Going to need 30 appeals per month not 1

2

Comments

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hosette-ING

    I agree with your statement that "appeals to Niantic of rejected POIs are designed to be carefully selected.


    But, as it stands, there are clearly too many people appealing POIs of subtle quality that have been rejected by the usual nominations, as you mention.

    Especially in Japan, as far as social networking sites are concerned, Pokémon trainers almost always fall under this situation.

    This seems to be out of their control as it is human nature to believe that there is gold out there that they believe in.


    This is probably why normal operations in the team and the operative of this forum are clearly delayed since 2022.

    This is unfortunate as it is a situation that is detrimental to Wayfarer's overall interests.

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i dont know from which country you are contributing wayspots, but here in germany there is too much abuse and revenge acts going on. basicly everything gets rejected, upgrading something is useless.

    If we are not able to appeal in a timely manner, we will be all dead when the last appeal has been reviewed.

    We DO need more than 1 appeal a month. If Niantic isnt able to give us more than 1 appeal a month, it is useless to use wayfarer anymore. The German community already has said that they will not continue with this anymore.

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes i would Love that Niantic resolves These Things, But Niantic has Not Been able to do anything.

    How would you tackle abuse and Reviewer Wars?

    Niantic would have to identify the Accounts, Ban them and educate the Person behind the Account and make sure These ignorant Low lifes will Not continue using one of their 13 Accounts anymore doing mischief and abuse.

    Is this a solution?

    Wuldnt it be easy for niantic to Just ignore the Situation?

    This wont Change.

  • ZinkyZonk-INGZinkyZonk-ING Posts: 222 ✭✭✭

    Just had a park shelter rejected.

    Got a bunch of patronising folk here.

    Done

    This beautiful poi pic is staying on my camera.

    Such pretty reflection. But it's ok. Niantic doesn't want it.

    Thanks for the assist to quit. I mean that sincerely it's really hard to quit an autistic special interest. But enough shade from peers helps a lot.

    So many dislikes on my comments. So much you have to do it better. So much I could do it better. So much disregard for my actual skill at this. So much disregard for my time and my contributions. So little understanding how I still desire so very very much to catalogue every poi in my area and correct all the errors. So little understanding of the scope of the work to be done.

    So rude with the dislikes... I never dislike things unless someone is being really rude. If I feel compelled to disagree I actually use words.

    Wayfarer is complete ****. This forum is just terrible.

    And I have been a true idiot for spending any time nominating anything.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 1,907 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rodensteiner-ING I'm not sure if Niantic has been unable to address the issues of botnets and collusive reviewing or if they just haven't tried very hard. My money is on the latter.

    Computers are really good at recognizing normal and outlier behavior patterns. I did some relatively simple work in this area around a decade ago when I did some deep dive research into what appeared to be a bug in my company's online ad technology... when I chased it to its logical conclusion I had become the company's ad fraud expert. Based on what I learned from that I built a hand-crafted fraud detection tool and then later started throwing some simple machine learning at the problem although I left the company before I got too far down that path.

    I'm a software engineer not a data scientist but I know that machine learning technology has progressed quite a lot in the last decade. I think it would be relatively easy for Niantic to detect abnormal collaborations between accounts... this seems like a new college grad level problem, not a team of PhDs. I don't think the corporate will is there, though. Both Ingress and PoGo have rampant problems with spoofing and multi-accounting and Niantic isn't doing (anything/enough) to stop them effectively. Wayfarer abuse is a similar problem.

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This isnt rocket science. It is just a Database. If Niantic would, they could hire me and you doing a little sleuth work.

  • VladDraco-PGOVladDraco-PGO Posts: 555 ✭✭✭✭

    To go back to the initial topic, I'm 100% with @ElwynGreygoose-ING view on the subject.


    We don't need 30 appeals a month, 1 is ok.


    In mine submissions which haven't go through, only very few needed appeal, but most of them (if it's not all) needed improvement.


    As the many examples shown in this topic seems to prove, for a lot of people the normal process seems to be : 1) Submit mediocre nomination 2) waiting 6 months it's been rejected 3) Appeal the rejection

    NO !

    A normal process should be improvement and resubmission not blind appeal of anything you have had rejected.


    So 1 appeal a month is enough, and 29 improvement and resubmission if you want, but not 30 appeals.

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    this would be okay if the turnaround would be like 7 Days.

    Currently we have areas where Contributions are in 12+ month. Some people would reach their pension time before their contribition was reviewd.

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Appeals should be earned. For every 10 nominations you have approved, you get 1 appeal. You should be able to collect them up, and apply them when and where you want. No matter how many in a month.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,797 Ambassador

    That wouldn't work for places like Germany that are experiencing mass rejections. Or areas that don't have much left to nominate.

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many German nominators had well over 100 accepted nominations long before the "mass rejections" (or appeals) started.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,797 Ambassador

    So you're saying 1appeal per 10 approvals over a lifetime of submissions? I missed that specific nuance. That might address some people in the Germany scenario, but not a new submitter there starting fresh.

    Or, a new submitter in my region may want to nominate their favorite restaurant (notoriously difficult to get through) and would struggle to find 10 other candidates to pass, simply because there's less still out here. They may have to resort to nominating even more risky or outright ineligible candidates just to "earn" their appeal. Your "10 approvals to earn an appeal" would work perfect for me (over 600 approvals). I don't need nor want 60 appeals. Somebody fresh would just about have to leave town to find 10 eligible candidates (not to mention earn upgrades on each). Same problem for a small town, too. Finding 10 eligible candidates just to appeal 1 isn't feasible for everyone.

  • FurtadoV-PGOFurtadoV-PGO Posts: 35 ✭✭

    You have suffered what we call "the upgrade's spell" ! Unfortunatelly , I don't know why, when a contribution is reviewed by the "help" of an upgrade, looks like it has a greater chance of been rejected by the Wayfarer Community. And, I totally agree with you. Despite of any arguments people are giving, nowadays it has become extremely hard to get high quality nominations to get accepted. Sometimes , I think a lot of reviewers just **** up the process rejecting everything they see...

  • ZinkyZonk-INGZinkyZonk-ING Posts: 222 ✭✭✭

    ha ha ha ... yes upgrades are a great risk ... hahahah. .... though I think it's also a bit of physchology ... you are so keen for them to be accepted ....it hurts more when they get decided WRONG!!!! lol. Of my 30 upgrades - yeah only 5000 reviews - I have 10 rejections. so it's not always a complete curse.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 1,907 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My current streak of success with upgrades is 21 in a row. The two before that were the same submission that was hard for reviewers to process so I had to refine my technique and provide better information.

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This problem does not seem to be a problem with the appeal system, but with the review and nomination system.

    There are many possible ways to do this.

    Perhaps one of the first items on the agenda for the wayfarer team and ambassadors to discuss will be this.


    However, if we were to try to solve these issues using the appeal system, Niantic would probably discontinue the appeal system before this is done.

    In fact, new applications are currently being stopped due to a bug, and even if the bug is fixed, the window could even remain closed forever if they decide to flood the system.

    Just as it once stopped accepting nominations for about two years, starting in September 2015.

    ( It should have been reestablished by staff with experience in this area at that time. But since they had already left, no one could have figured it out.)

  • tp235-INGtp235-ING Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I too am mostly approved with or without upgrades.

    On the rare occasion that they are not approved for some odd reason, they are usually flawed.

  • ZinkyZonk-INGZinkyZonk-ING Posts: 222 ✭✭✭

    @Hosette-ING you have only high value pois in your submit queue of course you would have a high success streak. Run of the mill POIs are still worthy of joining the database. Niantic games aren't just for adults living in inner cities with high income and high mobility. (If recall correctly you listed 4 countries you have been in recently) .... they are for poor single mums with kids stuck in the suburbs too.

    My radius is 6 km over a mainly single residental zoned suburb land. I know every POI and every potential POI with in that 6km. They aren't high art but park shelters and cricket pitches are still worthy.

    Only 6 potential POIs I have I nominated in the last year were debatable pois. Everything else was a park shelter, bushcare sign, a footbridge, a cricket pitch, - all of these have multiple examples of being existing pois - it's not rocket science to say yes that's an accept next review please.

    a) 2 emergancy call points a long a urban wetland trail connecting housing and public transport - I believe these to be in the same function of foot bridge or a trail marker along a trail. Some reviewers came back with obstructs emergency services snort I was hoping with the emergency call points - Niantic could make a decision - indentifible location on a trail. Good local knowledge to know. 5% chance but still think they would be cool to have - especially as you have to get out of your car to get to them.

    b) 2 adopt a spot signs - alerting the broader community to a community group that is maintaining the park keeping it free from rubbish ... is too plain likely for most. 5% but for my pogo folk I thought I would give them a go.

    c) 1 the lighting feature mentioned above. 50% looked cool while I was driving past

    d) 1 another signed gate on a large dog park that already has a sign as poi. .... the dog park thing .... we have some really big dog parks in Brisbane. They have multiple gates with signs on each entry. I was hoping Niantic would agree with my reasoning to go with the sign at any gate could also become a POI despite another gate already having a POI on it. In the case I tried with my nomination the dog park is 9954m2 that's a lot of space .... the council considers the gate seperate enought from the other gates to have a sign .... maybe I can convince Niantic to follow the councils lead each signed dog park entrance could be a poi.

    I have drilled too deep. ....rising back up to the main point.

    @Hosette-ING and many people on this forum need to be aware that Niantic games are for everyone and all places where people live.

    Cricket pitches and footbridges aren't fancy but they are great POIs all the same.

  • ZinkyZonk-INGZinkyZonk-ING Posts: 222 ✭✭✭

    ok .... I also said that too that upgrades weren't necessarily a curse - when I responded to FurtadoV

    You do come across as the "Nominator did it wrong" when clearly that is not the experience of so many long term nominators.

    There was nothing wrong with any of my nominations aside from the 6 pois that I wanted to test with the community and niantic for eligibility.

    Everything else that was rejected or assigned falsely as a duplicate should have been accepted. They weren't a gradient choice prospect like a local resturant. They were acceptable pois clearly photographed and visible on sat view (or features of the support pic were readily seen on sat view).

    Reviewers should do their job properly.

  • ElwynGreygoose-INGElwynGreygoose-ING Posts: 244 ✭✭✭✭


    One feature I would love is a set of community-contributed guides. "How to nominate a church", for example. There could be several on the same subject, contributed by different people, because of course there is no one "right" answer. Anyway, reviewers should select the category when they reject, and if the category was 'church', the submitter would get a link to those guides.

    Alternatively, it would be good to have meaningful rejection reasons. One that I would use many times a day is "Don't plagiarise your description."

  • Duiomar-PGODuiomar-PGO Posts: 256 ✭✭✭✭

    The last thing we need is another mechanic which increases inequitable outcomes in the game based on geography. It's already bad enough that some areas become complete dead zones when everyone quits, turning the whole thing into a vicious cycle.

  • Roli112-PGORoli112-PGO Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see why you like to downplay real issues people have to deal with. You very much like to preach "what you experience doesn't affect everybody" maybe you should consider that not everybody gets to have 21 acceptances in a row... so far out of my 25 appeals 2 have been overturned by niantic, the other 23 still pending... There are very many examples of successful appeals... Niantic didn't need refined technique or better information. Bad rejections happen, please don't down play them.

  • Juleswtal-PGOJuleswtal-PGO Posts: 32 ✭✭

    30 per month is definitely too much. By putting effort in titles, pictures and descriptions, many rejections can be prevented.

    I also agree though, that one per month is not enough. If, for whatever reason, some of your weekly nominations get rejected, it would take you years to appeal all of them, and by that time you'd have hundreds of new nominations and possible rejections.

    I can think of two better options:

    (a) you have one appeal per month

    (b) you have a new appeal once the old appeal has been reviewed

    The second one, of course, would require Niantic to look into appeals regularly and quickly, and not in the way it has been done until now.

  • ZinkyZonk-INGZinkyZonk-ING Posts: 222 ✭✭✭

    I return to this thread in a flipping rage.


    This was approved in my area


    This is a joke. It's a housing estate sign.

    Yeah a bit of concrete with the name of the housing estate on it.

    So social.... let's meet by the sign that says private property.

    Such motivation to exercise...the sign is on a slant. We can slide down that surely


    Such motivation to explore .... Let's go down this narrow street to discover a private property housing estate. Oh joy just let's do that!




    Wayfarer needs to be euthanized not improved.

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