Churches in active cemeteries?
NorthSeaPoet-ING
Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭✭
Apologies if this has been answered before or elsewhere.
The criteria states that places of worship (I.E. Chapels, mosques, etc) are good wayspot nominations, and that we should avoid wayspot nominations that appear to be cemeteries, gravestones, etc, which presumably extends to being in cemeteries as well.
I was wondering what the ruling is around places of worship that are in an active cemetery (one still used for burials)? Do we accept them as they're places of worship or should err more on the side of caution?
Best Answers
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Gendgi-PGO
Posts: 3,354 Ambassador
A chapel (I wouldn't consider it a church) located in a cemetery and used exclusivity for funerals is often a non-denominational building that is available for any faith (or lack of) to use. I would consider them the same as a funeral home and determine them ineligible.
Conversely, a church that hosts weekly worship but has an adjacent cemetery (as many rural churches do) would still be considered eligible.
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NianticCasey-ING
Posts: 538 admin
Hi folks,
Hopping in here with some information posted in another thread. Per the guidelines: Avoid nominations whose real-world locations appear to be cemeteries, burial grounds, or gravestones.
In my opinion, this would extend to buildings (including churches) that appear within cemeteries or burial grounds.
HOWEVER, if the nomination in question is a church with a small cemetery or graveyard attached, this would be allowed so long as the nomination is the church itself.
Answers
The cemetery-gravestone-rule says "avoid" like you said, so it's no prohibition and no K.O.-criterium like school grounds.
In my opinion a church is significant enough and outdoes these concers easily. Churches lure people, whether AR game players or not, so single players wouldn't attract attention. But I'd like to see more automatic actions by Nia there, that try to prevent that groups of players enter graveyards simultanously - player groups for example attract a lot of attention, and the behaviour of groups tends to be way worse than single persons. I see three mechanism that cause crowds:
Graveyards are allowed to have all of those. Nothing is preventing any of them from being used. Most communities actually use graveyards as a place to stock items and for community day. Ingress players do not need access to cemeteries and can ignore them if they feel they do not want to enter. Some ingress agents actually have local curfews for players in cemeteries, that they will report a player if it is close to closing time and still being used by that ingress player. (This is a bad feature with ingress because not everyone has the same freedom or luxury of not working during the day.)
I just had a chapel in a cemetery in my local area accepted. The chapel is undergoing refurbishment at present so clearly isn't being used. Yet it seems to have been an easy thing for people to accept based on its historical value. In this case, the chapel is owned by the local council not by a religious organisation.
I fail to see what criteria a graveyard/cemetery meets, especially one that is currently active for burials. The guidelines do state to avoid them as well, hence why I was asking about places of worship within an active cemetery.
Your comments about Ingress players are untrue, unneeded, and completely irrelevant to the thread topic at hand.
If cemeteries/graveyards have curfews, they're usually set in place by the local authorities and/or any other organisation that owns them, such as a church. I can't see Niantic banning players because of an apparently player-imposed curfew.
Basically graveyards aren't allowed as themselves and graves stent allowed unless famous person. But other than those, things inside graveyards are allowed like war mentions, statues and churches
I'd personally prefer to have a blanket ban.
It's disrespectful to play in a cemetery. Let's not kid ourselves that more than 1% of players are bothered about the information behind the stop/gym etc and just want the poi.
Put them elsewhere.
@nobbynobbs1st-PGO I think if it looks interesting some people do look at the description but if it's like a post office, play park, park entrance they wont care
We have that issue locally. The opposing faction loves to make giant fields covering the entire city and using cemeteries as anchors. If you destroy the field at any time other than right at dusk, they simply go back and retake it and rethrow. In fact often they go in just after dusk. it causes a lot of hard feelings between both sides, something really not good for the community, because both sides routinely report the other and get mad regardless of the outcome.
On the other hand, I enjoy walking in cemeteries! Historically cemeteries used to be what the poor people used before they made public parks. People would go and picnic there and or stroll, and that's why there are so many large monuments, people wanted them to be seen and remembered. So my feelings on pokestops in cemeteries is that I fully support them!
I just have issues when they turn to gyms with raids and or people kicking each other out at midnight, and throwing ingress fields from them for the sake of a durable, but that just feels so disrespectful to be using the cemetery to spite the other team and encourage pushing the boundaries of when it is safe to enter.
To answer the OP, I would approve a church inside a cemetery, and would consider a chapel in a cemetery. I might check the cemetery rules and info to see how much they seem to encourage or discourage visitors.
My question with churches is, If the sign and the church is allowed why do I keep getting marked duplicate?
Because in most case, they are duplicates. Signs of existing Wayspots are not automatically eligible. They must be a significant distance from the Wayspot (ie. out of sight) and be able to meet the eligibility criteria on their own.
It is a place of worship so yes if it's in a cemetery shouldn't affect it. And gravestones are eligible it just says avoid not reject.
There are some cemeteries that are council owned and the church building inside is used strictly for funeral services only, so would that still be deemed a place of worship?
I don't feel that meets the same criteria as a normal church and would find it vastly inappropriate to have it as a Wayspot if only used for funerals.
I know that a lot of funerals generally have that religious tone to them but if a church is used solely for funeral services and is council owned, then surely it must not be consecrated by one particular sect of Christianity? Especially if Methodist, Baptist, CoE, Catholic, and so on clergy can preside over a service in that building.
Then if we take into account that place of worship refers to "a specially designed structure or consecrated space where individuals or a group of people such as a congregation come to perform acts of devotion, veneration, or religious study" then I'm inclined to agree with you that a church building or other type of building that's used exclusively for funeral services wouldn't/shouldn't meet the same criteria as an actual place of worship.
If the church owns it, than it is considered a church to me. If it used regular for funerals and church services are often done at that church for the funerals more than just one ceremony in a year, than it is considered a church to me.
But if the church in the cemetery is exclusively used for funerals and only funerals, surely it can't be deemed a place of worship?
But if it's owned by the local authorities, and used exclusively for funerals, is it still a church?
But in this instance, the one I'm thinking of isn't owned by any church or congregation or denomination of Christianity. It's owned by the local authority and used exclusively for funerals, so technically, it's not a place of worship.
But this one isn't owned by a church, it's owned by a county council.
Also, how would you go about in France with their churches, which are *all* state owned but the upkeep is paid for by the various denominations?
A chapel (I wouldn't consider it a church) located in a cemetery and used exclusivity for funerals is often a non-denominational building that is available for any faith (or lack of) to use. I would consider them the same as a funeral home and determine them ineligible.
Conversely, a church that hosts weekly worship but has an adjacent cemetery (as many rural churches do) would still be considered eligible.
In regards to the first paragraph: Thank you, that was my assumption.
In regards to the second paragraph: Thank you again, I had a feeling that if the church is used for various things aside from funerals it would be acceptable, but didn't want to jump to conclusions.
Hi folks,
Hopping in here with some information posted in another thread. Per the guidelines: Avoid nominations whose real-world locations appear to be cemeteries, burial grounds, or gravestones.
In my opinion, this would extend to buildings (including churches) that appear within cemeteries or burial grounds.
HOWEVER, if the nomination in question is a church with a small cemetery or graveyard attached, this would be allowed so long as the nomination is the church itself.
Casey, is this final clarification or still your opinion? Unverified opinions can have a tremendous effect on what we nominate and approve. Clearly from the back and forth in here, along with other discussions, this really needs to be better published in the guides.
Quoting the criteria,
Avoid nominations whose real-world locations appear to be cemeteries, burial grounds, or gravestones. Gravestones may be accepted, but only if the gravestone is publicly accessible and it belongs to a historical figure or significant community figure.
So in your opinion, why are certain gravestones allowed, but churches are not?
For the life of me, I do not understand why you need to have waypoints in cemeteries.
Have some respect.
On two threads @NianticCasey-ING has stated that their opinion would be to avoid. Use this time to find waypoints somewhere else that doesn't risk showing a complete lack of respect to potentially grieving families.