"vandalism" vs "public art"
GorillaSapiens-ING
Posts: 34 ✭✭✭
Protracted feud on a Facebook wayfarer group, about whether graffitti counted as "public art".
We all understand and agree, per "potentially confusing submissions" guidelines, that common tags (e.g. a work consisting solely of someone's initials) were NOT acceptable.
We differed on whether larger works were acceptable.
One camp believed that the work must be done with the property owner's permission to count as "art", otherwise it was "vandalism" and should therefore be rejected. When pressed, they could find nothing in the guidelines that specifically precludes works done without the property owner's permission. They cited "property owner's rights" in POI that might encourage trespassing. They also argue that allowing "vandalism" encourages vandalism, and "we shouldn't be encouraging that".
The other camp countered that the art was in a public place, therefore trespassing and property owner's rights concerns were not an issue. Such works are common in low income urban areas, where "graffiti" or "street art" is often the ONLY public art that can be found. A work that has been left up for years is not a temporary display. In fact, it's endurance testifies that the owner, while not giving explicit permission when the work was created, is at least giving de-facto permission for the work to exist. No harm is done by having the POI in the game.
There is also an ambiguity argument. It is not always possible to tell just by looking at a work whether or not it was sanctioned by the property owner. Some of the people in the discussion were making the art / vandalism call based solely on their judgement of the quality of the work. Low quality works were judged as "vandalism" therefore bad, while high quality works were judged as "art" therefore good. A low quality work could be called "vandalism" even if it was created by the property owner. There are also clear examples of high quality work ("Banksy") that are done without the property owner's permission, but still left standing after the fact.
So here is my question. "Is VANDALISM, regardless of the artistic quality of the work, enough to merit instant one star rejection? Should all VANDALISM be rejected, regardless of artistic quality?"
(I can't post links here yet but google "is graffiti art or vandalism" in quotes for some hearty reading)
Best Answers
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GorillaSapiens-ING
Posts: 34 ✭✭✭
It has been over a month since I asked this question. In that time, not one person has offered any snippet of Niantic guidance that says explicitly that VANDALISM, regardless of artistic quality, is an immediate 1* rejection. I therefore infer that no such guidance exists.
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GorillaSapiens-ING
Posts: 34 ✭✭✭
Street art that is not just initials is explicitly called out as acceptable. No mention of VANDALISM occurs anywhere in any guidance.
Answers
When judging I try to work out how long it is likely to stay there, if it’s more of a Mural then it’s likely to last longer
This is clear in wayfarer help. In potentially confusing nominations. Difference of Street art versus Graffiti tags.
Graffiti and street art
While spray-painted artworks and murals are acceptable, graffiti tags that just include the graffiti writer's name or initials are ineligible. Additionally, graffiti tags are often regularly removed so they may also be ineligible under the non-permanent criteria.
Eligible: Street Art. "This piece of street art, other informal artworks, and works created with spray paint are eligible so long as they represent cool pieces of art."
Not Eligible. Graffiti Tags. This graffiti tag is just the artist's initials.
@Gabriel0322-PGO I believe you have missed the point of my question. Please re-read what I posted.
I understand the point of your post. But there is clear direction in wayfarer help. Art is art. Doesn't matter who created the art.
Yep, graffiti is partly a permanent vs temporary question as well as an artwork vs vandalism question.
Artwork using spray paint is not ineligible. And large murals that may or may not have the initial permission of the owner are often left in place for years. A common tactic for business owners as well, has been to pay artists to put murals on their walls because it deters others from vandalizing the artwork itself. Not completely, but often more than it would otherwise have.P
When it comes to the quality, tags are a definite no, large murals are eligible. And there's a sliding scale in between.
Simple answer: It depends
@Perringaiden-ING Spray paint art is allowed. It is in wayfarer.
@Gabriel0322-PGO that's what they said. Not Ineligible.
@GearGlider-PGO He should reword so it prevents confusion. It should be "Artwork using spray paint is eligible."
Graffiti and street art
While spray-painted artworks and murals are acceptable, graffiti tags that just include the graffiti writer's name or initials are ineligible. Additionally, graffiti tags are often regularly removed so they may also be ineligible under the non-permanent criteria.
Eligible: Street Art. "This piece of street art, other informal artworks, and works created with spray paint are eligible so long as they represent cool pieces of art."
Not Eligible. Graffiti Tags. This graffiti tag is just the artist's initials.
I look at the general artistic merits of what is being submitted. If it is a tag, "designer letters", scribbles, or doodles with no sense of composition, or looks like something the owner would immediately paint over, then I'm going to reject it. But if it crosses into the realm of art and the property owner is likely to leave it because of it, then I would be more likely to accept it.
You guys can't have this discussion without pictures. Graffiti and tag/vandalism are really open to many opnions.
@Hydraulinski-PGO I hope they fix the issue preventing pictures soon.
@Hydraulinski-PGO I don't even have enough stars here to quote-reply yet. REALLY wish they had carried my level over from the Ingress Forums.
Having pictures though doesn't really help with my question. The question is, does VANDALISM in and of itself, regardless of the art quality, make the submission a "1* reject" ?
@Gabriel0322-PGO you can stop reposting the same snippet from the guidelines, it does NOT answer the question.
In case anyone missed it, the question is
"Is VANDALISM, regardless of the artistic quality of the work, enough to merit instant one star rejection? Should all VANDALISM be rejected, regardless of artistic quality?"
How does the snippet not answer the question? @GorillaSapiens-ING
If you go to help in wayfarer. Click on potentially confusing criteria. It clearly shows pictures of what niantic wants for art versus graffiti. (Graffiti is vandalism.) Art is acceptable by them as it is considered street art.
October 2019 update also has more information on murals. If you are not aware.
Places like schools and private property say that we are to deny all nominations on those properties. Does this precedent extend to the denials that we are supposed to do on "Adult orientated Businesses" (**** clubs, liquor stores)? Example, a mural is painted on the wall of a marijuana shop. Are we to deny the mural because it's on a place that should not be accepted or are we to not worry about what type of business that it's on? The businesses themselves may not meet criteria since they would fall under generic businesses. A mural or candidate not related to the business should be reviewed on its own merit.
January 2020 update also has more information on murals. If you are not aware.
Indoor Wayspots
Niantic deems graffiti tags as a no. Art as a yes. All forms of art are allowed in certain areas.
Six-degrees-of-separation style arguments and bringing up completely unrelated points was a common tactic used by TimerClock.
@TheFarix-ING he changed his name?
@GorillaSapiens-ING how could we know if the final result is art or vandalism? I can buy some sprays and poorly made some "art" on my own wall. Meanwhile a skilled vandal could be passing by and decide to make a beautiful painel on my neighbor wall without authorization. How the reviewers could possible know which one was vandalism?
@Gabriel0322-PGO please stop commenting, you continue to miss the point of the question.
We have all seen and understand those guidelines. This question is specifically about VANDALISM. If your quote does not specifically have the word VANDALISM in it, then it does not answer my question.
Here is the question once again.
"Is VANDALISM, regardless of the artistic quality of the work, enough to merit instant one star rejection? Should all VANDALISM be rejected, regardless of artistic quality?"
@Hydraulinski-PGO I tried to be careful to frame the question in an unbiased way, for the sake of fairness to both sides.
Your question is a very good one, I tried to cover it in my paragraph about "ambiguity argument". The ambiguity argument is that reviewers often simply cannot tell whether they are looking at "sanctioned or permitted art" vs "vandalism".
The only art that is considered to be rejected is Graffiti tags of initials. All other street art is acceptable. Without pictures to show what you are questioning as vandalism, everyone isn't going to be able to say any differently.
Does your vandalism look like initials for someone? If it does than it is a rejection. If it looks like a peace of art with no initials than it is art and allowed. There is no designation for vandalism.
@TheFarix-PGO Sharing to people that updates exist and specific locations that murals are allowed is important. Not six degrees of separation. Original post is about vandalism like it should be defined, well it is. It is only with Graffiti tags. If it looks like a piece of art to some than it is considered street art.
Street Art
https://d2duuy9yo5pldo.cloudfront.net/niantic/4037f555-d072-4e44-bdcc-9da34d7a6408-t.png
Graffiti Tags
https://d2duuy9yo5pldo.cloudfront.net/niantic/0d08daab-23ee-4cef-8c74-b63fcd343cbd-t.png
And I see that Gabriel is using another one of TimerClock's tactics, spam posting.
@TheFarix-PGO Please stay on topic and stop starting drama. Thanks.