How can Niantic motivate people to submit Lightship-only POIs?
Recently there has been discussion in the community about “Lightship-only” POIs (i.e. POIs which are accepted but do not populate Pokémon Go or Ingress due to proximity limitations/inclusion rules).
A common feeling by submitters is they won’t bother submitting POIs if they know those POIs with become Lightship-only. Lightship-only POIs cannot be seen or interacted with by users, provide no gameplay benefits, and for almost all intents and purposes don’t exist.
If submitters are choosing not to submit Lightship-only Wayspots then that means that potentially high-quality POIs are not being added to the database, which seems contrary to the Wayfarer mission.
I am curious whether this issue has been discussed within the Wayfarer team, and whether anything is being planned to increase the motivation of submitters to submit more POIs — even if those POIs will be Lightship-only.
I am super curious about whether there could possibly be any worthwhile motivation for a Lightship-only POI, outside of being paid for it.
The database, in and of itself, has zero value. There is literally no point to its existence, from a user standpoint, unless the information is used in a game of some kind. It's irrelevant whether high quality POIs are missed if they are not used or, at minimum, accessible to the people stocking the database (us). The Wayfarer mission also has no relevance if the data is not used. Wayfarer is only granted relevance through the support it provides to the games people use.
Generally speaking, you don't collect data just for the sake of collecting it. You must have a purpose for it; otherwise you are wasting resources for nothing. Niantic may very well profit off this data, literally at our expense, so it could have value to them. However, we're not here to work for a database that collects dust doing nothing, and we're not here to make Niantic money for nothing. We must get something out of it; for now what we get is improvement to games we use.
Without that, there is literally nothing. Of course, you might derive personal satisfaction getting your POIs accepted to an inaccessible aether, and that's fine if you enjoy that. Personally, I need my work to result in something more concrete. If there's not at least a chance I will be improving my game of choice, I'm simply not spending my limited time and energy to create a POI without compensation.
If we got more spawns in Pokémon maybe. Now sometimes I see something really cool that I think it should at least be in ingress even if I don't play it.
I dint know of uts fully true or not, but the prevailing theory is a portal in ingress thay isn't in pogo will create a spawn point or increase spawns. I have tried it myself and it did seem to do it, but needs to be during one of those massive migrations (not the season change, but when they do loads of different spawn point changes, usually 6 months months a year)
Yeah but that works with lightship? I never heard anyone talk about it.
Interesting question since people started submitting POI within the 20 metre range while they were appearing in games but now don't since that was fixed
What should I do if only the lightship exists and the position is wrong? In the past, I was asked to fix it with Ingress, but now I can't even do that.
If the position is incorrect, it cannot be corrected at this stage.
However, there were plans for a Wayfarer native app as part of the roadmap, so it is expected that the Wayfarer app will allow correction in the future.
I do think these 2 questions are tied so I will repost what I said in the related one.
I personally really like the idea of adding in the currently unused POI as purely aesthetic shapes into the games with the highest proportion of submitters. Something like berry bushes or grass in pogo that could even be a floor pattern instead of 3D. This allows us to see, click on, and edit POI that are missing info or in the wrong place without affecting the balance of game play.
So, this last summer I found a huge mural on the back of a local building, put up that year as part of a municipal beautification campaign. I submitted it as a POI just because it’s worth it, and eventually it was approved. Well, next thing I know, the flower shop that was the POI in that cell closed. I reported it as permanently closed, and (contrary to my expectations) the report was acted upon, the flower shop POI was removed, and the mural became an active stop in that cell. So I would suggest first that making the process of removing outdated waypoints easier would help serve the purpose of adding higher-quality ones to the map.
Additionally, in the last year we have seen in both major Niantic games that inclusion rules sometimes break down, so I suggest that even spots that are Lightship-only for now could well see their way into a game, possibly by error, possibly by design. I also suggest that Niantic has actually done relatively little research into what makes effective gameplay* and there is a reasonable chance that they will change the rules in one or more games**, or reset the map at some point to prioritize higher-quality submissions over lower-quality, older submissions (such as a park pavilion over a memorial bench).
So, it’s a little bit speculative, but not unreasonable, to suggest that Lightship-only POIs might be a long play, but may well pay off.
*I became convinced of this when I read their justification of the Pogo spin distance last summer, which consisted of looking at pictures, and not actual playtesting.
**The more Ingress players complain about the 20m rule, the more likely they are to get s17 cells.
"Lightship-Only" POIs could be brought into games for special events. Like, only for First Saturday, or Community Day, or anniversary day. Visiting them would increment gamers' "unique visits" counters, and they could have a special feature, like double output.
The next day (or weekend or week), the normal rules could be re-applied, and the "Lightship-only" POIs disappear again, until the next special event.
There is a lightship program for developers. For niantic the database brings money. Those developers could also use the poi only in lightshit.
I would love to be able to at least view and share these sorts of locations in-game with friends. Pikmin Bloom already does this to an extent, with postcards seeming to draw from all Lightship POIs despite much fewer locations on the in-game map. My local area, for example, has a wealth of art, but a lot of it is blocked by things that are far less interesting or fun to share (like simple plaques vs a beautiful mural). I know a lot of my local Pokémon GO community places a great deal of value on sending gifts that they think are pretty or cool and actively avoid “ugly” gifts. Even just being able to share gifts from these currently-hidden waypoints, without any of the other gameplay benefits others have suggested, would certainly motivate me to submit more of that Lightship-only art. In Ingress, being able to make progress on uniques, even if these Lightship-only waypoints can’t be used for links and fielding, would also add some value to these locations. Or being able to get keys/similar item that can be shared with friends, even if there’s no other interaction available with the waypoint.
I understand, of course, that how each game utilises the Lightship database is up to those teams, so these are just ideas for what kinds of options might exist that allow games to keep their proximity rules while still giving some motivation for Explorers to submit these Lightship-only waypoints. We need something. As others have already stated, the current set-up offers no reason to submit these and even encourages misplacing waypoints to allow them to actually show up in games, harming the integrity of Niantic’s product.
Didn't Catan have a system where each season different POIs would be picked to be put on the board? It would be neat to see systems like that implemented in other games for situations where stops canceled each other out. It's a pity that game got taken out to the backyard before anything could become of it.
Yes. Catan only synced new Wayspots once a month but the game board changed every “Season”. With Pokémon GO including Seasons now, I thought we may get the same. Even Ingress is now running Anomaly “Seasons” that run each quarter so they could switch up the gameboard too, or change it at the end of Septicyles. The only issue with Ingress would be the fields, but some players would welcome some giant perma-fields going down so they could actually play.
I could see it being controversial in ingress, it seems the factions are willing to go scorched earth on POI to prevent the other team from getting an advantage, or a perceived advantage. In PGO people have been asking for a way to get pokemon back from low traffic gyms for ages though, so as long as it didn't reduce the number of stops and just alternated between ones which were too close to one another I think it would go over great.
Maybe with the announcement of Niantic correcting the location of 15k wayspots, people will be more motivated to submit everything they find in case one of their main wayspots gets moved and disappears from their game of choice.
And I would still very much be motivated by a lightship database map.
Scouring maps has been crowdsourced for archeology purposes. People did it "in and of itself", with no other game to benefit.
What would happen if Indiana Jones and Google Earth had a love child? It would look something like GlobalXplorer.org, the citizen science platform that Sarah Parcak launched on January 30, 2017. This unique platform enlists a global community, and enables anyone with an internet connection to discover the next hidden tomb or potential looting pit using satellite technology. The platform uses satellite imagery provided by DigitalGlobe, and highlights content from National Geographic. The platform will also be a hub for conversations on new sites found, past sites protected and the future of technology in archaeology.
Why are you so down on ingress players requesting the 20m distance to be eliminated. I'm very limited to portals close to home and I very much enjoy building complex field plans. Having 3 portals in the park as opposed to 2 allows me to build more. Gives me more chance to build complicated beautiful field arrays.
The "reinstating" of the 20m gutted me. I was so excited to nominate those infill portals so I could build more sophisticated homogeneous fields which is my passion.
I have spent a lot of time building gyms for my pogo people. I found it to be a intellectual challenge and an awesome second strategy to discover pois by looking for that 2nd pokestop for that 6th pokestop.
I worked hard to make sure my pin placement while still on the poi would make a pokestop. I prioritised pokestops as opposed to portal only spots when the queues went long.
Ingress is very different to pogo. I am filthy jealous that you have unlimited spins and 80m range and you have something actually inbetween POIs.
I hear you feel cheated by perceived advantage of more portals but from my perspective pogo has so much ingress doesn't.
I will back you up if you say to Niantic that there 17cell rules are too restrictive in many places. I created 6 portals in my local park and it only made 2 pokestops cause of cells .... I have never thought that fair as the park is surrounded by private single residential zoned properties and all those surrounding s17 cells will never have a poi.
I think some of the annoyance with the 20m discussion comes down to the double standards with which ingress and pogo are treated on this forum. I don't mind ingress game mechanics being talked about here personally, but I get how it could be frustrating when the first whiff of pogo mechanics gets a thread locked with no official forums to take it to.
I can imagine it’s frustrating that everyone else has an official forum for their game but Pokémon GO just has the support team which could be much much better.
I did post a thread asking about a Pokémon GO forum but I think it’s not changed.
This has yawed way off topic.
The 20m rule is a discussion for the Ingress forums, not here, because the Wayfarer team - to whom we are submitting these AMA questions - has ZERO say on the matter.
There will never be official PoGo forums. It would cost too much to moderate the traffic it would generate, and offer minimal benefit considering the game is already pretty popular without forums.
To the actual subject, developing Wayfarer as its own “game” - avatar, badges, activity profile - with full Lightship access would spur increased contributions, as it would serve as the “game” in which every POI appears.
Huh, that would actually be q fun idea to try, one event remove half the portals for a week, then swap then the next week (caveat I need to add here, portals that are removed still keep their mods, resos etc. And dont need charged, or maybe they still need charged and the keys can do that but all links off of them are removed and they can't be interacted with in am other way?) See how that goes over, probably badly, but qould shake things up
I'm retired from wayfarer in its current form yet I did contribute 4.5years 500 nominations 5000 reviews.
The premise of "get people to contribute to lightship only POIs"
Yeah ... Na....
It is NO PICNIC to contribute to the invisible.
I've created many accepted POIs that did not became POIs in any game. So in a way I have already made about 60 such lightship POIs.
Some of those accepts are now portals due to pin placement changes and would be duplicates now. Some of those accepts are now no longer existing. I can't edit them! I can't withdraw them.
Many portals and pokestops I have created I will never used by myself personally but being able to see them on Intel to know someone could use them that is powerful.
To be clear it's not right to have people nominating things in good faith when there's no hope that the person nominating will see it result in the game for them.
I drove 15 minutes over to a park to get a key so I could suggest an edit to move a portal over a cell boundry to get another poi in the park for a pogo player who was so distressed that their accepted nomination did not appear in the game due to it being within 20m of a portal not seen in pogo.
Luckily we were successful. And they got another pokestop for the park.
It's really distressing to folk to not know the rules. I really felt for that player because I didn't know the 20m rule for the first 2 years of nominating.
So take your encouragement of lightship only POI submission and stick it up your jumper!
*** In British and Australian English, the imperative phrase stick it up your jumper jocularly expresses indifference towards, or rejection of, a suggestion.
Confuses me how people disagree with my posts 🤣 .... Especially when I relate personal experience.... Likely little snotty teens....
What are you disagreeing with? That I spent 45mins of my life driving and getting an edit submitted so I could help another Niantic game player out.
Do you think I am making that up?
Takes 1 sec to disagree. I have devoted thousands of hours to this wayfarer system.
The disagree button has to go.
It allow faceless people do a lazy hurtful ridicule on people who have done the work.
Disagree you ferrets. You who have not walked in my shoes . Pathetic.
I generally agree with your comments, however, I have zero sympathy about driving anywhere. The car did the work. Now, if you said you walked there, I would be all ears. 😉