Much as I'd love to just leave those without upgrades, I still have nominations from late 2020 in voting. It seems impossible to get a decision on anything around here without upgrades these days. Really wish Niantic would further clarify the rules here.
Believe it or not, I got one approved recently that was upgraded automatically because I hadn’t chosen an upgrade next. Shoutout to my DFW peeps for chiming in. I felt I was living in the Twilight zone there for a while arguing with these people. These promote exercise a heck of a lot more than most stops.
at the community day meetup in dallas on saturday, @Ferrothorn88-ING and i had the opportunity to speak with @NianticTintino about these specific trail markers around dfw and showed him example photos. we explained their purpose and how common they can be along many official trails in the dallas area. i also informed him that i've seen similar markers in other states as well.
although he did not give an official answer, he seemed to mostly agree that they can be eligible as wayspots. i don't want to call tintino or any other admins out to make a distinction, since this is not criteria clarification. i just wanted to give an update.
one of these markers that had previously been rejected was also appealed at our local park by another user, and was accepted by niantic upon appeal.
And did you explain that they aren't actual trail markers, they are markers for use only by the emergency services, and that there are separate installed trail markers.
Or perhaps did you show them the official website where it clearly states that the markers are solely for the use in case of emergency to notify the emergency services.
thank you for your very insightful assumptions and valuable input. it was not an extremely long or in-depth conversation, but it wasn't brief, either. he is aware that local emergency services do use them in case there is an emergency at that location. he also understands that they can be used as locators for players organizing raids or meetups at certain wayspots and such.
what is this official website you speak of? i would love to see it, because i have not been able to find an "official" website for all of these trail markers around the dallas-ft. worth metroplex. the original markers were installed for the katy trail, but since then, several other cities have copied these markers for their trails.
despite the divide on the validity and sole purpose of these markers, i doubt we'll get a clear answer or ruling on whether these particular trail markers are eligible or not. niantic's policy seems to rely largely on local interpretation. they may remain a grey area for some, and a definite yes/no for others.
Lol and what are emergency services going to do at these signs @Theisman-ING . Take picnics.
These signs are for the *public* ... You know people... to mark their location on a long trail in the case of emergency so they can be found .... Use you head... Get outside of your rigid thinking style. These kinda stops are perfect!!!! Uniquely numbered. Incentive to take that long walk.
Consider:
Taking a trail is such great exercise.
We all know there's long stretches of trails that have nothing on them .... The inner city walk has so many poi. Why can't the long trail have them too. We are so hung up on 'points of interest' but the main aim is to get out and take that walk.
Highlighting these signs is a civic service. If a Niantic game player falls off their bike and hurts their leg they'll know exactly were they are to tell the emergency services.
They're designed to make it easier for people to relay thier location to EMS, and setup in such a way as to be useful for navigating if you familiarize yourself with the numbers.
If a marker along a trail provides navigation related benefits, even if it's primarily focused on helping first responders find people, then it's still a trail marker. If a pole in the ground with an arrow counts as a trail marker, then so do these. Plus as @Himillsy-PGO mentioned, Tintino himself seemed to generally agree with that sentiment after we explained how the local trail markers are set up. And to top it off, one of them was accepted in an appeal within the past couple days.
Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that these do in fact count as trail markers. Case closed.
Considering the appeals process has apparently recently accepted LFLs on PRP, im not sure you can claim any such thing.
The fact is they are emergency locator points, they have nothing to do with a trial. They are in essence the same those emergancy telephones that you have on the road incase you break down, they are there so you can inform the Emergency services where you are.
They are not there to help you explore, the actual trail markers and mile markers are for that
They are not there to help you exercise, again the actual trail markers are for that.
They are not a great place to be social with others.
There are two motivations for humans walking... generally speaking - the errand goal focused (point of interest) and the journey - just enjoying being on a walk in nature or an urban park ( line of interest )
In a game where lines of interest are not represented by the game mechanisms then accepting location markers - whether unique emergency points or navigational markers helps bring the 'line of interest' into the game in some what a fashion.
Okay you can think that about my judgement if you like.
Just I don't see the difference between them. They mark points on a trail.
I value trails highly and I want people to get out and enjoy them. As a real world structure they are understated in Niantic's games .... Including these substandard in your mind would help address that lack of representation in the lightship ... Despite claims of mundanity .... I see unique identifier and a well defined location
ah, i thought that might be the website you're referring to. that is not considered the "official" website. that is just the website for the katy trail, one of the many trails that happens to have these markers. it is the first trail in dfw to have the markers installed, but several other trails in dallas followed suit, then many other cities around dallas copied their idea and started putting up signs on long, winding trails.
true, some appeals have not been good. i wasn't trying to say "niantic accepted an appeal for one so that means they are eligible" as so many brag about on this forum. i was sharing a piece of information that could be viewed as supportive, but might not have definite validity.
i think i've covered all points and everything that i want or need to say about this topic in this thread, so there is no sense in me continuing this conversation with you. you seem to have injected yourself into this thread solely to argue, and i'm not going to waste any more time doing that with you.
Where they are clearly classified as an Emergency system.
Two separate offical websites, one for Dallas parks and rec as a whole, the other for this trail specifically, and in both cases they are clearly stated to be emergency locator markers for emergency services.
Yet somehow you still managed not to find this information ? O...kay
The mile markers on the Katy Trail are embedded into the concrete trail every quarter of a mile and show the distance from the end of the Trail in the direction you are traveling. Whether you start at Airline Road in the north, or the American Airlines Center in the south, the mile marker says zero. The next marker you see says 1/4, and so on every quarter of a mile until you get to the other end of the Trail. When you turn around, you’re at zero again.
The signs on poles along the Trail are 911 markers for DPD and DFD. They are labeled KT-100 through KT-125 and are tied to the City’s GPS because the 3.5-mile Katy Trail is too long to have one official address. They are approximately 1/8 of a mile apart, but they are not mileage markers. In case of an emergency, please make note of your nearest 911 mile marker to alert first responders."
There's markers every 1/4 mile and 911 markers. They are different things. I'm not sure everyone has understood this. (I had not^^)
Just because they are Emergency waypoints, does not make them any less of a trail marker. Objects can have multiple uses you know, and in this case, these trail markers have dual functionality. Yes, they help first responders find people in case of emergencies. But they ALSO serve as useful landmarks and navigational tools for folks using the trails.
Heck, I could argue that the markers themselves are more for public use than for EMS. First responders already have info on where the markers are, and could probably reach the location of any given one even if the marker were to be removed. They're more for helping people pass along the info EMS needs, than for them to actually follow to the place(s) they're needed.
These markers, therefore, contain info about the trail that can be useful to the average user, which means they have everything to do with the trails. And surely I don't need to explain how trails are very much eligible, as they encourage both exploration and exercise. One could even argue that they encourage social gathering to some degree.
The only reason these markers could be considered ineligible, is if thier inclusion would interfere with Emergency services. And as someone that has visited trails with these markers probably dozens of times, I can confidently say they do not. Not once have I seen any EMS actually have to go out to one. And even in such a situation, there'd very likely still be ample room to pass by. Plus, the place they need to get to might merely be close by to a trail marker, and not directly at one.
It seems to me that you're just caught up on the fact that these markers are meant to be used in emergencies, and not recognizing that they have other uses too. And just for your information, these markers make up the overwhelming majority of trail signage in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area. Mile markers on trails here are very few and far between. Most do not have them at all. Same for map based signs showing said trails, very few of them. If I had to guess, I'd say these signs make up at least 85% of all trail signs in the area.
We can't nominate alternatives for more trail waypoints because for the most part, they don't exist. These markers are what we have to work with. They may be a bit unconventional, but they do have thier uses outside of just EMS waypoints.
I was referring to the idea they could be both emergency markers and trail markers, this is not related to whether they are mile markers or not. I didn't see anyone proposing they are mile markers (i.e. signs that show the distance along the trail ftom the trail starting point).
@NianticGiffard , can you chime in on this or seek clarification for them please.
Mine and others position, including the offical Dallas Parks and Recreation department, don't consider them trail markers / mile markers, which are installed separately on the trails.
Instead They are considered to be emergency locator markers for use by Emergency services as evidenced in the web links above.
How many times do people have to say it, they don't have other trail markers besides these. Maybe a small handful of mile markers once in a blue moon, but not much else.
And how many times does it need to be pointed out that it doesn't make a difference if there isnt many offical trail markers.
If a sign is classified by the local council as being made for emergency services, is for use as a locator for emergency services, then it isn't a trail marker.
Its an emergency services locator point nothing more and as such doesn't meet any criteria at all.
Just because its the only thing around doesn't instantly make it a valid candidate
Comments
Much as I'd love to just leave those without upgrades, I still have nominations from late 2020 in voting. It seems impossible to get a decision on anything around here without upgrades these days. Really wish Niantic would further clarify the rules here.
Believe it or not, I got one approved recently that was upgraded automatically because I hadn’t chosen an upgrade next. Shoutout to my DFW peeps for chiming in. I felt I was living in the Twilight zone there for a while arguing with these people. These promote exercise a heck of a lot more than most stops.
at the community day meetup in dallas on saturday, @Ferrothorn88-ING and i had the opportunity to speak with @NianticTintino about these specific trail markers around dfw and showed him example photos. we explained their purpose and how common they can be along many official trails in the dallas area. i also informed him that i've seen similar markers in other states as well.
although he did not give an official answer, he seemed to mostly agree that they can be eligible as wayspots. i don't want to call tintino or any other admins out to make a distinction, since this is not criteria clarification. i just wanted to give an update.
one of these markers that had previously been rejected was also appealed at our local park by another user, and was accepted by niantic upon appeal.
And did you explain that they aren't actual trail markers, they are markers for use only by the emergency services, and that there are separate installed trail markers.
Or perhaps did you show them the official website where it clearly states that the markers are solely for the use in case of emergency to notify the emergency services.
I'm going to guess not
hi, welcome to the thread.
thank you for your very insightful assumptions and valuable input. it was not an extremely long or in-depth conversation, but it wasn't brief, either. he is aware that local emergency services do use them in case there is an emergency at that location. he also understands that they can be used as locators for players organizing raids or meetups at certain wayspots and such.
what is this official website you speak of? i would love to see it, because i have not been able to find an "official" website for all of these trail markers around the dallas-ft. worth metroplex. the original markers were installed for the katy trail, but since then, several other cities have copied these markers for their trails.
despite the divide on the validity and sole purpose of these markers, i doubt we'll get a clear answer or ruling on whether these particular trail markers are eligible or not. niantic's policy seems to rely largely on local interpretation. they may remain a grey area for some, and a definite yes/no for others.
Didnt even look at the offical Katy trail website then ?
May want to have read that first.
They are not designed for any other reason than to allow fast response by Emergency services.
They dont represent trial markers, they are locator points for Emergency services.
Lol and what are emergency services going to do at these signs @Theisman-ING . Take picnics.
These signs are for the *public* ... You know people... to mark their location on a long trail in the case of emergency so they can be found .... Use you head... Get outside of your rigid thinking style. These kinda stops are perfect!!!! Uniquely numbered. Incentive to take that long walk.
Consider:
Taking a trail is such great exercise.
We all know there's long stretches of trails that have nothing on them .... The inner city walk has so many poi. Why can't the long trail have them too. We are so hung up on 'points of interest' but the main aim is to get out and take that walk.
Highlighting these signs is a civic service. If a Niantic game player falls off their bike and hurts their leg they'll know exactly were they are to tell the emergency services.
More stops on trails!
You gotta admit too @Theisman-ING some of those trails lines look like they would be great spines for layer fields.
Play ingress on trails not in your car!!!!!
They're designed to make it easier for people to relay thier location to EMS, and setup in such a way as to be useful for navigating if you familiarize yourself with the numbers.
If a marker along a trail provides navigation related benefits, even if it's primarily focused on helping first responders find people, then it's still a trail marker. If a pole in the ground with an arrow counts as a trail marker, then so do these. Plus as @Himillsy-PGO mentioned, Tintino himself seemed to generally agree with that sentiment after we explained how the local trail markers are set up. And to top it off, one of them was accepted in an appeal within the past couple days.
Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that these do in fact count as trail markers. Case closed.
Considering the appeals process has apparently recently accepted LFLs on PRP, im not sure you can claim any such thing.
The fact is they are emergency locator points, they have nothing to do with a trial. They are in essence the same those emergancy telephones that you have on the road incase you break down, they are there so you can inform the Emergency services where you are.
They are not there to help you explore, the actual trail markers and mile markers are for that
They are not there to help you exercise, again the actual trail markers are for that.
They are not a great place to be social with others.
There is nothing about them which meets criteria.
They are there for Emergancy services only
Ahh so were back on the , we don't care about quality, more more more argument, who cares that it doesn't meet criteria, argument again are we ?
Just because something is useful doesn't make it a viable or intersting candidate.
A cell tower is useful, my local fuel station is useful, doesn't make them worthwhile candidates.
Lol it's not about the quality of the poi.
There are two motivations for humans walking... generally speaking - the errand goal focused (point of interest) and the journey - just enjoying being on a walk in nature or an urban park ( line of interest )
In a game where lines of interest are not represented by the game mechanisms then accepting location markers - whether unique emergency points or navigational markers helps bring the 'line of interest' into the game in some what a fashion.
You've just said that you dont care about the quality of POIs and that you're happy with Emergency points in games.
What else is there to say if you're going to so blatantly admit to ignoring the ideals and critera of Wayfarer.
There are plenty of examples in ingress ....
Spring Mountain Beacon ... Is a cell tower
Mt Flinders Helipad .... Is a helipad.
Why are they in ingress because they are on mountains. Nothing to do with eligibility.
Most players don't have the time free to climb mountains regularly.
Vote 1 for more poi on the trails we get to more often. Let's treat people who get outside on a trail with more poi.
Okay you can think that about my judgement if you like.
Just I don't see the difference between them. They mark points on a trail.
I value trails highly and I want people to get out and enjoy them. As a real world structure they are understated in Niantic's games .... Including these substandard in your mind would help address that lack of representation in the lightship ... Despite claims of mundanity .... I see unique identifier and a well defined location
ah, i thought that might be the website you're referring to. that is not considered the "official" website. that is just the website for the katy trail, one of the many trails that happens to have these markers. it is the first trail in dfw to have the markers installed, but several other trails in dallas followed suit, then many other cities around dallas copied their idea and started putting up signs on long, winding trails.
true, some appeals have not been good. i wasn't trying to say "niantic accepted an appeal for one so that means they are eligible" as so many brag about on this forum. i was sharing a piece of information that could be viewed as supportive, but might not have definite validity.
i think i've covered all points and everything that i want or need to say about this topic in this thread, so there is no sense in me continuing this conversation with you. you seem to have injected yourself into this thread solely to argue, and i'm not going to waste any more time doing that with you.
How about the offical Dallas parks and recs website then ?
Where they are clearly classified as an Emergency system.
Two separate offical websites, one for Dallas parks and rec as a whole, the other for this trail specifically, and in both cases they are clearly stated to be emergency locator markers for emergency services.
Yet somehow you still managed not to find this information ? O...kay
"Mile Markers
The mile markers on the Katy Trail are embedded into the concrete trail every quarter of a mile and show the distance from the end of the Trail in the direction you are traveling. Whether you start at Airline Road in the north, or the American Airlines Center in the south, the mile marker says zero. The next marker you see says 1/4, and so on every quarter of a mile until you get to the other end of the Trail. When you turn around, you’re at zero again.
The signs on poles along the Trail are 911 markers for DPD and DFD. They are labeled KT-100 through KT-125 and are tied to the City’s GPS because the 3.5-mile Katy Trail is too long to have one official address. They are approximately 1/8 of a mile apart, but they are not mileage markers. In case of an emergency, please make note of your nearest 911 mile marker to alert first responders."
There's markers every 1/4 mile and 911 markers. They are different things. I'm not sure everyone has understood this. (I had not^^)
Just because they are Emergency waypoints, does not make them any less of a trail marker. Objects can have multiple uses you know, and in this case, these trail markers have dual functionality. Yes, they help first responders find people in case of emergencies. But they ALSO serve as useful landmarks and navigational tools for folks using the trails.
Heck, I could argue that the markers themselves are more for public use than for EMS. First responders already have info on where the markers are, and could probably reach the location of any given one even if the marker were to be removed. They're more for helping people pass along the info EMS needs, than for them to actually follow to the place(s) they're needed.
These markers, therefore, contain info about the trail that can be useful to the average user, which means they have everything to do with the trails. And surely I don't need to explain how trails are very much eligible, as they encourage both exploration and exercise. One could even argue that they encourage social gathering to some degree.
The only reason these markers could be considered ineligible, is if thier inclusion would interfere with Emergency services. And as someone that has visited trails with these markers probably dozens of times, I can confidently say they do not. Not once have I seen any EMS actually have to go out to one. And even in such a situation, there'd very likely still be ample room to pass by. Plus, the place they need to get to might merely be close by to a trail marker, and not directly at one.
It seems to me that you're just caught up on the fact that these markers are meant to be used in emergencies, and not recognizing that they have other uses too. And just for your information, these markers make up the overwhelming majority of trail signage in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area. Mile markers on trails here are very few and far between. Most do not have them at all. Same for map based signs showing said trails, very few of them. If I had to guess, I'd say these signs make up at least 85% of all trail signs in the area.
We can't nominate alternatives for more trail waypoints because for the most part, they don't exist. These markers are what we have to work with. They may be a bit unconventional, but they do have thier uses outside of just EMS waypoints.
So please, just stop.
^ Your first sentence entirely backwards.
The fact that they are emergency waypoints specifically makes them not trail markers.
I don't understand why things can't have multiple functions.
Say that to them. It's not us who put trail markers each 1/4 mile AND specific 911 on same trails.
And as you can see above there notice say "they are not mileage markers".
I was referring to the idea they could be both emergency markers and trail markers, this is not related to whether they are mile markers or not. I didn't see anyone proposing they are mile markers (i.e. signs that show the distance along the trail ftom the trail starting point).
Sorry, but you're wrong. Something being an emergency waypoint DOES NOT mean it can't also be something else.
They are unique identifying signs in a specific location ... How are they not a location marker?
They are significant to the safe use of trails just as directional markers on the trail provide safe use of the trail.
Hope the team give a ruling on this one.
@NianticGiffard , can you chime in on this or seek clarification for them please.
Mine and others position, including the offical Dallas Parks and Recreation department, don't consider them trail markers / mile markers, which are installed separately on the trails.
Instead They are considered to be emergency locator markers for use by Emergency services as evidenced in the web links above.
Others believe that they are valid trail markers.
Whats Niantics view on this ?
How many times do people have to say it, they don't have other trail markers besides these. Maybe a small handful of mile markers once in a blue moon, but not much else.
And how many times does it need to be pointed out that it doesn't make a difference if there isnt many offical trail markers.
If a sign is classified by the local council as being made for emergency services, is for use as a locator for emergency services, then it isn't a trail marker.
Its an emergency services locator point nothing more and as such doesn't meet any criteria at all.
Just because its the only thing around doesn't instantly make it a valid candidate
I've said it at least 5 times now, something being used for EMS doesn't make it not a trail marker. They're multi purpose.