Should the likes be set to zero once worldwide for the sake of fairness?

13

Comments

  • Soliscy13-INGSoliscy13-ING Posts: 4 ✭✭

    Yeah, I also never got why they convoluted this system this much. It seems that likes do not carry over from game to game, but PGO stops and gyms have main photos that depend on the most voted ING photo. I don't think PGO liked photos even count

  • LukeAllStars-INGLukeAllStars-ING Posts: 4,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    @NianticTintino 2 months have passed. Is there any news yet?

    Maybe you can do that before you start the next big synchronization process for Lightship? This is how you solve 2 problems at once.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have another idea - and will explain it in detail in a comment.

    I think it would be good if we could build a system that is not affected by other arbitrary intentions, such as gym guidance, POI swapping, etc.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have another idea - and will explain it in detail in a comment.

    I still think that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a horrible idea. Some of us have worked very hard to upvote the best photos for portals. In our area the problem is a photo troll who goes out of his way to create the worst possible photos that he can get away with on as many portals as he possibly can (certainly hundreds, probably thousands) and then upvotes them with multiple accounts. Why should our hard work on addressing this problem be undone because of a bunch of PoGo players trying to game the system?

    A much better strategy, though one that would take more work, would be for Niantic to identify a pattern that would get rid of the fake likes without too much collateral damage. My first instinct is to remove any likes from accounts lower than L8 that were made after PoGo players figured out this was a viable strategy for forcing gym selection. If they do this they should also remove the like feature for Ingress accounts below that level.

  • LukeAllStars-INGLukeAllStars-ING Posts: 4,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    Maybe a system similar to PGO? Only with access to Wayfarer, you can see/upvote Photos. In PGO, You need to be lvl 38 or higher to do so

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    I would be absolutely satisfied with this solution for the future! But a one-time reset should still take place.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have another idea - and will explain it in detail in a comment.

    @WayfarerMSE-PGO A full reset, or only the ones that were gaming the system? Why do you want to trample on the work of people who have invested in making the games better?

  • GearGlider-INGGearGlider-ING Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021
    No, definitely not

    Have you tried submitting new photos for these portals and have Wayfarer reviewers remove the poor quality ones? Or is this more of a case of someone just wants their name on the portal's cover photo, and they're just not the best photo-taker? I've definetly collaborated with friends to get a few of our photos to be the cover photo for certain wayspots.

    Unrelated to the above comment, there's also the possibility that Niantic would rather keep all the likes for their own internal metrics. Like, more likes means more people interact with or enjoy the IRL POI, and that's data they can use when talking to people interested in lightship. And they might have see people spamming likes on certain POI to make them Gyms as a way to identify these preferred locations (Before they realized people were gaming the systems and they aren't always great locations, and took steps to make it more difficult).

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    If Niantic, as previously suggested by @LukeAllStars-ING , manages that players can only set likes from level X and, accordingly, all likes from accounts that do not meet the requirements are removed, then that would be absolutely sufficient for me. If that is not possible, then I actually want a full reset. I explained my motives in detail in my starting post.

    As I said, here in my city, for example, we have portals with over 15 likes per photo and we don't even have nearly that many players. These are all likes from Pokémon players who manipulate the system without taking the photo quality into account.

  • VladDraco-PGOVladDraco-PGO Posts: 560 ✭✭✭✭
  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have another idea - and will explain it in detail in a comment.

    @GearGlider-ING This is a case where one player goes to portals that already have perfectly good photos and deliberately replaces them with his own bad ones and upvotes them with multiple accounts to make them the main photo. There's no reason to submit additional photos since there are already perfectly good photos. I just don't want to lose all of the effort that we have taken to make the good photos the main ones.

    And this is one instance. In general teams have upvoted the best photo for portals over the years and I don't see a reason to throw that away just because some PoGo players were abusive. Get rid of the abuse without getting rid of the legitimate votes.

  • HankWolfman-PGOHankWolfman-PGO Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, definitely not

    I voted no. Some of the Ingress Agents in my area weren't exactly the best when it came to populating the database (POIs in the wrong place, poor quality photos, etc.). I've tried my best to improve the situation by encouraging people to up vote good pictures (including doing so myself) and submitting location edits to put things where they're meant to be (and updating titles and descriptions where necessary). If all the up votes were wiped out, I'd have to painstakingly go around the town and up vote the photos again, and then get other people on board with doing the same, when I'd honestly rather be using that time to enjoy the games.

    I get that in some locations people were deliberately up voting bad pictures, and I also know that previously, Pokémon Go Trainers would use the system for gym creation and just haphazardly leave likes on certain wayspots without removing them afterwards (seriously, who thought that was a good thing to program it that way?), but especially in the case of people deliberately up voting bad pictures, wiping the slate clean won't really fix that, as they can just come along and do it again.

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    No, definitely not

    Honestly this idea is quite terrible in my opinion for a multitude of reasons.

    First off, it's likely that a full reset of likes would entirely shake up the gym map. Possibly not all but a good chunk of the gyms would be lost and a different stop would become promoted as gym instead, quite potentially in a very bad location for the whole community. We'd be speaking of a change of international scale. That, can't be good from any standards.

    Secondly, what you're basically saying is that we should just allow a second generation of abusers to begin causing havoc. If ikes were reset, it would only be a temporary solution. Nothing, absolutely nothing would stop them or someone else carrying on doing their thing, and possibly choosing our gyms for us while at it. This would fix nothing and only cause a ton of issues.

    I voted absolutely not. It sucks, but this type of profile pic abuse should be dealt with another way, individually, case by case, and absolutely none of it should include reseting the likes, especially not in a global scale jut because there's a **** who gave someone a few gray hairs over a still perfectly valid picture.

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    "First off, it's likely that a full reset of likes would entirely shake up the gym map. Possibly not all but a good chunk of the gyms would be lost and a different stop would become promoted as gym instead, quite potentially in a very bad location for the whole community. We'd be speaking of a change of international scale. That, can't be good from any standards."

    -> That’s what it’s all about! The likes should no longer have any influence. It doesn't matter what you are doing, that is not wanted and abuse of the system!

    "Secondly, what you're basically saying is that we should just allow a second generation of abusers to begin causing havoc. If ikes were reset, it would only be a temporary solution. Nothing, absolutely nothing would stop them or someone else carrying on doing their thing, and possibly choosing our gyms for us while at it. This would fix nothing and only cause a ton of issues."

    -> If there was a minimum level for likes, that would solve the problem in my opinion. And I am absolutely not interested in what happens to any gym. They should be chosen randomly or according to activity, popularity or whatever, but not according to likes that are improperly set and never removed again.

    "I voted absolutely not. It sucks, but this type of profile pic abuse should be dealt with another way, individually, case by case, and absolutely none of it should include reseting the likes, especially not in a global scale jut because there's a **** who gave someone a few gray hairs over a still perfectly valid picture."

    -> Case by case? This affects every wayspot that is a home stop or an Gym! Do you really think Niantic checks them all separately? 🤢

    If you are so reluctant to do a worldwide reset, then I would also be happy with a local reset if necessary.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have another idea - and will explain it in detail in a comment.

    Please remember that removing photo likes would affect games other than Pokemon Go even though the problem of abusive likes to create gyms was caused 100% by Pokemon Go players.

    If they haven't done so already, Niantic should change the gym selection algorithm so that in PoGo photo likes have zero impact on gym creation, and that players do not have another underhanded mechanism by which they can influence which stop becomes a gym. Directly from Niantic: "It has never been an intention to be able to manipulate the in-app map to ensure a certain Wayspot becomes a Gym (or other in-app equivalent). Any attempt to do so is actually considered to be Wayfarer abuse and could result in your Wayfarer account termination."

    Honestly, I think it would be good for PoGo if Niantic re-randomized stops and gyms every 3-6 months. It would add variety and interest to the game, and if a stop or gym wound up in a place that wasn't great it would only be there for a little while.

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    No, definitely not

    I don't think it has been confirmed without a doubt that likes no longer have any effect. In fact, it appears that likes still do have an effect to decide gyms alongside other factors, but likes on Pokemon go especially seem to be the deciding factor, though we need more information on this. Since we don't have that information, it would be highly irresponsible to reset likes and a slap in the face to the entire community.


    Minimum level would help nothing as those people who also have an ingress account can easily climb up the levels and it's very likely most of them already have anyway, so it would only be a temporary solution at most.


    And yes, absolutely, Niantic should fix them individually as per reported as they have been doing so far in everything. That is fair and equal to everyone, and doesn't globally punish innocent parties and make their entire player-base upset by undermining their hard work. Just because there are a few abusive individuals isn't a reason to punish everyone.

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    "I don't think it has been confirmed without a doubt that likes no longer have any effect. In fact, it appears that likes still do have an effect to decide gyms alongside other factors, but likes on Pokemon go especially seem to be the deciding factor, though we need more information on this. Since we don't have that information, it would be highly irresponsible to reset likes and a slap in the face to the entire community."

    -> We don't need any more information about it. It is none of your business. Likes should only determine the best photo and not be used to manipulate gyms. This is abuse!

    "Minimum level would help nothing as those people who also have an ingress account can easily climb up the levels and it's very likely most of them already have anyway, so it would only be a temporary solution at most."

    -> You don't really believe that, do you? That suddenly a whole community of Pokémon players starts playing and leveling Ingress, only with the intention of distributing Likes? Ridiculous! 🤣

    "And yes, absolutely, Niantic should fix them individually as per reported as they have been doing so far in everything. That is fair and equal to everyone, and doesn't globally punish innocent parties and make their entire player-base upset by undermining their hard work. Just because there are a few abusive individuals isn't a reason to punish everyone."

    -> Niantic has not yet fixed anything individually. So stop talking nonsense like that.

    A global reset would also be fair and equal for everyone, because then nobody can exert influence and everything will happen by chance. This is fair!!! The "hard work" you speak of is all abuse and manipulation!!! 🤮

    This is not a punishment. It was never the intention to give players a free choice. This free choice should definitely be withdrawn or take place according to criteria other than likes.

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    I definitely think that is a reasonable suggestion. If the gyms rotated and changed regularly, it would be really fair for everyone and there would be no more manipulation!

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Likes after gyms are creates do not effect gyms at all, it only mattered for gym creation originally but even that appears to have changed.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Imo, it mught be worth having a spell where all the photos are reviewed on wayfarer and people can select


    Ones for removal


    The better picture.



    That way, ineligible pics get removed and till ones won't be as prevalent, and for the most part it will be unbias reviewers picking the best pictures then, rather than someone trying to get their own picture upvoted by their friends/teams/multi accounts

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thats a bad idea, for a start, it would lead to lots of rage with people golfing gyms. For another, it would **** up ex raid eligible gyms and might even, when they return, **** up the ex raids themselves

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    No, definitely not

    Ah I see what deal is now. Since this is your stance that the community having chosen together the best locations for gyms so that they benefit everyone and aren't in locations that wouldn't be beneficial to the community is, somehow, abuse?? with everything else, I doubt you're able to see reason about this so I'm just gonna drop this. Your stances are foolish and fixated, and at this point you're just being mean and arguing for the sake of an argument, nothing progressive is coming out of this.

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    When he was still in his old position, NianticCasey said several times that it is an abuse to determine the Gyms through likes and it is a criminal offense to continue doing so. But you seem so foolish and still take advantage of it.

    The others have already come up with good suggestions on how to solve the problem, but you're just crying about gyms and the community.

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    No, definitely not

    No need to be mean and jump to conlusions. Nobody said anything about me.

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    It wasn't my intention to be mean. But I hope to be able to persuade Niantic to find a solution and to collect good suggestions and then you come and complain that the community then loses their self-chosen gyms (which they should not have chosen themselves) and that it is a punishment for everyone would be and that is not fair. Although it's actually the other way around, it's not fair that the players have any control over it and that there are people who can make a difference. It would be fair if everyone had the same opportunities and everything happened by chance.

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    No, definitely not

    I must point out that the "solutions" you have "gathered" so far aren't comprehensive. In fact, so far it seems to me you've only wanted to argue, and anything you disagree with is wrong and only your view is allowed to exist and everything else needs to be pointed wrong in order to lift your stance being the only correct one. I'm simply pointing out points of view that are being ignored here. Take it or leave it, but ignoring and dismissing the points I've made rather proves to me that finding a solution isn't actually what's going on in here.

  • WayfarerMSE-PGOWayfarerMSE-PGO Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!

    @NianticTintino "Soon" ...

    Since a few months have passed and there is still no official answer, I'm pushing the topic again.

    In the meantime, every Ingress player can finally like photos all over the world without having a key or being there, which of course is a great help. However, I would still ask for a one-time reset of all likes in both games.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 831 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have another idea - and will explain it in detail in a comment.

    Come to think of it, I haven't heard any response.

    Personally, I still believe that we should hurry to build a system where the selection of Pokemon gyms is not arbitrary and where wayspots cannot be swapped.

    Perhaps if the review system for Pokémon GO, Ingress, and Wayfarer were as follows, it wouldn't matter how many likes a photo gets.


    (1) Pokemon gyms are picked up not by the number of photos or likes, but by the wayspot with the highest value for access safety (which we score in our reviews).

    (2) You can only like one of the photos, not a clunky system that allows you to like all of them.

    (3) In the review, all photos appear with the date they were added.


    This should make Jim's arbitrary selection and swapping of wayspots nearly impossible in the system.

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