomaly whatever, and with our bad drive skills and bad school education, can be dangerous for everyone.


    Regards

  • Sp4ceCourgette-INGSp4ceCourgette-ING Posts: 160 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2023

    We drive very badly, drunked and cheesed so it's very dangerous.


    To be serious, this rules are same everywhere, is not a "local particularity" to consider, it's majors Wayfarer guidlines.

    If people make their own business locally with majors guidlines, we, as international, don't have to follow it and have to respect wayfarer guidline.

    Obviously, within Streetview, it's harder to know if the poi looks legit or not, exist or not. Then 2nd photo exist, description exist, wayfarer annotations for review exist so submiter need to use them more than a player who live in area with street view. I already review german sub, and was a pain in the ****, i see some validation appealed some week after i validate it, after 10 minutes review, and i do my best but looks impossible sometime to know if this poi can really exist there, or 200m away, or it's juste a fake. So no need to add PRP risk and Safe Pedestrian access to this nightmare.

    It's same in France, some area just have a 2010 old street view, or 2017 old sat map, bc it's in middle of nowere, and submiter need to write a bit more, make a good 2nd picture, etc

    About safe pedestrian access, it's same in france. No sidewalk, no safe acess. Pedestrian area, looks legit. Something in a side of a national road ? Hell no. People try to bypass rules everywhere, but at final, wayfarer guidline win everytime. Dura lex sed lex.

  • Beneathar-PGOBeneathar-PGO Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    You see, I think you're VERY stingy with the criteria.


    Safe pedestrain access isn't about 1 star or 5 star only.


    In the case of a german village: In most cases, theres a main road in the village with has a sidewalk. Villages who don't have that have little traffic anyways. Side roads of villages are mostly used by the people who live there and often don't need sidewalks to be safe. I agree, those are not as safe as a street with a wide sidewalk, a biker lane and distinguishing barriers in between, but theyre also not reject for safe pedestrian access (wich in the middle of the Highway, or at its side, certainly is) and most likely not even 1*. depending on the surroundings they can be 3* without issues.


    I agree, the post looks a bit funny in this section, but its certainly not as dramatic as you describe.


    About german village centers, I think the creator of the post did a bad job describing what they actually meant.


    German villages most often have "village centers" where there are shops and small businesses. Those look different than most single family homes wich have gardens and so on. A village center is most likely not covered in single family dwellings, but small businesses and multi family homes (as most historic houses where built for multiple families, a farmer and his workers, an artisan and his apprentices...). Its just something to take into consideration before rejecting for "single family home" without actual proof.

    Village centers are pretty easily distinguishable from surrounding single family homes, wich in most cases have gardens around them. Its where the Church is, as a pretty accurate rule of thumb. having something there shouldnt be rejected because of beeing at a single family home by assumption, because it would most likely be a wrong asumption. There are plenty of other reasons to reject and get proof about the surroundings.


    With the stingyness when it comes to "rules are the same everywhere" Indonesia should have gotten little to no new wayspots at all, because i think i saw about 3 sidewalks while reviewing my 600 candidates there but lots of people coexisting with bikes, motorbikes and cars on roads that are wide enough for it. certainly, no 5 Stars for pedestrian access, but 3*, wich is enough. Because if 3* isnt enough (and player can't be bothered to take care of the surrounding ares at all, wich isn't true as the app tells you everytime you open it) most of the world would not have wayspots.


    Another thing is Italy's very narrow streets. You know there are motorcycle driving there? would make 90% of italy "no safe pedestrian access, one star or reject".


    I don't agree with you simply assume the creator of this post didn't want to be helpful, but has malicious intend on getting global reviewers accept everything. I don't agree with that and I don't agree with your sentiment or argument.


    I agree some of the information could have been explained better and in more detail, but then again this is a pretty large posting with a lot of information and i don't expect perfection from people, not even from wayfinders trying to provide help.


    Also: Theres a reason we don't have a reject/accept & yes/no system when reviewing. we have a 5 Star system wich is there to actually review in good faith with grey Areas and not only black and white. Theres not only "safe access, just look on your phone while jogging and chatting" and "danger! Middle of the Autobahn! RUN!" There are many things in between and 2, 3 and 4 star ratings are there for a reason,. You should make use of them. Also makes for a much more healthy mindset in reviewing and building a global community of reviewers.

  • Beneathar-PGOBeneathar-PGO Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    Oh, and theres another thing:


    If reviewing without street view access is too painful for you, maybe don't participate at all. Having Streetview access is not mandatory for having wayspots. And where you don't have Streeview, blurry Areas might occur that you seem to not like, but are in no way shape or form a reason for rejection based on assumption (its in the criteria, look it up!).


    Reviewing without Streetview access is something german reviewers are very well trained at (I admit I sometimes forget streeview even exists when reviewing in germany) and its certainly doable without accepting everything. Its just a little more effort. If you aren't willing to put that in, maybe just review in Metroplitan Areas in the US and skip reviews where you don't have street view. And maybe, just maybe, a global reviewer challenge is not the right place for you. It really doesn't help having the backlog cleared and then immediately refilled because of good wayspots getting rejected on assumptions by people who are unable to review outside of their safe zone or adapt to other cultures and ways of building cities or villages and traverse them safely. Theres a Reason Niantic encourages Wayfinders of Areas where there is a global challenge to provide Info about unique things in their communities that might surprise foreign people.


    Oh... and the criteria are criteria. Not laws. "Dura lex sed lex." seriously? Wayfarer is a fun Hobby, not a thing you need a legal exam for.

  • OelBoy-PGOOelBoy-PGO Posts: 17 ✭✭

    I'm fairly certain our job as Wayfarers is to evaluate submissions using every information we can find. Which includes doing research on the internet. I'm always baffled when people tell me they do 100+ reviews in an hour. But now it makes sense how they reach these numbers. In Germany, due to lack of Street View in most parts, you will have to do some extra research. Find hiking maps, look for lists of landmarks, take a look at the Stolperstein-database, find the homepage of a supposed sports club. That's just things you have to do while reviewing in Germany. If you insist on farming points by just ****-nilly rejecting every submission without Street View or without a sidewalk I strongly advise you to pass on Germany. Your Wayfarer rating may also take a steep dip when reviewing like that because many submissions have been in voting for weeks already with German reviewers voting on them almost exclusively who will most certainly disagree with you on the pedestrian access.

  • Sp4ceCourgette-INGSp4ceCourgette-ING Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Wait the street view car then, you will see how Niantic report work in other part of the world with street view, and you will see too there is only one POV : Niantic POV. We try to apply our local POV, our local law too (it's legal in france to walk alongside many road, even without sidewalk, especially in country side) But we loose all our appeals, and many poi too (christian cross ie).

    Giffrad was clear too about hiking markor, 1 or 2* for sub with no safe pedestrian access, even in city side.


    For now, the non existence of Streetview protect German about some common rejection guidline, as safe pedestrian access or PRP. Some people sometime try to appeal this poi, it's a lot of work. But this will change with streetview pictures.


    About PRP : Just prove it's not. It's not my job to know without any proof of the submiter. My job is to verify the proof, search, compare with all the info i can find on street view, sat view, google, etc. If submiter don't do the job and are too lazy (sometimes i'm, and my sub was fairly rejected bc not clear), it's normal to endorse rejection. Maybe people just keep a bad habits, and inverse the proof of non PRP to a non proof is a PRP so it's good. Things will change too with streetview ;)


    You say "There are plenty of other reasons to reject and get proof about the surroundings." So witch one, if there is no streetview, only very poor quality sat view, bad first and second photo, no info on google maps about business (even, it's not a proof, i can creat easy a poi or move it to a fake loc, many cheater do that and it's a real mess to repair their sabotage)

    So no, just bc a poi is in a little city center, is not a 3*+ voting just bc looks maybe, but not sure, a business bc it's commonly business (or maybe closed business, or maybe just old business as a bakery and now it's a unifamilial home, bc business close in old city center in the middle of nowere country side). It's mind-blowing to change the rules so much bc people don't wanna to go the extra mile when submitting.

    I reject some poi alongside road in Indonesia for the same reason i reject them in Germany, France or Italia. I say, some city center are pedestrian priority area, so well, looks legit. But is not de facto, we can see it with street view. Maybe show me the road sing in second picture, or a link to the city website and i ll use google trad to make my own check. But it's too easy to say "sorry, we don't have street view so accept anything in little city center, even if 50% or more can be PRP or with no safe pedestrian access"

    During years, now depreciated, google street view app give us the posibility to make in 3 minutes a photosphere. I don't see soo much photosphere on poi in Germany last 5 years, so it's a delibarate local choice to don't care at all about proof and then, modify the country common rules to fit with local behavior

    I participate the last 4 challenges, i adapt to local culture but not pass everything bc you know we need to gift poi to local explorer. It's a bad way of thinking internationnal poi network, as a private propriety of each local community. If i need one day to play in this area, i don't wanna play with poi inside a PRP or with no safe pedestrian access, and i don't wanna some honest local player experiment this too. My ratio of sub is 80% validation, my grade is always good during last 8000 review, except sometimes when i miss a point (ie with trail market, i need to upgrade my view to understand what is 1/2/3/4/5*), so stat speak for myself.

    When i say dura led sed lex, i speak about Niantic "law", it's a joke but it's real too. If niantic say you are wrong, even if your local low or local guidline say it's ok, you are wrong and you loose your appeal / poi. Have a non streetview country protect about application of general guidline, until streetview come :)

  • I am using google translate for translating the supporting informations. I am having fun reviewing nominations from, Italy.

  • Beneathar-PGOBeneathar-PGO Posts: 76 ✭✭✭

    In dont agree with you and i don't believe your stats of beeing 80% during 8000 reviews. not even a little bit.


    Please don't try to prove it to me, I actually don't really care. Also 80% would mean you vote in line with your community 80% of the time wich, in turn, needs to review alongside the criteria 100% of the time. You might be a genius, but I have my doubts.


    Nobody said you have to accept everything, but you have to put in some effort before simply rejecting stuff. This is also part of the criteria, as well as having to work without Google Street view if its not there.


    Again, I do not agree with your argument and sentiment. Nobody asked you to blindly accept anything. you're excaggerting a lot, and this doesnt help bringing along your point. It really doesn't. We didnt even say you have to accept something in a village centre because of 20 maybes, just to acknowledge that it might not be what you are used to if you're not from germany and therefore should be looked at more closely and more informed.


    You make it seem as the person trying to provide helpful information here does this only to get their wayspots through, wich is actually pretty rude. This rudeness goes through your whole post and I don't appreciate this in a community wich is about working together to create a fun and engaging play environment.


    Nobody here wants you to accept some temporary amazon items thrown in the middle of the street (just to show you how much you exxagerate and how annoying that is), we just try to provide information for you to review better and have a better time doing so. especially in the last part, you are not helping.

  • Raachermannl-INGRaachermannl-ING Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2023

    Please skip the German Challenge phase.

    When you say "Dura lex sed lex" I give you another Latin law tenet: "In dubio pro reo". Don't judge without enough proof.

    In another post I asked for being more sceptical for common fakes types ..... because of statistical reasons and own expierience as active fake hunter with a fake portal kiII count above thousand, I guess. In that case I showed you things you can do to not only rely on your gut instinct.

    Now I did something way around. I asked for careful votes for special settings. In that case I told you things about local circumstances to help to find an adequate decision. Because low knowledge about local circumstances should lead to careful decisions, not absolutes. A wise Jedi master said that only Sith deal in absolutes, and dealt in an absolute with that statement. And if you deal in absolutes you'll be one of the reasons of pure randomness of wayfarer result mails. This leads submitters to hate. Hate leads to suffering.


    Furthermore .... I reduced this topic to the case of town cores of small historical towns. Showed an example, and had a disclaimer, that everywhere else you can be harsh as usual. Only a small percentage, maybe 5% of Germanys rural towns have such historical narrow streets, and then it's only the core of these towns. So .... why your comparisons about Indonesian cities .. city usually means more than 100k inhabitants (except of the random British definition of a city) ... totally different measures for traffic and pedestrian safety.

    Such narrow streets are always speed reduced zones. Signs are only at the places, where you enter these zones. Sometimes 30km/h, sometimes 20km/h, sometimes only walking speed (or as slow as your car allows). In my example the signs for entering that zone are at least 300m away. So impossible to check for that.

    But nethertheless thx, I'll add this to my list later on as additional reason for pedestrians safety at small old towns ;)


    And if you still think Niantics rules are above everything:

    They are made by Americans. They try(!) to do it in a way, that it fits the whole world. So the rules are evolving. There is already another example in this thread, that didn't fit our circumstances in the past, but it evolved: trail markers.

    There was an old OPR guideline entry, and an AMA. Iirc that's all, that we had back then.

    Candidate: Trail Marker

    Policy: Accept

    Suggested Vote: ★★★★★

    Falls under the criteria of adventurous tourist attractions and encourages walk and exercise.

    Then there was a very old AMA, that said, that trail markers need a trail name to be eligible.

    Earlier in the thread I told you, that most German trail markers dont have a trail name on them, only symbols and intermediate targets. Does that make them ineligible? No, fortunately this AMA is outdated and the wordings concerning trail markers are more open minded now. The Netherlands with their knooppunt-network and GB with their strange poles were also not considered by the old Nia statements.

    And last but not least another example:

    I'm often submitting community notice boards of town governments. With 95% rejection rate. Lots of these boards stay at narrow streets without sidewalks. I can't remember any case with rejection reason "Pedestrian Access", it's always "temporary or seasonal" and "no criteria", but I can't search for former rejection reasons, because I appeal them successfully. So also Niantic staff is able to realize: a place, that a town government considers to be safe for staying there and being distracted while reading the notices there, should be safe for Smombies, too.

  • Sp4ceCourgette-INGSp4ceCourgette-ING Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Bro belive what you want, i say what i say. 80% validate on my sub, 8000 review and still good everytime, except ie when guidline change like trail marker. Deal with it if you are perma bad, and with 30% validate sub, maybe it's bc your are wrong about Nia guidline

    And no need to be a genius to vote like community vote, bc people voting everytime and not just 7 day a year know how to stay in "good" grade and have upgrades / point on medal : Follow the guidline, check sometime what hap on the forum, stay in touch with other reviewer, check the forum / AMA if you hav a doubt. Not just think you are the best and you know better as niantic how they thinked the rules. Obvioulsy, with no streetview, it's easy to fake 50% of the sub, and bc everyone vote everything, it's easy to stay good with non guidline voting. Hopefully, streetview will fix some bad habits and poi network will be cleaner :)

    For now, if a submiter make 0 effort bc locally, reviewer make 0 effort and vote yes just bc maybe it's a good poi, for me, it's not my job to prove FOR the submiter it's a good poi in the guidline. My job is to review proofs of the submiter and compare with what i can find on sat view, streetview, yandex, bing, local trail map, google search, google maps, etc. More i have doubt, more i push far away. But if there is nothing to see, and nothing to check, bc sub are lazy, then, why i need to make their job ? Review without streetview is already hard, to it's an extra time, sometime 10 min or more for this kind of poi. Did the submiter can think 5 minutes for us and give us the best proof pic as they can to give us a mimimum trust of the existence of this poi at this exact place with any rejection criteria reason.

    When i say amazon, i was right, for the price, i don't know, maybe it's 50€ or more, maybe it's 40$ on aliexpress.

    I just spend 50 second to capture a screenshot, use google image reverse search and i find so many common item like this on ebay, Etsy and ... tadam amazon.de

    Exact same object. Compare the both pict (as a good reviewer, looks easy to play at this 7 differences game)

    So did we need to accept every fancy object on maybe PRP maybe not wall ? Just to know about how you think about that.

    Obviouly, the info are near all good except this particular part with gymnastic to not respect guidline. The exemple is just a common amazon object on a maybe/ maybe not PRP wall. Thank you for accepting the criticism on this part because it is off guidline, the example is the typical case of a bad poi, maybe even a poi created just to have a sofa poi, with currently 0 tangible proof on the fact that this house is uniresidential or multiresidential.

    The part about safe pedestrianan acces begins with "What usually is done by local governments to make narrow streets safer:" is just full of contempt and superiorism. What did you expect after that ? Applause ?

  • Sp4ceCourgette-INGSp4ceCourgette-ING Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Ahah, "please, lets us cheat with guidline and have more fake poi". No, i vote, and i follow guidline. Some German do what they what 99% of the time, butduring a challenge like this, the rest of the world will choose their own way.

    If i can judge without enought proof, it's a 1* + PRP or safe access, or any reason i can find to explain to the sub why i say no. Next time, do a better job. It's wayfarer basis. If not, people who vote randomly everything will vote all "maybe maybe not PRP" 5* and then, much more fake poi than legit one will comming with this kind of reviewer.

    I had reject 43% of the Agreeded poi, over +5000 aggrements. I detect too fake poi, fake loc, photoshoped picture, some of this fake or cheat are really good and need deeper investigations, reverse image search, google search to find a proof of a fake, even if it's looks like a 4/5* poi. So thx u to give us common fake in germany to give use tips on it, it's usefull for foreigners.

    But local acceptation of bypassing guid line about rejection rules bc "maybe" it's can be a good poi, who know, looks really out context on this post

    About trail market, maybe update your guidline with this Wayfarer admin 1,5 yo post

    This OPR guidline is maybe 6 or 7 yo, and yes, rules change and evolves. But at this time, 2023 rules are rules, not 2013 rules, not 2017 rules, not 5 years old outdated AMA, or 10 years old bad habits bc it's "like thta since the begening". Do as you wish for the rest of the time but at this time, if a review poi from everywhere in the world, i will follow guidline, not more, not less, even in my own country, in particular in my own country. I wanna good poi network for me and teammates, not 30% fake bc sometime there is a good one. Report and appeal on wayfarer forum is huge waste of time with low chance to prove rejection, in particular since photopshere was harder to make, why spend all this time to clean fake if we just can be serious and filter bad sub

  • Beneathar-PGOBeneathar-PGO Posts: 76 ✭✭✭


    Wait, wait wait... So understood that totally wrong!


    You got 80% approval on submissions? Well that's easy. If I only submit churches, playgrounds and the Brandenburg Gate, i can get to 100% approval with no issues. Try submitting Trailmarkers with as-good-as-possible surrounding pictures, no streetview, no map coverage because its forest, with good supporting information where reviewers tend to not read them because its too much text, while you provide a trail map, the trail symbol, a website of the trail with historic and/or cultural background and so on and we check how long your 80% approval on submission stays. Can't take that seriously. You're not telling me how awesome you are at submitting POI, you're telling me how much you despise taking even a little risk and therefore submit only 100% candidates. And still fail 20% of the time. That's kind of impressive though...


    Also... 8000 Reviews and still just "good"? Wow that's bad. I had to translate the page in the settings to confirm that you're not talking about "Great" Rating. Well, humans take pride in different levels of skill, I guess.


    Whenever I fall down to "Good" rating I certainly have done something very wrong. And I review then as good as I can to get back to "Great" again. So im at "Great" 99% of the time since I use wayfarer. With 60% accordance to the community and maybe even more with the Guidelines. Before you come to conclusions: Reviewing in Wayfarer challenges lets my rating go up usually (bless streetview access, its a good thing when its there). I'm also not your "Bro".


    After clearing that up i have even less reason to believe or follow your "advise".



    How did you find that Pic on Amazon? May I see the Size of the Object? Because I don't really believe it is the same object, as the Object on the Wall is huge and has very different electric candles. You got me? I have doubts. Also: I doubt it took you less than 15 minutes to find this "same" object on Amazon. What did you do? Typing in "German Christmas Decorations" and scroll for an hour until you found something that looks similar, then taking a screenshot where one can't see the size to "prove" your point? Who does that? I mean, of course we have to do our research when reviewing, but this is... overdoing it a little for the case of winning an Argument?

    I see Arguments that this might not be a POI wich are easier to find, as there is a cable from the House window leading to the Object, wich makes me believe its seasonal (doesn't have top be seasonal though, depending on the part of germany, its actually the cable that makes me think that, because having something outside the house be wired like that all year round is highly unusual in germany, while its absolutely common in many other countries.) If I lived where this thing is i might want to check if its there in summer and if not reporting it for not beeing in place anymore. So congrats: You might(!) have found a POI wich is actually seasonal with a lot more effort than needed and maybe not even in the timeframe of 15 minutes. Most likely its in saxony, there all year around, and the house owner did a bad job wiring it, wich isn't my, but the Authorities problem. I wouldnt have rated this 5 Star, because of doubts, i would have given it 3 star and have other people with more knowledge of the surroundings decide. Also: If it were seasonal, theres always time to remove it when its gone. Wich can be easily proven with a picture of the surroundings. I also would have loved to have seen the house entrance on the pic to check how many bells/letterboxes there are. But that might not have been possible. Doesnt mean I'd reject, but another reason to lower the rating a little.


    Anyway...


    You are not wrong, though a bit extreme, when you describe how to review. Reviewing to your best knowledge is a good thing. Knowing how german village centers are built is knowledge you can use. Its not meant to lure you into accepting anything. Theres also a reason wayfarer normally lets people vote locally, so they have more knowledge of things they see (like the Object in Question, wich is very common in germany and not just "mass produced") Knowledge of the Place where you vote is important, and therefore its good that community members provide knowledge here where the whole world reviews in a place they don't know. I think that's awesome and helps a lot of reviewers. And its certainly interesting to get to know more of the place you get to review in. I like this experience a lot and I appreciate the knowledge provided by community members from the local communities (still waiting for Italy and France to join, though).

  • Sp4ceCourgette-INGSp4ceCourgette-ING Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    When i see amazon - aliexpress - common mall stuff, i switch to suspicious mod. Why is a good wayspot and not common stuff we can find everywhere, so every one can have one on his maybe - maybe not PRP wall 😁. You can find fake historic object, or just common christian cross on wall, mozaïc, pikachu painting or whatever you want, if it's looks like small house in a little town with maybe maybe not no safe pedestrian access, looks just 1* voting. Historic stuff is not always, especially in this particular case, a good reason to validate a poi. Remember, rejection rules are over all other, it's a no-no rules. If your sub meet anyone of them, it's 1* voting. That's the guidline.

    I love some old stone christian cross, or celtic stone. But sometimes, it's can't be a poi, bc the sub wasn't good enought or bc it's simply not in the guidline. Is not an insult on any culture, religion, country history to say "sorry, your poi is on a PRP wall, it's common stuff findable on amazon, even if it's care for your community, we won't validate it bc it's violate guidline PRP and don't meet "exploring, meeting, discovering" major validation guidline.

    You say yourself there is lots of fake with this stuff. Juste maybe stop accept it, except big one on public domain of course, or city hall ie but looks wierd to accept everything and clean 90% of them after bc it's fake or on PRP, or without pedestrian access, or not here anymore bc next owner throw it.

    Do you compare people buy easy to buy stuff on amazon an "nobody know, maybe this old stone christian cross 1909 was juste buyed yesterday by a guy wanna a pokerstop" ? So no, i don't reject old big cross in general, i reject some cross bc there is no safe pedestrian access, in middle of nowhere with road around. I reject to some religious stuff on PRP (or maybe not, but who knows ?) wall, except if this looks really a big building with 3/4/5 levels, or on religious center obviously.

    For bug hotel, when you see all the abuse, validate them when they looks common 30$ stuff on amazon looks not in the guidline.

    For graff on giftbox - community book library, they look valid as themself, so choose btw graff on it or the objet. I prefer submit the object. But this kind of stuff are no "art" on your PRP wall or fence, but community useful tools to share thing. I don't care in fact where is come from, someone are made by private guy, some other are made by the local autority, but in any case, if it's on public domain, and usable by everyone, looks legit. It's the perfect bad exemple, bc this giftbox - public shared library are firstly made by citizen.

    Yep, wayfarer is complex, but rules are rules, and the point is not :"all the stuff on a wall is 1*" but "no, i don't care about local gymnastic on the guidline to have more wayspot, prove it's safe and not a PRP, bc i can't see it with streetview, or i'll vote 1* for one of this rejection reason". Manipulate poeple about this major rejection rules, with as bad as possible exemple, looks akward.

    Your last photo is a perfect exemple of good art / local culture stuff, and main part of people, me too, will vote at least 4* if this candidate not meet any rejection rules (ie pedestrian access bc it's in a middle of a round about with no sidewalk)

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