it's not only the Pgo-players that abuse the system. The same is happening in Ingress, although this happens for other reasons. I've seen so many attempted moves to create a home or work portal or to remove it from it's correct location because a player of the other faction is using it as a home/work-portal.
Maybe moving should be excluded from wayfarer and done by Niantic like the removing. At least both communities would blame Niantic and not themselves :-)
At least I've seen false wayspots based on stolen photos, deliberate separation of adjacent POIs, and collusion to aggregate wayspots that were elsewhere, which has become more noticeable since the influx of malicious Pokémon GO players.
Also, I don't see a problem with the portals at home or at work that you mention, as long as they are separately eligible POIs.
I would not reject an eligible POI nominated at the exact location because it is a "home portal of the opposing camp".
I think that is the same for you as a reviewer, and I am sure it is the same for Niantic.
If anything, what Ingress players were feverishly trying to create were portals that were difficult to capture.
It seems to me that they were required to find how to find qualified POIs in areas where there was no signal or where there were time and conditions for access.
I have seen cases where some of these players were nominated for temporary placement.
Please, stop justifying abusive behavior by the PoGo community. It doesn't matter what their reasoning was, at the end of the day it was still abuse and now they have to accept the consequences. "For the greater good" is no justification at all.
What would you all think of this idea; when making an edit to a waypoint, a reasoning for it is required before submitting the edit. If we had that, we won't to use up more edits just to explain A, B, and C.
Honestly the way you talk about pokemon go players isn't very helpful for your cause. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not but it sure reads like you'd rather we weren't here at all.
Yeah, even if you put it in the quotations, I'd rather that if the edited position is still correct but benefits all games, then it should be done, rather than punishing one game because you don't like those players. You call it abuse, I call it fair
@Gazzas89-PGO You may prefer that, but Niantic has stated otherwise. We are only supposed to move pins if the current location is incorrect, or to move the pin to a "more logical point of discovery". The example they give for that is the entrance sign for a park, if I remember correctly.
Niantic considers moves to change the playfield for one specific game as abuse even if both locations are correct.
Yet I could argue placing the pin so that it can't appear in other games is also abuse. At the end of the day, I'd rather everyone gets to benefit from the waypoints, not just ingress or even pogo, in all this it's not been mentioned that it's now possible that ingress might not get a portal that becomes a pokestop, if that happens and I could move it so that it can become a portal, I would do that too
@Gazzas89-PGO How is it abuse to place a pin correctly on the object being submitted? I don't know the density rules for all of Niantic's games, and I'm not expected to. My job is to put the pin in the best place for the candidate itself, agnostic of any particular game's rules.
That's a very lame ruling then. Moving a wayspot from one accurate location to another equally accurate location isn't abuse IMO. It's only abuse if you move the point somewhere that is entirely inaccurate.
Or niantic could just fix the inclusion rules so this wouldn't be an issue.
@Ferrothorn88-ING I think it's a perfectly reasonable restriction. Different games have different rules and moving something to improve one game could make another worse. Imagine if I moved a bunch of portals because I wanted to straighten a spine for a field and that caused a couple of stops and the only gym in an area to be removed from PoGo. Can we agree that this outcome would be a net negative?
It works the other direction too. A while ago I looked at an old field plan because I was thinking about organizing a rethrow but three of the portals had been moved so those layers were no longer possible.
If both positions are correct, but people do it so that it won't appear in game, how is that any less abuse than putting it in a position that allows it to appear in a game. You just need to listen to farix complaints about pogo players to know he would be bias against when it comes to that games player base and therefore he would, maybe unintentionally, pick the one that would remove the chance of a stop. I will always try to position the pin, through submission or edit, to get it into as many games as possible, because that's what will make the games more fun, while still making it correct. It may be an unpopular view on here, but I know people who play the games will be a lot happier than if I didn't try to put things in for all games
@NianticGiffard Can this topic be shutdown as it has become a platform for people advocating location edit abuse to gain an advantage on the gameboard?
@Gazzas89-PGO I think it's rare for people to place pins deliberately so that something will not appear in one game. The most common case is that people just put the pin where they think it belongs and don't pay attention to inclusion rules for any specific game.
@Hosette-ING has some good points that Pokemon-only players probably aren't aware of. Moving wayspots can cause problems in Ingress, such as breaking links. Moreover some positions have an advantage over others for certain fielding strategies or portal control. It seems to be a myth among Pokemon-only players that Ingress players are never harmed by location edits.
Im really not, the only place this "reputation" exists is in this forum and maybe a couple of groups outside. At the end of the day, I'm adverting that if 2 positions are equally correct when am edit comes about, then it helps everyone if it is in every game. Niantic may have called it abuse, but I find it abusive to actively deny people waypoints in their game, you just need to look at how you and farix demonise people who do it and the player base in general. I really couldn't care less if some small petty players don't like it, it's better for everyone all round if all games can get as much advantage from the waypoint map as possible while having the waypoints still he correct
I will add incase people are missing the point I don't advocate moving something correct to something wrong, I'm advocating that if you can have an equally correct place, then it should be moved to help all games.
As for the ingress thing, I've seen people move portals to get them to fit their links, and I've seen people refuse to move portals that are wrong to suit their fields, so it's not just pogo players that do this stuff, seeing as that's the player base that gets demonised
For those who are unaware, I here are two different places where Niantic has forbidden the moving of pins to manipulate one game's board:
From NianticCasey: "The location of the pin should accurately reflect the Wayspot's location in the real-world, regardless of whether it has converted into the desired in-app location or not.
As TheFairx-PGO said, location changes should only be submitted to make the marker more accurate or if the marker were to be closer to a logical point of discovery representing a larger location (e.g. a welcome sign for a large park)."
From the November 2020 AMA: "Since the main goal for Niantic apps, and therefore what the Wayspots should facilitate, is to explore and discover new locations around you, the marker pin should be on top of the object nominated. Submitters can verify the location selected before they submit the nomination but purposely moving the pin to manipulate a specific app’s gameboard is not allowed." [note: there is no direct link to this answer so you'll have to scroll to find it]
From my personal perspective, if there are multiple legitimate locations for a specific object's pin, and there's not one that is objectively better than the others, then it's perfectly reasonable to choose a location that suits your personal preferences. For example, for a playground that's ten meters in diameter you can drop the pin anywhere that's actually on the playground and that's perfectly legit.[1] Once the wayspot is established, though, the valid reasons for moving it are as described above, and moving something into a different cell isn't one of them.
[1] I can hear someone winding up to tell me it has to be on the edge of the playground, but it doesn't. If the playground is 10m in diameter then you have 35-75 meters of not-on-the-playground area to interact with a wayspot if the pin is in the center. For large sporting fields then yes, the pin should be near an edge.
That's a fair point, but you also have to be realistic here. As long as niantic keeps the inclusion rules overly restrictive, it's inevitable that people will attempt to move waypoints around to get them to show up. Doesn't matter how many punishments are doled out, people don't want to miss out on more locations because of some arbitrary rules that really don't make sense. Plus it means niantic has to waste more time trying to both fix and prevent such edits.
If they want to keep location edits purely for fixing inaccuracies that's fine, but if they wish to do so, then they have to make sure people won't feel punished for selecting one accurate, but less favorable, location over another accurate, but more favorable one. Niantic either has to drastically trim down the inclusion rules so they become more inclusive, do away with them entirely, or people will continue to use location edits to get more waypoints on the board. There's just no getting around it otherwise.
@Ferrothorn88-ING I think what I just heard you say, "If a system can be cheated then some people will try to cheat it." I don't disagree, but I've also never met a system that couldn't be cheated. I also don't think that's an argument in favor of cheating the system or accepting that behavior.
As for the inclusion rules, I spent a little bit of time this weekend playing both PoGo and Ingress in an extra-dense area of wayspots that were put up for community day. Ingress handled it with the usual disambiguator. PoGo was an exercise in frustration... it was essentially impossible to tap on the thing I was aiming for.
Comments
it's not only the Pgo-players that abuse the system. The same is happening in Ingress, although this happens for other reasons. I've seen so many attempted moves to create a home or work portal or to remove it from it's correct location because a player of the other faction is using it as a home/work-portal.
Maybe moving should be excluded from wayfarer and done by Niantic like the removing. At least both communities would blame Niantic and not themselves :-)
Is that so?
At least I've seen false wayspots based on stolen photos, deliberate separation of adjacent POIs, and collusion to aggregate wayspots that were elsewhere, which has become more noticeable since the influx of malicious Pokémon GO players.
Also, I don't see a problem with the portals at home or at work that you mention, as long as they are separately eligible POIs.
I would not reject an eligible POI nominated at the exact location because it is a "home portal of the opposing camp".
I think that is the same for you as a reviewer, and I am sure it is the same for Niantic.
If anything, what Ingress players were feverishly trying to create were portals that were difficult to capture.
It seems to me that they were required to find how to find qualified POIs in areas where there was no signal or where there were time and conditions for access.
I have seen cases where some of these players were nominated for temporary placement.
They were rejected, of course.
Please, stop justifying abusive behavior by the PoGo community. It doesn't matter what their reasoning was, at the end of the day it was still abuse and now they have to accept the consequences. "For the greater good" is no justification at all.
What would you all think of this idea; when making an edit to a waypoint, a reasoning for it is required before submitting the edit. If we had that, we won't to use up more edits just to explain A, B, and C.
Ingress agent trying to discuss with the Pokémon Go Community why they shouldn’t make abusive location edits…
I personally think an info box for all edits is useful.
eg pub in new ownership with new name.
You refer to that replacing using a number of edits.
it is against the rules to write in an edit eg please select point X.
You will find yourself reported for abuse of the system.
It still exists as a stop in Go though?
I'd take a stop over a gym personally.
Honestly the way you talk about pokemon go players isn't very helpful for your cause. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not but it sure reads like you'd rather we weren't here at all.
If the edit is still correct but benefits all games, then I endorse it, simple as that.
So you approve of location edit abuse "for the greater good".
my point is that there area few bad actors in both games and those bad actors destroy the joy of the majority of players/reviewers...
Yeah, even if you put it in the quotations, I'd rather that if the edited position is still correct but benefits all games, then it should be done, rather than punishing one game because you don't like those players. You call it abuse, I call it fair
"it is against the rules to write in an edit eg please select point X."
So many people have broken this rule, I've lost count.
@Gazzas89-PGO You may prefer that, but Niantic has stated otherwise. We are only supposed to move pins if the current location is incorrect, or to move the pin to a "more logical point of discovery". The example they give for that is the entrance sign for a park, if I remember correctly.
Niantic considers moves to change the playfield for one specific game as abuse even if both locations are correct.
Yet I could argue placing the pin so that it can't appear in other games is also abuse. At the end of the day, I'd rather everyone gets to benefit from the waypoints, not just ingress or even pogo, in all this it's not been mentioned that it's now possible that ingress might not get a portal that becomes a pokestop, if that happens and I could move it so that it can become a portal, I would do that too
@Gazzas89-PGO How is it abuse to place a pin correctly on the object being submitted? I don't know the density rules for all of Niantic's games, and I'm not expected to. My job is to put the pin in the best place for the candidate itself, agnostic of any particular game's rules.
That's a very lame ruling then. Moving a wayspot from one accurate location to another equally accurate location isn't abuse IMO. It's only abuse if you move the point somewhere that is entirely inaccurate.
Or niantic could just fix the inclusion rules so this wouldn't be an issue.
@Ferrothorn88-ING I think it's a perfectly reasonable restriction. Different games have different rules and moving something to improve one game could make another worse. Imagine if I moved a bunch of portals because I wanted to straighten a spine for a field and that caused a couple of stops and the only gym in an area to be removed from PoGo. Can we agree that this outcome would be a net negative?
It works the other direction too. A while ago I looked at an old field plan because I was thinking about organizing a rethrow but three of the portals had been moved so those layers were no longer possible.
If both positions are correct, but people do it so that it won't appear in game, how is that any less abuse than putting it in a position that allows it to appear in a game. You just need to listen to farix complaints about pogo players to know he would be bias against when it comes to that games player base and therefore he would, maybe unintentionally, pick the one that would remove the chance of a stop. I will always try to position the pin, through submission or edit, to get it into as many games as possible, because that's what will make the games more fun, while still making it correct. It may be an unpopular view on here, but I know people who play the games will be a lot happier than if I didn't try to put things in for all games
@NianticGiffard Can this topic be shutdown as it has become a platform for people advocating location edit abuse to gain an advantage on the gameboard?
@Gazzas89-PGO I think it's rare for people to place pins deliberately so that something will not appear in one game. The most common case is that people just put the pin where they think it belongs and don't pay attention to inclusion rules for any specific game.
It is unacceptable to try to justify arbitrarily altering the location information of a particular game as you do.
Such behavior is damaging to the external reputation of the community that plays a particular game.
You should be aware that you are damaging the reputation of the players of the game you love.
@Hosette-ING has some good points that Pokemon-only players probably aren't aware of. Moving wayspots can cause problems in Ingress, such as breaking links. Moreover some positions have an advantage over others for certain fielding strategies or portal control. It seems to be a myth among Pokemon-only players that Ingress players are never harmed by location edits.
Im really not, the only place this "reputation" exists is in this forum and maybe a couple of groups outside. At the end of the day, I'm adverting that if 2 positions are equally correct when am edit comes about, then it helps everyone if it is in every game. Niantic may have called it abuse, but I find it abusive to actively deny people waypoints in their game, you just need to look at how you and farix demonise people who do it and the player base in general. I really couldn't care less if some small petty players don't like it, it's better for everyone all round if all games can get as much advantage from the waypoint map as possible while having the waypoints still he correct
I will add incase people are missing the point I don't advocate moving something correct to something wrong, I'm advocating that if you can have an equally correct place, then it should be moved to help all games.
As for the ingress thing, I've seen people move portals to get them to fit their links, and I've seen people refuse to move portals that are wrong to suit their fields, so it's not just pogo players that do this stuff, seeing as that's the player base that gets demonised
My understanding was that it was exactly that which led to lots of small edits intended to wipe out the opposing team's advantage.
For those who are unaware, I here are two different places where Niantic has forbidden the moving of pins to manipulate one game's board:
From NianticCasey: "The location of the pin should accurately reflect the Wayspot's location in the real-world, regardless of whether it has converted into the desired in-app location or not.
As TheFairx-PGO said, location changes should only be submitted to make the marker more accurate or if the marker were to be closer to a logical point of discovery representing a larger location (e.g. a welcome sign for a large park)."
From the November 2020 AMA: "Since the main goal for Niantic apps, and therefore what the Wayspots should facilitate, is to explore and discover new locations around you, the marker pin should be on top of the object nominated. Submitters can verify the location selected before they submit the nomination but purposely moving the pin to manipulate a specific app’s gameboard is not allowed." [note: there is no direct link to this answer so you'll have to scroll to find it]
From my personal perspective, if there are multiple legitimate locations for a specific object's pin, and there's not one that is objectively better than the others, then it's perfectly reasonable to choose a location that suits your personal preferences. For example, for a playground that's ten meters in diameter you can drop the pin anywhere that's actually on the playground and that's perfectly legit.[1] Once the wayspot is established, though, the valid reasons for moving it are as described above, and moving something into a different cell isn't one of them.
[1] I can hear someone winding up to tell me it has to be on the edge of the playground, but it doesn't. If the playground is 10m in diameter then you have 35-75 meters of not-on-the-playground area to interact with a wayspot if the pin is in the center. For large sporting fields then yes, the pin should be near an edge.
That's a fair point, but you also have to be realistic here. As long as niantic keeps the inclusion rules overly restrictive, it's inevitable that people will attempt to move waypoints around to get them to show up. Doesn't matter how many punishments are doled out, people don't want to miss out on more locations because of some arbitrary rules that really don't make sense. Plus it means niantic has to waste more time trying to both fix and prevent such edits.
If they want to keep location edits purely for fixing inaccuracies that's fine, but if they wish to do so, then they have to make sure people won't feel punished for selecting one accurate, but less favorable, location over another accurate, but more favorable one. Niantic either has to drastically trim down the inclusion rules so they become more inclusive, do away with them entirely, or people will continue to use location edits to get more waypoints on the board. There's just no getting around it otherwise.
@Ferrothorn88-ING I think what I just heard you say, "If a system can be cheated then some people will try to cheat it." I don't disagree, but I've also never met a system that couldn't be cheated. I also don't think that's an argument in favor of cheating the system or accepting that behavior.
As for the inclusion rules, I spent a little bit of time this weekend playing both PoGo and Ingress in an extra-dense area of wayspots that were put up for community day. Ingress handled it with the usual disambiguator. PoGo was an exercise in frustration... it was essentially impossible to tap on the thing I was aiming for.
I don't agree with the opinion you are stating.
Perhaps you are suggesting that all wayspots should be displayed, so they will not try to move them.
But people are greedy and will always try to accumulate wayspots next time.