Does all of Niantic understand how GeoTagging works?

ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭
edited July 2022 in General Discussion

I recently learned of this through my partner from Niantic and decided to check the accuracy of nearby wayspots. I found that each one I checked was in the wrong location.

I took before and after videos and Niantic thinks I’m trying to move the wayspot away from the physical location?!?!?

This is the wayspot in question:

This is where it actually is. I am standing at the center of the stop. You can see the sign 3 feet away from where I’m standing.

This is where it actually is. I am so close to it I could hug it.

This is the response Ashton from Niantic gave me:

”We understand your concern. However, each PokéStop/Gym represents an object in the real world and it is not possible to move these in-game locations away from the objects they represent. From the images and map tools available, the Pokéstop "WB&A Trail Horsepen Branch Trailhead" is positioned at the correct location and we are unable to move it away from the object it represents.”

I do not understand how they are confused? How do you geotag something to be away from where it needs to be? Is it opposite day over there? Is Ashton another Remy bot?

I am so confused and bewildered by their response. What’s the point of all of this if accuracy is not their goal?

Comments

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    Here’s another example.

    This is where the wayspot is currently located.

    This is where the sign is actually located.

    In GO, the stop is up the trail a bit. The actual sign is on the corner of the junction. How are they rejecting verifiable and undeniable evidence?

    It’s irrefutable!

    It shouldn’t change much in either game. It just helps keep the game accurate to the real world. I feel it’s almost a waste of my time to further contribute if they’re not willing to review hard evidence.

    To this, Saylor replied:

    “Based on our research, the PokéStop is at the correct location and does not require any adjustments at this time.”

    What research did they do? Did someone come out here and check a quarter after midnight EST?

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    Oh, and this one is fun, too!

    This is what’s there.

    I spent a half hour in the hot sun trying to find this thing on an obviously large rock or cement slab. Nothing. Even under the plants I couldn’t find it and I dug around.

    The reply from Saylor:

    ”If you have information regarding the correct location of the plaque then please share evidence at your convenience, we will proceed to review the location.”

    The nerve to request I find the evidence of where it is now after dismissing other stuff. I don’t work for them. And they have made fixing wayspots around here difficult. Why would I do more work especially when they reject obvious evidence that proves what is in the game now is wrong?

    I don’t even play there unless I slow down when driving by or the rare occasion pull into it during com day to use my ball plus to auto catch then leave. Parking is usually full there and it’s not worth it to me.

  • Hikaru588-INGHikaru588-ING Posts: 538 ✭✭✭✭

    Did you double check the coordinates on google maps?

    The coordinates listed in your videos come up as in the middle of the trail rather than on edge.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Right, the red pin is the location provided in the "WBA Trail Actual" 39.009260,-76.747290


    The location that you provide for the "fake" is 39.009267,-76.747264


    But the coordinates in the intel map are 39.009309,-76.747344, so they don't match the location that you suggest as the "fake one" and I would say that you have some GPS issues with your phone, or the Google Maps are misplaced in that zone.

    I've checked those coordinates also with OSM and Bing Maps and all of them place them on the side, so it looks like there might be an issue with your phone.

    You got the correct answer from Ashton.


    It's also interesting to look at your "fake" video to notice how easy it's to really provide fake information to Niantic. You're pointing your camera slightly downwards so the sign isn't visible , although you're just 2 meters away from the location where you record the "actual" video https://boulter.com/gps/distance/?from=39.009260%2C-76.747290&to=39.009267%2C-76.747264&units=k

    If these are the kind of proofs that you're providing to Niantic it isn't strange that they might reject your requests

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Note: I've started quoting @Hikaru588-ING , but when I say "you", I mean ZeIdaSymphony-PGO as he's the one that created this thread and provided the videos. I'm not gonna try to edit the previous post or it will end up in moderation as another post that I created with the images inserted into the post.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    Well google maps is not perfect. I was standing at the exact location on the objects. Sorry but the signs are there they are in reality. A digital map is not exact. I don’t mess around when I do this stuff. I looked very weird standing that close to these objects just to set the geotag for the video before I backed up. I know where the physical locations are. Intel is wrong because it’s using data a player put in.

    Google maps is also not accurate as it gets data from Niantic. We have a building that is storage for the swimming pool and has restrooms as well. An abusive wayfinder intentionally called it a community center to make it a wayspot. After it went live in game, Google had a pin for a community center there.

    Thankfully, Google has staff that listens to facts and data, and removed it when evidence was provided.

    I challenge any of you to go to a way spot and stand as on it as you can. The coordinates will not be the same. For the “fake” videos, I was standing on the center of the base of the poke stop or gym. It’s not my fault this game isn’t properly synced as I was using that to best reach the coordinates they use.

    I feel like they don’t want to alter the locations they have because it’s could remove a wayspot or a gym/stop rather. So it’s ok to be “close enough” which doesn’t mean it’s accurate.

    I suppose I could have held my phone too center of the sign when I opened the geotagging app and then backed away. You cannot get more exact than that.

    But if you look at the IITC map, it could appear I’m trying to move things around to make something else appear. Not the case. I literally do not care about this location. It is just conveniently located near me and was set up by another person who is not ocd when it comes to accuracy.

    You should see how I organize my houses in Skyrim. Everything has its place.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    Also, I’m pointing the camera up and down to show the ground and the area around it. Try watching the full video. The only direction I didn’t point it was towards the sky. I got the base of the object and then I went up. Other ones like the bridge locations I did point down to show I’m standing on the bridge itself.

    But nice attempt at accusing me of providing falsified information. You go out there and get different coordinates doing the same method. You’ll be off slightly but my method shows too and bottom. I just don’t understand how you’re confused with me showing the base of the sign that is in the ground as well as the top. I want to show I’m at the location of it, not secretly zooming.

    Again, great job at assuming the worst. I suggest you go and provide proof that my coordinates are completely off. You have the location. It’s a public park operating during the day. If not, then you’ve nothing to say

    But the burden of proof that I am wrong falls upon you. If you want to dispute my claim, prove it. Otherwise, you have no argument. There were roughly 60 court cases in the US recently that all lost. Each made a claim that the defendant was lying but failed to provide any proof. The burden of proof was on the prosecution but each case lost because of the lack of proof/evidence.

    In this situation, I am the prosecution. I saw these were in the wrong locations. They’re close, but they’re not exact. I provided proof they were on the wrong spot. It may be only a few feet apart, but I am still correct. At this point, the defendant would need counter evidence. Close enough is not exact. So I am still correct.

    If you were a pirate with a treasure map, and X marks the spot, you’d want the X to be at the exact location, not 3 feet away. Would be annoying to dig a hole near the treasure and not find it.

    I really hope that these maps aren’t used for anything but video games as I would hate to be sent to the wrong location.

    I spent 30 minutes yesterday hunting a wayspot’s physical location. Couldn’t find it. Tried again today after an hour and a partially correct tip, and found it about 164.042 ft away. Yeah. Definitely “accurate”. 🙄

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    Was referring to this one being away.

    And to give an idea of the distance because it’s hard to imagine it via a map

    That was clearly wayfarer abuse to get a stop added. Cool thing but needs to be accurate.

    This is all over my town unfortunately.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well google maps is not perfect

    But it turns out that the GPS receiver in your phone is perfect. Is that right?

    Sorry but the signs are there they are in reality.

    Yes, of course they are. No one is denying that. Just not in the exact coordinates that you've provided in your video.

    A digital map is not exact

    Right.

    I don’t mess around when I do this stuff

    You don't, but your phone does.

    Intel is wrong because it’s using data a player put in.

    Right, Intel is full of incorrectly placed wayspots. And you have provided a video as a proof to move a wayspot from the side of the road to the middle of it despite the video showing that it's on the side.

    Google maps is also not accurate as it gets data from Niantic.

    Not at all. Google Maps has never used data from Niantic. Niantic uses Google maps, not the other way around.

    After it went live in game, Google had a pin for a community center there.

    Someone went to Google maps and vandalized it in order to get a wayspot in that location as they knew that reviewers use Google Maps during the review of nominations.

    I challenge any of you to go to a way spot and stand as on it as you can. The coordinates will not be the same.

    You're totally right. Every phone will pick up slightly different coordinates, even the same phone will drift although you stand still.

    So why are your coordinates right and Google Maps is wrong when they show that your coordinates are in the middle of the road?

    Why are also your coordinates the right ones vs what it's shown in Open Street Maps and Bing Maps?

    It’s not my fault this game isn’t properly synced as I was using that to best reach the coordinates they use.

    The location where you recorded the video titled "fake" is 39.009267,-76.747264, the location of that wayspot in Intel is 39.009309,-76.747344 that's a difference of 8 meters. That's quite a distance because the distance between the two videos that you've provide as the required movement is 2 meters.

    I feel like they don’t want to alter the locations they have because it’s could remove a wayspot or a gym/stop rather.

    Maybe they don't want to move it because the video that you've provided shows that the wayspot is on the side, so it's in the correct location.

    Also, I’m pointing the camera up and down to show the ground and the area around it. Try watching the full video.

    Surely I've watched it. It's a 9 seconds video where you hold your phone in a downward angle all the time and perform a single 360 loop. The coordinates show that it's 2 meters away from the location where you've recorded the "actual" video and in that case you took care to point the camere higher so the sign is visible.

    But nice attempt at accusing me of providing falsified information

    It's your phone the one that it's providing the coordinates, and those coordinates are in the middle of the road, so stating that Ashton is a bot is not right.

    And you're the one that recorded two videos. One with where you held it at an angle to properly show the sign and another one pointing downwards so the sign isn't visible although you moved only 2 meters from the first location.

    Again, great job at assuming the worst. I suggest you go and provide proof that my coordinates are completely off.

    Google Maps, Open Street Maps and Bing maps show that your coordinates are in the middle of the road. The video shows that the sign is on the side of the road, so you've provided all the proofs that your coordinates are wrong.

    But the burden of proof that I am wrong falls upon you. If you want to dispute my claim, prove it.

    It's quite easy: anyone can see that the coordinates that you provide in your "actual" video are 39.009260,-76.747290, that video shows that the sign is on the side of the road, and using those coordinates in any map shows that they are in the middle of the road, so the current location for the wayspot is right and it shouldn't be moved away.

    I saw these were in the wrong locations.

    You saw that your phone displayed those wayspots in the wrong location, and instead of thinking that the GPS in your phone isn't perfect you're claiming that everyone else is wrong.

    So I am still correct.

    You're using an imperfect device (your phone), so you're not correct. If one map had that location wrong and the others agreed with you that your coordinates are the side of the road I could trust you, but the three maps show the same features for that location.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    There are other things to do than troll random posts on forums. :)

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Right, the red pin is the location provided in the "WBA Trail Actual" 39.009260,-76.747290

    The location that you provide for the "fake" is 39.009267,-76.747264

    But the coordinates in the intel map are 39.009309,-76.747344, so they don't match the location that you suggest as the "fake one" and I would say that you have some GPS issues with your phone, or the Google Maps are misplaced in that zone.

    You got the correct answer from Ashton.

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, Google maps isn't perfect. Most of its images are high altitude aircraft views, so not exactly straight up. Even if it's a snapshot from a satellite - the satellite is never exactly straight over every inch of land - so it has some distortion too.

    OTOH the GPS on your phone gets your longitude latitude by triangulating your actual location with 3 satellites (4 if you also want altitude).

    Every now and then, Google will recalibrate an area. I've seen portals jump. Like, I used to be able to reach one by car on the road, and now I can't. Or vice versa.

    This is a problem for Lightship. Lightship is selling the database to all kinds of developers, who want their apps to do whatever-thing when their users are actually there. Yet if I stand on the item I'm nominating, and (thru my phone GPS) the coordinates are set perfectly... reviewers will see it on a somewhat distorted map, and potentially move it to be incorrect.

    For example, a Little Free Library, close to a neighborhood clubhouse, on the far side of the parking lot from any houses. If you look at the Intel map by satellite, the pin is placed perfectly. If you actually go there, the waypoint is squarely in someone's front yard.

    SOLUTION(ish): Take multiple scans of offset wayspots. Eventually Niantic will use them to calibrate their real location. They already did this in NYC, Seattle, and more. It didn't work so well on larger objects - the Space Needle and the Empire State Building wayspots moved to the place where people stood to scan them. So Lightship working to improve the code - before they roll it out to other places where they have app developer customers.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    The funny thing is with all the mislocated stuff is that they now appear in the correct location in GO as they do in the real world. The junction sign for Saddlebrook West Trail appears at the corner of said junction. It now appears exactly that way in GO. It’s pretty much the same for the others that were changed. Their locations in GO match their real-world locations. That’s all I care about. Google can figure itself out.

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