Morality Question of Location Edits because of Cell Rules

Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭

So in a discord I am on the topic of moving pokestops because of cell rules came up.

Obviously the point of a location edit is to .. gasp... make the location more accurate. The general consensus was any move POI that makes the location less accurate is an attempt to cheat.

But, what about if both locations are perfectly accurate. The topic came up because of a park play structure. Imagine a typical park play structure. The submitter took the picture and submitted from south of play structure. It appeared in Ingress, but was blocked from POGO by cell rules. But it was right oon the border of a cell. If the pin was exact distance but north of structure, it would be a different cell and appear in POGO. ((Same situation couple apply with bigger cell and turn a stop to a gym.)) Or heck if pin was placed dead center in same play structure it might have crossed the border. It was just that on edge...

Further complicating the discussion was the fact the submitter didn't know cell rules and was upset that if he had just walked 15 feet north, it would have appeared in the game he played. He didn't know about the lines or would have submitted it from the north side in first place.

As discussion continued, he was looking for an ingress player to edit/move the portal.

Please understand the context of what I am getting at with the question. This was NOT about malicious location edits to hurt other players, or decrease accuracy. But what's your view of location edits like this?

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Comments

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would report this as an abusive edit if I knew it was done only to added the Wayspot a specific game. Otherwise, I would reject the edit as "could not be determined".

  • PsychoX23-INGPsychoX23-ING Posts: 25 ✭✭

    The point of edits is to accurately reflect the portal/stop location, true, but the point of submitting in the first place is to put a new piece in the game. If you only play pokemon, then you don't care about a portal in ingress (the same way if you only play Ingress, you couldn't care less about a poke stop). So submitting it at a location that only puts it into Ingress, but not Pokemon goes against the point of submitting it in the first place, but to say that editing that point now so it can show up in the game you play is going against the rules contradicts the submitting rule.

    Niantic is supposed to be fixing submissions to allow pokemon players to see when an ingress portal is already in the same cell, so the players will know that their stop is in the wrong location, but who knows when this will happen. And even when it does become live, will probably have bugs in it that **** everything up.

  • Cowyn2016-PGOCowyn2016-PGO Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭

    Seems a bit of a split opinion sounds reminiscent of our discord chat.


    And while the December AMA says the pin should be on the object, in practice it rarely is. Partly because the games don't clarify that, so the pin is often at the photographers location rather than the object.


    Follow up question: For those of you against move. Would moving it directly on top of the play structure, which is technically more accurate be acceptible. Is it just the idea of moving it from maybe 5-8 feet south of structure to 5-8 feet north of structure where you draw the line?

  • ArborAndyYT-PGOArborAndyYT-PGO Posts: 79 ✭✭
    edited November 2021

    I'm going thru this right now. I just had a stop and the location was accurate because it was in front of it as to abstract emergency services. But some dummy moved it and now it's not impossible in pogo because they don't know cell rules. My location was still accurate But it has now ruined the game for me because I do not play ingress and I'm trying to get someone to move it. I don't think location edits are malicious unless they are obviously right out cheatin. Sometimes you do have that situation in a park where the objects just happened to be clustered but you can get 3 stops out of them for example by putting them in separate cells the location is not inaccurate and it's not malicious because it's not malicious because it's not moved towards anyone's house for example example it doesn't benefit anyone moving them around in the park and last there some extenuous reason but I think because I am going through the same thing that they are OK

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cowyn2016-PGO Moving a pin that is not on top of the object to be on top of the object is perfectly acceptable. It is acceptable to do that if it will benefit one of the games, and it's also acceptable to do that if it will disadvantage one of the games. If the location is wrong it's always OK to correct it. I draw the line at moving it if it is already on top of the structure.

    @TavisSr-PGO Reporting edit abuse would at the very least get you a warning from Niantic, and possibly a more severe punishment. A bunch of people got Wayfarer bans a few months ago because they voted for locations where the editor had submitted both a move request and a description edit that said "pick the pin on the right." That description edit is abuse, and Niantic is not amused by it.


    As a reviewer, I always move a misplaced pin to the correct location if I can when reviewing a new submission. If I'm reviewing an edit and both locations are equally correct then I'll often figure out which one is the current location and choose that.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the move would also be in a correct position, but benefit more than one game, then I say move it, niantic won't care too much (dount they would even consider an abuse claim) as its still correct so won't hurt the integrity of the gameboard, pokemon go players will be happy, most likely your local ingress players won't care much unless it'd used in a spine regularly, pretty much the only people who would care are the people on here who pretty much don't like pokemon go getting a few extra stops

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 836 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The middle of a playground or the focus of a picture within a playground is not necessarily the correct location at all.

    Typically in the U.K. these sorts of areas are fenced off and the natural point of discovery is the gate into it. There are different play areas that are much larger, unfenced, where putting the pin on the object makes sense.

    So you have to consider each case carefully. That’s why we have reviewers.

    There are several huge assumptions being made in several comments that one way or another involve looking at the cells in order for the reviewer to know whether either as a submission or edit where the pin is placed in relation to those cells. Assumptions are then made as to what lies behind it. This is clearly wrong.

    As reviewers we shouldn’t be considering if an edit is the original or not just if we can determine a more accurate/appropriate one. Cannot be determined should just be that and not a reject. Sometimes no streetview or multiple pins makes it impossible. I don’t think we know exactly what happens with these.

    There are dilemmas around this because it can be complicated but we shouldn’t leap to the abuse assumption when it could be a close call.

  • feliscybernicus-PGOfeliscybernicus-PGO Posts: 90 ✭✭✭

    The way I see it, the side is most accurate, similarly as with sport fields and similar. Literally on top of a play structure might be a potential hazard. A combination of phone zombie people and sugar rushed ankle-biters doing the zoomies wouldn't make a safe match. They might trip over each other. 😉


  • Not trying to start conflict, but" SHOULD NOT" isn't the same as "CAN NOT".

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They can say that but they won't act on it. There's something important remember, if both are correct, but one position only benefits ingress and the other benefits ingress and pokemon go, then why shouldn't it be moved, it still benefits ingress but also benefits pokemon go and its still correct, thats a good thing All round, the only people that complain about it are the ingress players on this forum who seem to be snobs with this. If the move was to somewhere that wasn't correct, then yes, it could be considered abuse, but if it's still correct, then people who try and claim thats abuse are just bei g gate keeping snobs


    Bring on the disagrees btw, I dont mind if the snobs on here disagree, I'd rather all games benefit rather than have gatekeeping ingress snobs say no (I play ingress before anyone says I'm pogo only)

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't consider myself a snob, and certainly not an Ingress snob (I play Pokemon Go more on a daily basis than I do Ingress, and these days Pikmin more than either. It's really hard to be a snob when you're walking around planting flowers with little creatures in tiny costumes). But I do disagree with the comment above. As a reviewer, I'm not looking at location based on who benefits - or looking at cell lines or anything of that nature. I'm looking at the location, and the map. If a location is correct, why are these edits proposed? To benefit a game or games, right? And that's considered abuse by Niantic, first and foremost. Yes, there are some Ingress players that are overzealous in rules enforcement. There are some Pokemon Go players that are the same (although they're a smaller percentage of the whole). I don't agree with the name-calling.

    If I'm presented with two equally correct locations in an edit, I'm going to choose whichever one makes the most sense or the "cannot find" option. I would not hit the Abuse button, although some cases may fall under that category. This thread started with a question of morality - so while those edits-to-benefit-more-games are technically abuse in a moral and Niantic sense, they're not actionable abuse.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    In a court of law, intent can be an extremely hard thing to prove. When reviewing, I always try see the best in people (even if yes, there are a lot of bad nominations made) rather than constantly assuming the worst intentions. I suppose I could be considered a rather relaxed and laid back reviewer when compared with some people on this forum, who always seem to be on the edge of their seats trying to find things to nit-pic about.

    I believe there is far too much pedantry on this forum and we could afford to be a bit more lenient with people. There is a lot of misinformation floating around, so I'm happy to give people the benefit of the doubt. Unless somebody has explicitly made an description edit tell reviewers "move to this location", I would not mark as abusive.

    Remember, sometimes the only reason a reviewer suspects abuse is because they are being abusive themselves (think Wayfarer+, which was never endorsed by Niantic). Thus, one accused of abusive actions could easily point the finger back at the person accusing them of abusive and say something to the effect of "you're no saint either". As such, I am always very careful and try not to needlessly point fingers.

  • AScarletSabre-PGOAScarletSabre-PGO Posts: 741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, it does make me uncomfortable when I see people on this forum trying to belittle and mock people who play "the other game". There's a guy who lives on my road who enjoys both Ingress and Pokémon GO. He plays Ingress and the children enjoy going out to catch Pokémon with their father.

    In terms of Wayfarer+, wouldn't Niantic consider that abusive to use? If one was using Wayfarer+ to find abuse, I really do not believe they have any right to call others abusive considering Wayfarer+ has never been endorsed by Niantic. Neither have any of the Intel Map overlays.

    Seems a mighty hypocritical for somebody doing things which Niantic would consider abusive (e.g. IITC) to then point the finger at others whom they consider to be being abusive. Of course, if Niantic included a cell overlay in Wayfarer by default, it would then be easier for players to spot abuse. But they won't do that.

  • VladDraco-PGOVladDraco-PGO Posts: 544 ✭✭✭✭

    Great summary @Cowyn2016-PGO !

    Can I use it in my local discord too ? Because it's rarely as understandable as your resume !

    I will pay you Copyright rights (in pokecoins) ^^

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