Would you reject this as temporary?

Intended name: Szechuan Hill Silk Dragon


Intended description: This ornate and one-of-a-kind piece of embroidered silk artwork, strikingly-beautiful yet easy-to-miss, has embellished the large glass pane above the doorway to Szechuan Hill restaurant for many years.


Supplemental information: A search for "Szechuan Hill" in Drexel Hill on Yelp will show photos of the restaurant exterior from nine years ago with the silk dragon in place, while a search on Google Maps will reveal photos from six years ago that are also consistent. I have lived in Drexel Hill for thirty + years and the dragon has been there as long as I can remember. Szechuan Hill itself was opened in 1991 but unfortunately I can't find any photos from back then.



This silk dragon certainly has artistic merit and has a long history but I'm afraid reviewers will dismiss it as temporary/seasonal.

Comments

  • D0UG1E-PGOD0UG1E-PGO Posts: 12 ✭✭

    Artwork inside of a **** mall restaurant can be tough. They don’t survive very long and they have a bunch of collectors items hung on the walls that do not meet acceptance criteria. It can also be difficult to know if the item is actually there. For example, there is a POI named “Terracotta Warrior” in nearby Bryn Mawr which is a fake but was accepted assuming its presence. Adding a description showing the item’s historical value, as well as a photosphere of the inside of the restaurant, should significantly improve your odds of acceptance.

    Without more information, I would not accept.

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭



    I'm afraid I don't understand - If the artwork is outside the restaurant, how would a photosphere of the inside help? Unfortunately that is not an option as the restaurant has gone 100% take-out only for the pandemic (the second door inside is blocked by a table and a temporary window where the staff hands customers their take-out bags without direct contact).


    I'm also not clear on why the location - a **** mall - should be a point against it. Would you mind clarifying? Is there a rule against artwork in **** malls?


    There's a full gym elsewhere in town which is just a giant red light-up image of a crab that is part of the signage of a chain seafood restaurant / steakhouse. If a two-dimensional plastic corporate image can be a gym then why does this tapestry need a historical appraisal rather than simply being accepted for its aesthetic merit?

  • D0UG1E-PGOD0UG1E-PGO Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited September 2021

    Being in a **** mall is not directly a point against it, but rather, a point that businesses in these locations do not commonly last that long. The big takeaway from what I was getting at is simply, I need more information to make a good decision. You saying it’s one of a kind doesn’t mean anything to me. Explaining how or why you were able to come to that conclusion could. I, as a reviewer, need to know what is so special about the silk artwork. The photosphere is a bonus simply to prove it is there. I have never been to Szechuan Hill. I don’t know if the piece is inside or outside, and this post doesn’t give me full context to decipher that. To the point about the neon crab, not all reviewers have the same expectations. Niantic’s guidelines have many grey areas. Having met some of the reviewers in your cell, I know their expectations are lower and prefer quantity over quality. But they are balanced by reviewers such as myself looking for quality with quantity being a bonus. You as a submitter have to satisfy both of us.

    This may very well be a great submission. Get the right reviewers and it may go through without question. I simply need more information to be able to say accept.

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭

    It's visible in all of the time-stamped photos I've attached, including the one from nine years ago from Yelp (the second photo in my original post). It's also visible from Google Maps street view in real time (the fourth photo). It's in the large glass space right above the door. The intricate details are not very clear from far away due to the beige color scheme, which might make it a bit difficult for reviewers to decipher, but I think this actually serves as a point in its favor because it encourages players to actually walk over to admire it up close.

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭

    I see - Maybe I didn't describe the location of the artwork clearly enough. It's in the large glass pane right above the doorway. The artwork is actually present in all of the photos I've attached, including the one with a timestamp from nine years ago taken from Yelp. It's also visible from Google Maps street view. It's just hard to see the intricate details because the piece itself is monochromatic beige which doesn't lend itself to distanced photographs... But I actually see this as a point in its favor as it encourages players to walk up close to appreciate the full detail.

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited September 2021

    That's fair. What would work to fulfill that? If the piece in question has been there since 1991, which I suspect it has been (I've known the restaurant my whole life and the interior decor hasn't changed very much if at all since my childhood) then it's quite possible the current owners don't even know where it came from - It's changed ownership several times over the years. I doubt it's the only piece of its kind in existence but I don't think it's mass-produced either - The complicated embroidery doesn't appear like something a machine could spit out like a plastic sign or concrete statue (which are things that do often get approved as a Pokestops/portals).

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A newspaper article about the piece, a plaque with artist information... unfortunately the type of evidence that probably doesn't exist. I'm guessing it'll be a longshot.

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Remove the "it really exists, really right here" from your Supplemental information. "Existing" is not an acceptance criteria. If it's visible on streetview, you don't need to spend space trying to prove it really really really exists. It's good to mention yelp (because this is a meeting place), but mostly just talk about the artwork.

    I think it's pretty, but I'm thinking your reviewers thought it is just a curtain. They don't know if it's something rare or common. That's what you're trying to get around (not skeptics to its existence).

  • patsufredo-PGOpatsufredo-PGO Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You said the restaurant has been operated since 1991. Is there something in that restaurant that makes it 'special' and not just a generic Chinese restaurant?

    If so, you may want to nominate the restaurant instead.

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2021

    Honestly, I’ve read this thread three times and I’m still not sure what I’m looking at. In my opinion, this needs much better images and explanation of what it is.

    Post edited by X0bai-PGO on
  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭

    That seems ridiculously unreasonable given the par of way stations I've seen that have actually been approved in the game. Eligibility criteria states "interesting piece of art" (https://pokemongohub.net/post/guide/pokestop-submission-guide/) - It's interesting, it's art, it's the only thing like it in my local area, and it's been there for years. When I see it, I feel a sense of awe. Hand embroidery is an ancient art that takes at least as much effort (and often moreso) as painting a mural.


    Why shouldn't that be good enough? Why do people expect above and beyond what the actual criteria calls for?

  • Eneeoh-PGOEneeoh-PGO Posts: 468 ✭✭✭✭

    Or just keep trying without Upgrading, refining to deal with the spurious rejections until you get the right reviewers who will sail your nomination home.

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, I don't live in your area. So all I have to go on is your photo, your descriptions, and any other evidence you provide. Is it interesting? Is it [unique] art? I genuinely can't tell based solely on what you have presented. It could be original art. Or it could be a mass-produced decoration the restaurant owner bought from a store. I, as someone who has never been to this restaurant, have no way to tell the difference.

    One more note: the official criteria are located on the Wayfarer website: https://wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/new/criteria/eligibility. The criteria on the website you linked to appear to be based on official Niantic criteria, but they are outdated.

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited October 2021

    So it falls under the category of "a great place for exploration."


    Is it interesting? It's interesting to me. Whenever I see it I can't stop staring at it. Is it art? Of course. Embroidery is art. Is it unique? How are you defining unique? "Unique" in the sense of "the only one like it in the entire universe" or "unique" as in "the only thing like it locally?" Because you can find copies of Robert Indiana's "LOVE" statue in cities all around the world but I doubt even you would reject one if it showed up for you to review. If painting Spongebob Squarepants on a mailbox qualifies as unique art then how would a hand-embroidered tapestry *not* be considered unique?


    It's unique because it's the only thing like it in my hometown, I think it adds some much-needed cultural diversity to this place, and I think if more people were made aware of it they would walk over to admire it just like I do.

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You keep saying that this is a hand-embroidered tapestry, but I don't see any actual proof of that. I'm not an art expert; I can't tell just by a photo whether this is what you say it is. The same will likely go for many of the reviewers who are asked to vote on your nomination. That is what I'm trying to get across.

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited October 2021

    So if you don't know what something is then you should be using "skip" and let people who do know what it is vote on it.


    I was so excited to finally reach the stage where I can nominate stuff but now I just find it extremely disappointing because of all the overly-stringent gatekeeping... And I know it's overly-stringent because I'm very flexible with my reviewing (if it meets the bare minimum for qualification, I approve it, and if it very obviously breaks the rules, I reject it) and I have a "Great" rating. But now I have zero desire to even try anymore because the gatekeeping makes it so that anything that isn't a place of worship or a public playground/sports facility needs a graduate-level thesis of proof that nobody even looks at.

  • CipherBlakk-PGOCipherBlakk-PGO Posts: 308 ✭✭✭✭

    I think you've reached the point where you're just trying to nitpick the advice people give you to make it fit your own opinion, when you're the one who asked for the advice in the first place. It's surprising just how many people want to submit things and put so much effort into debating them on the forum, but don't want to devote equal effort to a bit of research or even just writing a more thorough description, which is all we're really asking. It's not asking a lot. It's just asking for the basics. It's up to you to decide how much legwork you want to do, and then you write what you can with what you have. Obviously, more solid facts are always better. If you don't have them, you don't have them.

    Maybe I missed it, but you haven't submitted it yet, right? Don't jump straight to defeat. You have some solid recommendations on what info to try to provide about the silk piece. Have you even talked to the owners? Maybe they have old newspaper clippings. Maybe one of them was curious about it like you were and found some info.

    Just do the best you can to make your case, and then give it a go. Whatever you decide to write, and whatever advice you take or don't take, is entirely on you, but you've reached the point where you need to just go for it. Try to let it sit without an upgrade for a good while first, and then apply one.

    At the end of the day, if you really like what you have and want to showcase something cool for people, that's the entire point of this system. And then you roll the dice and hope you get enough people who see what you see. Sometimes you will and sometimes you won't. And you try again or move on.

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭

    All I'm saying is that a lot of people look for more reasons to reject things than to accept them. Niantic's criteria states "unique" - People are interpretting this to mean "the only one like it in existence in the entire universe" with documented evidence in the form of newspaper articles that nobody will ever look at even if they exist. That is *not* the only definition of "unique" and interpretting the term "unique" in that way is going beyond the actual criteria.

    I just read an article about a Wayspot in Australia called "Nightmare Pikachu" which is actually a piece of mass-produced playground equipment from a Chinese factory one can purchase online. I've also seen plenty of Wayspots based on corporate art like the horse statues in front of P.F. Chang's or a glowing red marquee crab in my hometown which is actually the logo of a local chain restaurant. Even if one doesn't believe that this dragon is truly made by hand or one-of-a-kind, it's still *art* and it's still unique in the sense that there aren't embroidered silk dragons on display anywhere else in my hometown let alone most other places. That alone, combined with the proof of its permanence, should be more than enough to qualify it.

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Of course reviewers look for rejection reasons; rejection reasons override acceptance criteria. That makes rejections the first hurdle to clear.

    ”Unique” literally means “one of a kind.” There are not varying degrees of uniqueness: something is or is not unique, somewhat akin to pregnancy: there is pregnant and there is not pregnant, and nothing in-between.*

    Is this eligible? Maybe. But getting approval is only so much about eligibility, it’s about appealing to the reviewers. You keep commenting about eligibility and keep missing the point that you have a limited number of fields with which to convince people that your subject is worthy. Sometimes you really have to get more out of those fields than others. This is one of those times.

    *I mean, I guess a conceptual event comes between in chronological terms, just not in definitive ones.

  • Eneeoh-PGOEneeoh-PGO Posts: 468 ✭✭✭✭

    Members of The Team have occasionally amplified that ‘unique to the area/recognizable as distinct’ was the criterion.

    If this were not the case, we would have vastly fewer Wayspots, with one field for each sport throughout the known universe.

    If one looked at this silken object and immediately recognized it from another restaurant, import store, or a friend’s home it would fail the ‘uniqueness’ test, just as a corporate art reproduction at Starbucks should fail.

    Reviewers should give three stars for uniqueness if they feel incapable of recognizing that the object is unique to the area. More stars depend upon a higher degree of certainty, fewer stars would signify the belief copies have been sighted previously.

  • 0X00FF00-ING0X00FF00-ING Posts: 737 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2021

    As clarified above, nominations are only meant to be “unique, here”, not “unique, everywhere”. Is a playground the only playground in the world? No. But it’s the only playground here.


    ”Unique” literally means “one of a kind.” There are not varying degrees of uniqueness: something is or is not unique, somewhat akin to pregnancy: there is pregnant and there is not pregnant, and nothing in-between.*

    I’ve had this argument with my brother. He’d whinged about how, since “unique” is defined in a binary way, so many people were incorrectly using the term “most unique”. And that it irritated himself so much that if he heard the term again, his head would explode.

    I paused a beat, looked him right in the eye, and told him, “Out of all the unique things I’ve ever experienced, your head exploding would certainly be the most unique of them all!”

    No matter how language is defined, language is also used colloquially, and changes over time. See also: “literally” vs “figuratively”.

    Post edited by 0X00FF00-ING on
  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭

    Uniqueness is contextual. Robert Indiana's LOVE statues are not one-of-a-kind in the world - There are dozens of them scattered around different cities across the globe. But the fact that there's a LOVE statue in Tokyo or Bogota doesn't make the one in Philadelphia any less iconic for Philadelphians.

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You know what? That’s exactly what this nomination needs, is the word “curtain.” This is not a dragon, this is a decorative curtain, and the reviewer needs to be told what it is.

    Title: Szechuan Hill Dragon Curtain

    Description: This embossed silk dragon has stood watch over the door of Szechuan Hill Chinese Restaurant since its grand opening in 1991.

    Do I think that will pass? No idea. But I do think it has a better shot than not overtly stating exactly what it is.

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As soon as this gets approved, I'm going to nip down to my local takeaway and get a photo of that "Lucky Cat With Waving Paw" they have in the window, thats been there a good few years.......... 😉

  • Shackawick-PGOShackawick-PGO Posts: 26 ✭✭

    It's not a curtain. It doesn't pull. It's fixed in one place in a glass display case above the door.

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