Morality Question of Location Edits because of Cell Rules
Cowyn2016-PGO
Posts: 548 ✭✭✭✭✭
So in a discord I am on the topic of moving pokestops because of cell rules came up.
Obviously the point of a location edit is to .. gasp... make the location more accurate. The general consensus was any move POI that makes the location less accurate is an attempt to cheat.
But, what about if both locations are perfectly accurate. The topic came up because of a park play structure. Imagine a typical park play structure. The submitter took the picture and submitted from south of play structure. It appeared in Ingress, but was blocked from POGO by cell rules. But it was right oon the border of a cell. If the pin was exact distance but north of structure, it would be a different cell and appear in POGO. ((Same situation couple apply with bigger cell and turn a stop to a gym.)) Or heck if pin was placed dead center in same play structure it might have crossed the border. It was just that on edge...
Further complicating the discussion was the fact the submitter didn't know cell rules and was upset that if he had just walked 15 feet north, it would have appeared in the game he played. He didn't know about the lines or would have submitted it from the north side in first place.
As discussion continued, he was looking for an ingress player to edit/move the portal.
Please understand the context of what I am getting at with the question. This was NOT about malicious location edits to hurt other players, or decrease accuracy. But what's your view of location edits like this?
Comments
I think it’s fine if it’s legitimately accurate, especially the move to the middle of the playground. But it seems like a coin flip at best to get it approved.
What is the purpose of the location edit? "To take advantage of the game proximity rules" alone is not a valid reason from Niantic.
Yea it sucks and those edits just end up bogging down the system and at worse can end up giving people bans who voted in "good faith" to "help" move the Wayspot.
This should be perfectly acceptable. I see no reason why not, as this clearly doesn't violate anything.
This is my opinion only, and some may disagree.
I believe the purpose of edits is solely to correct incorrect information. If the original locations are correct, no edits are required, and the only purpose of the edit is to influence the game map. When reviewing, one does not see which is the original location, and so reviewers will see a choice of two perfectly correct locations. The chances that such an edit will be rejected are, as @X0bai-PGO pointed out, a coin flip.
I would report this as an abusive edit if I knew it was done only to added the Wayspot a specific game. Otherwise, I would reject the edit as "could not be determined".
The point of edits is to accurately reflect the portal/stop location, true, but the point of submitting in the first place is to put a new piece in the game. If you only play pokemon, then you don't care about a portal in ingress (the same way if you only play Ingress, you couldn't care less about a poke stop). So submitting it at a location that only puts it into Ingress, but not Pokemon goes against the point of submitting it in the first place, but to say that editing that point now so it can show up in the game you play is going against the rules contradicts the submitting rule.
Niantic is supposed to be fixing submissions to allow pokemon players to see when an ingress portal is already in the same cell, so the players will know that their stop is in the wrong location, but who knows when this will happen. And even when it does become live, will probably have bugs in it that **** everything up.
Niantic has been perfectly clear in stating that you should not move pins just to influence a specific game. From NianticCasey, December 2020:
The location of the pin should accurately reflect the Wayspot's location in the real-world, regardless of whether it has converted into the desired in-app location or not.
As @TheFarix-PGO said, location changes should only be submitted to make the marker more accurate or if the marker were to be closer to a logical point of discovery representing a larger location (e.g. a welcome sign for a large park).
From the December 2020 AMA:
Since the main goal for Niantic apps, and therefore what the Wayspots should facilitate, is to explore and discover new locations around you, the marker pin should be on top of the object nominated. Submitters can verify the location selected before they submit the nomination but purposely moving the pin to manipulate a specific app’s gameboard is not allowed.
I think it's OK to choose your initial placement carefully based on the proximity rules for your game(s) of choice as long as the pin placement is a correct one for the thing being submitted. I think it is wrong to move an existing pin in order to manipulate the position for one specific game. You can do harm to other games by doing this, and it's also a waste of reviewer resources.
Seems a bit of a split opinion sounds reminiscent of our discord chat.
And while the December AMA says the pin should be on the object, in practice it rarely is. Partly because the games don't clarify that, so the pin is often at the photographers location rather than the object.
Follow up question: For those of you against move. Would moving it directly on top of the play structure, which is technically more accurate be acceptible. Is it just the idea of moving it from maybe 5-8 feet south of structure to 5-8 feet north of structure where you draw the line?
I'm going thru this right now. I just had a stop and the location was accurate because it was in front of it as to abstract emergency services. But some dummy moved it and now it's not impossible in pogo because they don't know cell rules. My location was still accurate But it has now ruined the game for me because I do not play ingress and I'm trying to get someone to move it. I don't think location edits are malicious unless they are obviously right out cheatin. Sometimes you do have that situation in a park where the objects just happened to be clustered but you can get 3 stops out of them for example by putting them in separate cells the location is not inaccurate and it's not malicious because it's not malicious because it's not moved towards anyone's house for example example it doesn't benefit anyone moving them around in the park and last there some extenuous reason but I think because I am going through the same thing that they are OK
I can tell you that if you also submit a description edit to tell people where you want the pin moved, I am going to report it as abuse.
See, moving the pin to the middle of the playground is setting it to a more logical location, so proposed edit serves both purposes: making it available in the current cell rules, and improving the overall location for the map.
What would reporting it do?
@Cowyn2016-PGO Moving a pin that is not on top of the object to be on top of the object is perfectly acceptable. It is acceptable to do that if it will benefit one of the games, and it's also acceptable to do that if it will disadvantage one of the games. If the location is wrong it's always OK to correct it. I draw the line at moving it if it is already on top of the structure.
@TavisSr-PGO Reporting edit abuse would at the very least get you a warning from Niantic, and possibly a more severe punishment. A bunch of people got Wayfarer bans a few months ago because they voted for locations where the editor had submitted both a move request and a description edit that said "pick the pin on the right." That description edit is abuse, and Niantic is not amused by it.
As a reviewer, I always move a misplaced pin to the correct location if I can when reviewing a new submission. If I'm reviewing an edit and both locations are equally correct then I'll often figure out which one is the current location and choose that.
If the move would also be in a correct position, but benefit more than one game, then I say move it, niantic won't care too much (dount they would even consider an abuse claim) as its still correct so won't hurt the integrity of the gameboard, pokemon go players will be happy, most likely your local ingress players won't care much unless it'd used in a spine regularly, pretty much the only people who would care are the people on here who pretty much don't like pokemon go getting a few extra stops
The middle of a playground or the focus of a picture within a playground is not necessarily the correct location at all.
Typically in the U.K. these sorts of areas are fenced off and the natural point of discovery is the gate into it. There are different play areas that are much larger, unfenced, where putting the pin on the object makes sense.
So you have to consider each case carefully. That’s why we have reviewers.
There are several huge assumptions being made in several comments that one way or another involve looking at the cells in order for the reviewer to know whether either as a submission or edit where the pin is placed in relation to those cells. Assumptions are then made as to what lies behind it. This is clearly wrong.
As reviewers we shouldn’t be considering if an edit is the original or not just if we can determine a more accurate/appropriate one. Cannot be determined should just be that and not a reject. Sometimes no streetview or multiple pins makes it impossible. I don’t think we know exactly what happens with these.
There are dilemmas around this because it can be complicated but we shouldn’t leap to the abuse assumption when it could be a close call.
@gazzas89-PGO Scroll up. Niantic has explicitly said that if the pin is in a correct position it should NOT be moved except in certain circumstances. The quote, "location changes should only be submitted to make the marker more accurate or if the marker were to be closer to a logical point of discovery representing a larger location (e.g. a welcome sign for a large park)."
They DO consider it abuse to move it to benefit specific games. I provided two quotes earlier with links to the original comments from Niantic.
And yeah, I get it that people really want to move things to manipulate cells and they'll seize on any excuse to justify it. I think Niantic's position is pretty clear and unambiguous.
The way I see it, the side is most accurate, similarly as with sport fields and similar. Literally on top of a play structure might be a potential hazard. A combination of phone zombie people and sugar rushed ankle-biters doing the zoomies wouldn't make a safe match. They might trip over each other. 😉
Not trying to start conflict, but" SHOULD NOT" isn't the same as "CAN NOT".
The only people who care about cells are Pokémon GO players.
No one else cares about players of other games.
And let me say one more thing.
Attempting to change your location information out in the open is subject to penalty. In severe cases, your account itself will be suspended.
I can't stop certain players from attempting to change their location in secret, even at the risk of being banned.
But in many cases, it is obvious to the reviewer.
And some players are reported as cheating for doing so.
Ingress Player: DONT YOU DARE TO MOVE THAT CHURCH! IT IS MY ANCHOR!
Pokemon Go Player: But it was misplaced i moved it to the right location
Ingress Player: FEEL MY WRATH!
Also:
Pokemon Go Player: The wayspot is big enough and it's split on two cells, I'll place the nomination on this side so it's in a free cell.
Ingress Player reviewing and checking cells: Oh no!, I see that you have placed it that way to get another pokestop. I'll move it to the other side!!! I'm so powerful!!!
Wait what? I see a lot of bad behaviors attributed to Ingress players that I have not seen happen in real life or on the boards here. I don't know why things have to be Ingress vs. Pokemon Go all the time, especially with the more educated reviewers posting here - sure, the general public may have tunnel vision when it comes to their favorite games, but forum members are for the most part better than that. Lots of people here play both primary, several, or all Niantic games.
Ingress players have noted that an edit can cause links to drop off a portal. Links and fields are dynamic things, though, and this would really only impact gameplay if it occurred right before checkpoint or on a permafield anchor, and I hate permafields. If the edit corrects bad data, well, bring it on!
Also, as pointed out, pure Ingress players care little about cell placement. With no Wayfarer+, why would they take the additional step of checking cells for edits or original placements? What examples do you have of Ingress players actually choosing a less correct location just to have a negative effect on Pokemon Go? This is abuse, if so! Manipulating placement to affect a game's map, either in a positive or negative way, is not cool at all.
Can we maybe not immediately point fingers at the "other" game when things don't work out as we wish? There are some great Pokemon Go submitters and reviewers. There are some great Ingress submitters and reviewers. And there are many who are game-neutral, who seek out great locations while exploring their real-life world.
They can say that but they won't act on it. There's something important remember, if both are correct, but one position only benefits ingress and the other benefits ingress and pokemon go, then why shouldn't it be moved, it still benefits ingress but also benefits pokemon go and its still correct, thats a good thing All round, the only people that complain about it are the ingress players on this forum who seem to be snobs with this. If the move was to somewhere that wasn't correct, then yes, it could be considered abuse, but if it's still correct, then people who try and claim thats abuse are just bei g gate keeping snobs
Bring on the disagrees btw, I dont mind if the snobs on here disagree, I'd rather all games benefit rather than have gatekeeping ingress snobs say no (I play ingress before anyone says I'm pogo only)
I don't consider myself a snob, and certainly not an Ingress snob (I play Pokemon Go more on a daily basis than I do Ingress, and these days Pikmin more than either. It's really hard to be a snob when you're walking around planting flowers with little creatures in tiny costumes). But I do disagree with the comment above. As a reviewer, I'm not looking at location based on who benefits - or looking at cell lines or anything of that nature. I'm looking at the location, and the map. If a location is correct, why are these edits proposed? To benefit a game or games, right? And that's considered abuse by Niantic, first and foremost. Yes, there are some Ingress players that are overzealous in rules enforcement. There are some Pokemon Go players that are the same (although they're a smaller percentage of the whole). I don't agree with the name-calling.
If I'm presented with two equally correct locations in an edit, I'm going to choose whichever one makes the most sense or the "cannot find" option. I would not hit the Abuse button, although some cases may fall under that category. This thread started with a question of morality - so while those edits-to-benefit-more-games are technically abuse in a moral and Niantic sense, they're not actionable abuse.
Unless one goes out of their way to look up cell boundaries, how is a reviewer going to know which location will add the Wayspot to Ingress only and which will added it to both Pokemon Go and Ingress? They won't and all the reviewer has to go on is which appears to be the most accurate location or is at the most logical point of discovery. If they cannot determine that, then the reviewer is suppose to select the option stating that the location cannot be determined. If the submitter includes a "statement" via the title or description in order to influance the choice, then that is abuse that should be reported.
In a court of law, intent can be an extremely hard thing to prove. When reviewing, I always try see the best in people (even if yes, there are a lot of bad nominations made) rather than constantly assuming the worst intentions. I suppose I could be considered a rather relaxed and laid back reviewer when compared with some people on this forum, who always seem to be on the edge of their seats trying to find things to nit-pic about.
I believe there is far too much pedantry on this forum and we could afford to be a bit more lenient with people. There is a lot of misinformation floating around, so I'm happy to give people the benefit of the doubt. Unless somebody has explicitly made an description edit tell reviewers "move to this location", I would not mark as abusive.
Remember, sometimes the only reason a reviewer suspects abuse is because they are being abusive themselves (think Wayfarer+, which was never endorsed by Niantic). Thus, one accused of abusive actions could easily point the finger back at the person accusing them of abusive and say something to the effect of "you're no saint either". As such, I am always very careful and try not to needlessly point fingers.
Yes, it does make me uncomfortable when I see people on this forum trying to belittle and mock people who play "the other game". There's a guy who lives on my road who enjoys both Ingress and Pokémon GO. He plays Ingress and the children enjoy going out to catch Pokémon with their father.
In terms of Wayfarer+, wouldn't Niantic consider that abusive to use? If one was using Wayfarer+ to find abuse, I really do not believe they have any right to call others abusive considering Wayfarer+ has never been endorsed by Niantic. Neither have any of the Intel Map overlays.
Seems a mighty hypocritical for somebody doing things which Niantic would consider abusive (e.g. IITC) to then point the finger at others whom they consider to be being abusive. Of course, if Niantic included a cell overlay in Wayfarer by default, it would then be easier for players to spot abuse. But they won't do that.
@gazzas89-PGO writes:
if both are correct, but one position only benefits ingress and the other benefits ingress and pokemon go, then why shouldn't it be moved,
Well, first it shouldn't be moved because Niantic says it shouldn't be moved just to benefit one game.
Second, moving things to improve one game can have negative repercussions in others. IIRC there are four active games right now, each with different placement rules. Improving one game could easily harm a different one.
Third, it shouldn't be moved because it places additional stress on Wayfarer. The system already has way more submissions than it has review capacity for, which means that people can wait six months or more for that new thing they've submitted and they're super excited about. Every minute that someone spends reviewing an abusive cell-boundary move is a minute that they can't spend looking at that cool sculpture that just got added to the town square or the new stuff that's been added in an area that literally has only seven pokestops in the entirety of the country. (I feel the same way about trivial text edits, but that's a topic for a different day.)
I didn't mean to create such venom with this thread. Abusive edits can be done by pokemon go or ingress players trying to make something disappear. This really isn't that.
One thing I think people are overlooking in the context of the thread is the mechanics. A Pokemon Go player can't move a stop that doesn't exist in their game. An Ingress player is required to move the spot. Presumbly the ingress player isn't going to move something that hurts ingress. Unless they were trying to hurt some rival ingress player with an abusive edit, but if that's the case they would attempted so anyway. So this wasn't an attempt by either game to hurt other and didn't need to be PMG vs Ingress thread.
I will say its funny to me that the conversation on this thread to a bigger community is eerly similiar to smaller audience of our discord.
General summary:
Moving a spot to be less accurate: Clearly Abusive
Move a spot to be equally accurate: Borderline Debatable. Asking in edit would be abusive. And does waste reviewer resources
Moving a spot to be more accurate: Acceptable. Even if its a small move to put the pin on object though argubly wastes revier resources.
Did I miss anything?
Great summary @Cowyn2016-PGO !
Can I use it in my local discord too ? Because it's rarely as understandable as your resume !
I will pay you Copyright rights (in pokecoins) ^^