Confirm these markers are not eligable
Shottix-ING Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
Unsure as to why the community (part of the community) keeps approving yellow public footpath markers as waypoints, they exist in every single field in England with a public right of way, just because the submitter calls it some made up trail name doesn't make it a trail. Niantic states named trails only, where the marker exists on a route with a legitimate trial name and the marker displays this name.
Please confirm these are not eligible. (These are taken from IITC and already in game as wayspots.
I do not consider these basic "public footpath" yellow arrows to be eligible - also applies to basic blue "public bridleway" markers. Generic mass produced - not interesting - 1* do not meet criteria rejections. I see them submitted on a daily basis and reject all of them.
If they have a trail name on them - fine, but not the plain, find them every 30m markers.
As much as I dislike these, Niantic have muddied the waters on this with a clarification they made;
The new criteria lists hiking trails and biking trails as eligible examples under a great place for exercise. Are there any additional requirements for these locations to be eligible (e.g. survey markers, trail signs or other man-made objects)? Do they need to be named trails or paths?
While this criteria is much more inclusive than before, there would still need to be some sort of visual indicator of the Wayspot. This is because you're dropping a pin on the map and since trails are long and linear, you'd want to direct players to a safe location somewhere along that trail that's easy to find and safe to access. This would apply to trail markers,
survey markers, trail signs, etc.
So with this, as Niantic didn’t say they needed to name specifically in their answer, some have taken it as “trails don’t need to be named now to be accepted and are submitting every bridleway and general footpath. They forget that rejection criteria also applies as mentioned here.
The above quote was shared today in a social media group with almost 10k reviewers in, so this is a difficult one to convince reviewers about.
There’s also the comments from @NianticGiffard about NCN markers which don’t help.
Yes but there is room for regional interpretation and variation. Different conventions apply in different countries.
Generic footpath markers are definitely not considered acceptable in the UK.
I agree. Unfortunately a lot do seem to slip through and have been a problem especially in Shottix’s area from one or two players.
I think you answered your own question with your last remark. They are already in Lightship, so.......
Keep in mind that more goes into a nomination then just an image, so if the contributor made a compelling argument to get it accepted there really isn't any issue here. Niantic has made it very clear that the overwhelming majority of trail markers are eligible, even if they look to be "generic" as they still promote exploration and exercise. In your OP you mentioned that these are part of public right-of-away in fields. That being the case they are 100% eligible under Niantic's current guidance and clarification. Short of faked nominations these types of submissions should be accepted in nearly all cases. Hence why you are seeing them in game.
I do think a yellow arrow that can be purchased for £3.99 online and stuck on any fence you see in a field shouldn't be encouraged to be accepted as a waypoint, even the legitimate ones are simply to show a walker a designated path or right of way, if a submitter makes up a trail name then that is falsifying a trail. I highly doubt anyone would approve a marker if it was called "public footpath" thanks for your comment.
No not at all. They merely indicate a legal right to walk along that path. You also have a legal right to walk along the pavement adjacent to any public road. However, they don't put signs up because everybody knows this. By your argument - that anywhere we can legally waik is eglible - every street with a pavement is also eligble. In fact, although my street is a loop and therefore doesn't go anywhere, many people walk, jog and cycle past my house. Clearly, the existence of my street literally does encourage exercise. Would you say it's eligible?
Footpaths weren't created with exploration or exercise in mind. They are rights of way that have existed since the year dot but which were never convenient, popular or well-used enough to become roads. So in fact all public roads are actually better candidates.
This might as well be a piece of garbage stuck in the road near a sidewalk. “Look! Here’s an old shirt pinned to a random berm by a tent stake. Nominate it!” This is the perfect example of the kind of generic, unremarkable, pseudo-“trail marker” that should be 100% ineligible.
I don't think that a common marker that you see in every field can be considered a trail marker, The term trail would indicate it has a name and specific markers to follow, if your logic is true I could follow these generic yellow markers from one field to the next, where is it taking me? This definitely comes under the generic side of it and the reason the ones I posted in game are live is because the submitter called them a fake trail name which doesn't exist. Thanks for your comment
In the US, I would agree with you, but reading posts by UK reviewers, I think these are used differently than what we're used to in the US. If they say they should be rejected in that country, I'll go along with that if I ever find myself doing any UK reviews.
I would still pass similar markers in the States, though, as they don't occur here unless there is an actual trail to follow.
According to the rules, i think all of them are eligible.
If they're unmarked, or only marked as public bridleway or public footpath, then those will get rejected by me. They don't indicate a trail, they just indicate a public right of way or permissive access in cases where it might not be obvious that you are allowed to walk somewhere. They don't form any part of any meaningful trail or route, so they can't be considered trail markers by themselves.
Couple of things. First for most folks, bridle path, trail, footpath, hiking trail, rail trail, walking path; these are all synonyms of each other. They all denote a place where you can travel/exercise/explore that is partially publicly accessible intended for pedestrian use and generally not intended for vehicles. So they are not the same as a paved road as others have surmised . (However I would also point out that some trail systems will have some paved stretches as well). As many have mentioned, Niantic has widened the criteria of what makes a valid trail marker. The notion that it needs to include a specific name on it to be considered is false. Just visit any of the discussions where Giffard has chimed in, most of them have already been linked throughout this thread.
Does it need to take you somewhere to be a good place for exercise? or to explore? Nope. A trail can just be a trail. It can end unceremoniously. Maybe the experience is in the journey and not the destination.
Second, you have to realize that Niantic provides guidelines for global application. Its a standard that has to provide broad inclusion. (or exclusion) But we know that regionally things differ, which is why Niantic provides us that grey area; to make room for those regional differences. However the core of the standard remains the same and when Niantic makes decisions on appeals they apply that global standard.
So while regionally, your community may decide that these types of markers do not raise to the level that they should be accepted, globally Niantic allows for other locations to accept those areas. So now its up to your community. Its obvious that you are firmly on the side of not accepting these, and there are certainly others that agree with that stance, however I go back to the fact that you already mentioned your own community has started to accept them. They are active POI's in Lightship, so while you and other may not want them to be accepted, the community at large is now accepting them, and nothing that Niantic is saying right now would lend me belief that they view these as ineligible, and certainly not subjected to a regional belief.
I see some of the rational in your argument, and if you were talking about current nominations then I may be more inclined to agree, but taking everything into account, especially that they are already Wayspots, the evidence just doesn't add up to your conclusion.
If we accept these, then we need to accept all these public footpaths. (Image is of all footpaths/rights of ways in Kent and is about 80km across).
While I agree the public path marker is not acceptable you arw working off the old guidelines in saying it needs to be named, you already know that's not needed anymore so why did you post this as though it is?
One thing you said reminds me of a quote from a novel series I love. "Journey before destination"
Without the name, it's not considered a trail in the UK. That's the point.
Which, if true, would be a regional distinction and not something that Niantic can adjudicate when writing a global standard. That’s the point.
Thats not true thoigh, there's several hiking trails that have markers but aren't named, you going ro say they aren't allowed? What about local run things such as what the council next to mine did, where they set up a load of markers along walkways to get people out and exploring/exercising but have them marked as "route a" "route b" etc. They not good enough?
Most "official" hiking trails have a name and are listed on one or more websites. You can't just point to a dirt track in the woods and say "well this bit is a hiking trail so it's a POI".
Similarly, "a load of markers" - No - things like A or B or 1 or 2 are not eligible for me.
But Niantic thought it okay to confirm about the National Cycle Network signs which are everywhere around the UK in another thread?
I very much agree with this and this is how I feel. Many of these are being submitted as a "trail" from one village to the next, they aren't trails, I do agree with others that named trails or walking routes with a searchable name should be approved, but a £3.99 marker which can be bought on ebay and stuck anywhere with no valid trail existing is very open to have 5 of these in every field as a waypoint. Where does it end?
They agreed with some of them, not all. Until then, no trail name, no approval.
Yeah, the NCN thread tends to be what those nominating public footpaths etc. link back to. It’s very annoying to see them get accepted when other proper trailmarkers get rejected multiple times or have to go through an Appeal to get accepted.
You're missing the point, Niantic confirmed that their guidance applies here and it was ok to move forward with these kinds of signs in some/most cases. Where they drew the line was the random bike symbol on what otherwise was a street sign. Symbols for Bike Lanes no, Markers for Bike paths yes. So they took at regional issue and applied the current global standard to it.
That would be different then if they had said something like, "in the rest of the world these are ok but in the UK the community has decided to reject them so we've changed our standard for this region".
It's not the same debate.
I think you keep missing the point that, in the UK, these "public footpath markers" mean something different than they do in the rest of the world. In the UK, they are equivalent to your "Symbols for Bike Lanes no" example. They say "you can walk here", not "this way is part of a hiking trail".
So despite the fact these markers are put up by the local council for exercising and exploring they arent good enough? Meeting 2 of the criteria niantic wants by the councils own words isn't good enough? Im now genuinely wondering, what fo you even get from reviewing now? You don't like niantics guidelines, you ignore them constantly, you don't give advice on how to improve nominations on here, so what do you actually get out of this?
Edit, to be clear, im talking about the lettered routes in reply, not the hiking trails
As Jilljily said, it's not true to say they put up for exercising and exploring, they are just signs saying "you can walk here".
They don't indicate "this way is part of a hiking trail".
Hiking trails have markers with the name of the trail on them, like everywhere. There's no UK exception, they are just more cautious about saying to people which footpaths are private and which are public.
As above. Not all footpaths are "trails", but some "trails" make use of some or all parts of a footpath. A footpath is a "Public right of way", and is something usually long established, often due to long term use. It basically says, "the public are allowed on this land provided they follow the route of the footpath as laid out and do not stray off it", which is why there are so many mass produced, generic, placed at every hedgerow and field boundary or turn on the footpath yellow arrow markers. Landowners may not block off a footpath or prevent people from using it. he councils have not set them up for the public to "explore". The signs are not "trail markers" but waymarkers to show the public where they may legally walk .
For those of you interested in the subject, the type and style of the various markers are can be found in this document: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/414626/waymarking-rights-of-way.pdf
So, back to the original posed by the OP. The "standard, officially defined" basic footpath signs are mass produced, generic and not interesting, and most footpaths are just that, a numbered route on the official footpath map. There are 1000s and 1000s of them - more then postboxes, more than pubs, more than churches or historc sculpture. There are too many of them. They are identical. They are generic. They are not interesting. They are not eligible.
Now, put an official trail name on them and that changes things - they become a trail marker. Whether you like it or not, they are "Niantic approved" so should be considered eligible. Whether you have to accept every single identically named marker at 50m intervals is another question. How do you know a trail marker is "official" (ie not faked) or in the correct place (I have seen nominations for both)? Check check out the Long Distance Walkers Association website: https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/search_by_path.php