Not sure where to go about this

ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭
edited August 9 in General Discussion

Not too long ago, I was trying to figure out an issue with @NianticGiffard in a DM. I reported potential wayfarer abuse where the wayfinder intentionally changes the pin during nomination/voting, to put it in a location that will cause it to only appear in Ingress. Giffard said they’d investigate.

They later said they found 4 accounts that were guilty of it and they were punished. But there was something odd about it.

My partner got hit with a 10 day wayfarer suspension, no email, for alleged abuse. I got hit with a 60. My partner is fine. Niantic’s loss for not getting any reviews done.

I got the email to an address I do not use that is not attached to a game. I didn’t even see it until almost 2 weeks later, and it said this:

”We have confirmed that you have been submitting incorrect or inappropriate descriptions for existing Wayspots that do not meet our criteria. As a result of this violation, your Wayfarer account has been suspended for 60 days.”

I replied but no response. Neither of us have made inappropriate or incorrect descriptions for wayspots.

There were some that were rejected by Niantic as they all came back rejected at once, some from months ago.

The problem is, each edit had reasons whether be location or a text one.

a) Location appeared to be placed in the street (in-game) so was edited to move it off of the street.

b) Wayspot was in wrong spot

c) Wayspot was fake but it was an older portal/stop so could be renamed to something else that would accurately represent a legit object in that cell. This wayspot had a google maps location that was forged by the player to appear legit for others to vote yes on it We had it removed from Google Maps using geotagged evidence.

d) Wayspot in wrong location which was day 1 Ingress old, but would vanish if corrected so did edit of nearby tennis courts wayspot to another side of the tennis court which is still correct. Basically, the first would be correct, but in a new cell while other was jumping to the first’s cell but still being on a different edge of the tennis courts.


For a) we didn’t know about IITC or geotagging and did not know that the in-game streets are not accurate with the real streets. It would stay in the same cell, so it was a cosmetic move.

For b) I went out a geotagged each wayspot and all were fixed in that area, including this. The move we originally suggested was corrected by Niantic. We didn’t know about geotagging then and didn’t know the modify/removal form could move wayspots. Both methods achieved the correction.

For c) we have an open DM with @NianticGiffard and they are investigating. In a similar situation, Giffard had us submit title/description/photo/location edits and if they were rejected, we’d appeal, tag Giffard, and they’d do the rest. We didn’t want to delete a wayspot when we can save it and adjust it. We were following instructions.

For d) I geotagged the wayspot showing it was in the wrong spot. Satellite also verified that and the wayspot’s main image also did. It was moved by Niantic. However, Niantic did not adjust the wayspot already in that cell, so 2 stops share a cell. Our intent was to correct the first error while not causing a loss of a stop which would have downgraded the gym there. They were both in the same park but the one that needed to be moved was being moved to an occupied cell. That move wouldn’t have been noticed but the tennis court stop would have. The intention was to not disrupt the gameplay for the locals there while still retaining accuracy.


In each situation, Niantic force-rejected our edits, but those edits were then completed by Niantic via the modify/remove form anyway. We achieved the same results in a different way.

So why are we being punished? My partner only had 10 days. That punishment should be removed from his account.

My 60 day punishment should be removed as well. I’m afraid that the obviously thorough investigation will find any future legit edits I do as inappropriate. I don’t mess around with this stuff.

I responded to the July 20th email on August 3rd. I’ve received nothing back. I asked in-game support and they closed the ticket without a reply. I requested they contact Kyne from Niantic to respond to the ticket so they had context of the edits. I cannot access wayfarer to use the help chat. So where do I go to get someone to compare the edits or simply ask about other edits I may have forgotten about?

My partner and I spent the better part of summer cleaning up a neighborhood that had major changes. All of the fitness stations were upgraded so all of the corresponding wayspots needed to reflect this. We followed Giffard’s instructions and geotagged what we needed plus did whatever else they said. We had 3 duplicate wayspots removed from the games. Players usually like to keep duplicates there and keep quiet about them. We however care about accuracy.

Clearly we are working to clean things up. Many players, unfortunately, would instead try to keep the old wayspots and have new wayspots of the new stations up as well. Everyone wants more in their hometowns. Why would we abuse the system if we are clearly cleaning up the games?


What do I do about this situation @NianticVK or anyone? I have the ticket number of the email. I also have the ticket numbers associated with the edits and Giffard is working on part C. There could be more corrections made but I don’t know. If we could get an “edit reason” box, even if only Niantic saw it, we could provide context.

I no longer have the time for wayfarer but I would like to have no strikes. I do not think it is correct that Kyne, or whoever, to assume the worst and punish. They don’t know why we made those edits. They didn’t come out here to check each location. They also didn’t ask us. An investigation is expected before punishment. We’d have gladly shared why.


We still have 20 title, maybe 12 description, 2 location, and 1 photo edits pending.


Anyway, I don’t know where to go with this. In-game doesn’t work, can’t use wayfarer chat, the adjust/modify isn’t right, and the ban appeal form is only for game bans, not wayfarer access issues.

Post edited by NianticLC on

Comments

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Also, just realized that back when I reviewed, I didn’t understand certain pin placements. I am autistic (high-functioning), so some things do not cross my mind like “normal” peoples’ minds do.

    When I think of a location in where to pin it, I think the center of it. So middle of sportsball field, middle of pool, middle of athletic court, et cetera. The middle or center is the best spot.

    However, what I failed to realize was that places like pools or courts could cause interference in activities there as well as a safety risk (fall in pool of trying to spin a stop that’s sitting in the water). The edge or area set aside for these things is good enough.

    The intent was to be accurate, not to cause problems. Some people just do not have the ability to think like others do (me for example). Simple concepts sometimes have to be explained to me.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ZeIdaSymphony-PGO I think direct dialogue with @NianticGiffard is your best way forward.

    The email must have been linked at some point to some Niantic account it’s the only way they could have it.

    what you describe of several submissions rejected in a batch is typical of what happens with a suspension…..I would guess one of them will be the cause.

    For someone with ASD it can be very easy to interpret something or write in a way that you think is clear but others interpret differently. Something like this could easily have happened. So talking directly with someone would be best.

    it is typical of Niantic to view suspensions purely as a punishment and not also an opportunity to educate about what the issue was.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ZeIdaSymphony-PGO wrote:

    d) Wayspot in wrong location which was day 1 Ingress old, but would vanish if corrected so did edit of nearby tennis courts wayspot to another side of the tennis court which is still correct. Basically, the first would be correct, but in a new cell while other was jumping to the first’s cell but still being on a different edge of the tennis courts.

    Commenting on this specific item only...

    Moving something that is in a correct location in order to manipulate the board for one specific game is considered abuse. Reference the first: "location changes should only be submitted to make the marker more accurate or if the marker were to be closer to a logical point of discovery representing a larger location (e.g. a welcome sign for a large park)." Reference the second: "Submitters can verify the location selected before they submit the nomination but purposely moving the pin to manipulate a specific app’s gameboard is not allowed."

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Well, this one the initial move of the one was to make the game more accurate. The other move was to retain the same amount of accuracy due to the change of the first move.

    The intent was not manipulation. It was to avoid a negative change by the first move. I guess when you move something it can downgrade something else. Normally, it’s not an issue, but because the area is so small, I saw we could retain what has been normal there with only some slight moves.

    I understand why they don’t like it, I guess, but the intentions were pure. It was in hope to avoid complaints if a loss did happen. However, Niantic made the main move using geotagging, but they allowed both wayspots to remain in GO while occupying the same cell. I didn’t know that was ok.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    The email address was originally in GO, but it got linked to something sending it constant spam so I changed important things over. All of my wayfarer submissions and game stuff go to the new email address now. It’s weird that they retain the original.

    Not all of the submissions were rejected. Some are still there between my partner and I, but we can’t remove those as we for the changes made via geotagging anyway.

    Sometimes I hate having ASD. My perception of the world is not the same. I over explain in hopes to not cause confusion or misinterpretation, but it still gets it wrong. The steps I would take to explain “summations” in statistics are just as intricate and detailed as I explain anything else. I know what it’s like to be thought something but not understand it. I hope to avoid confusion for others if I explain it in more details.

    And actions without anything makes me sad. Niantic has not given me an actual explanation, only vague information. I cannot process that. If I did something bad or wrong, I need to know exactly what it was, or I may make the same mistake again. To avoid that, I sometimes never go near whatever I think it is, to be safe. But that may have consequences or simply cause me to miss out.

    In a couple of the geotagged edits I made using the modify/remove form, I would get a response that said I was the one trying to move the wayspot to the wrong location. Yes, it was a copy & pasted response, but it was not what I was doing. Yuri, who deals with those forms did give me a better, more detailed reply, but I don’t always get her.

    What makes it more difficult is that in these situations, I can have a breakdown because of something, and I freak out. I can’t control it, and I seem to be watching myself say things I don’t normally mean to say. It’s pure rage fueled by pain and frustration I guess.

    My point to that is that I can get upset and while I have avoided hostility, clearly there is pain written throughout the email. Instead of trying to resolve it, they have ignored me completely. The wrong is never righted. Nothing is resolved. And I’m left feeling shame because of my uncontrollable reaction.

    What is a “bonus” is one of my ASD superpowers. I have memories going back over 30 years of similar situations. They’re not happy either. A lot of pain or subject of bullying. A dumb one that comes to mind is my being kicked out of a forum of friends because I was “too stupid for not understanding why the sequel to Banjo Kazooie was called ‘Banjo Twooie’”.

    And I would love to have Giffard really spend time to help all of this be resolved, but Giffard is so busy trying to do everything they do, and I don’t want to be a burden to them.

    Also, I was planning on doing more geotagging to correct wayspots, both are trail systems that have incorrect locations. One has like 50 and I feel it is wayfarer grid abuse to make them appear when they shouldn’t have due to those rules. But no matter how much I work to help keep the game accurate or clean it up, that doesn’t help. I still am dismissed like I am a burden or useless. Nobody else seems work so hard to remove a duplicate or retire a wayspot due to the change of the location. Accuracy is extremely important to me!

    Thank you for your reply @Elijustrying-ING ❤️❤️❤️

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 365 ✭✭✭✭

    You’re not going to convince the people in this forum that what you are doing is correct because ultimately you are trying to manipulate the game board. I’m not suggesting either course of action but IF you want maximum pokestops, I suggest you leave things the way they are. IF you want maximum accuracy, you’re going to have to accept the fact that you’re going to lose pokestops.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    I have said many times I want accuracy. There is no confusion in that. And intent should be considered when editing something. As long as accuracy is retained, it should be ok. This is why I really want Niantic to add an “edit reason” box, even for only them to see, so they can evaluate and avoid unnecessary hardships caused by their actions.

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 365 ✭✭✭✭

    You may want them to have an “edit reason” box, but they don’t. And if you add text telling people where to move pins, you will get warning emails.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    That’s not the same thing. I do see people do that though.

    Edit Reason box would be only for Niantic. But to use it appropriately for wayfinder, you give specific options. Make a drop down with “reasons to move” and when one is selected, you add additional verification such as a geotagged image or maybe a link to a video showing that.

    We would have to be careful with it but it could reduce the amount of irresponsible wayfinders.

    I dislike using titles/descriptions to make edit reasons. But there is a clear difference in “i dislike the term Tot lot” vs “this is in the wrong location. Here is the evidence.”

    It could add to the efficiency and reduce repeat edits in hopes it will eventually pass.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    putting aside the rights and wrongs, I think Niantic does not do enough to understand and support people.

    There is little by way of consideration or adjustment for how people may react or be impacted on by decisions especially those without explanation.

    This may be the way things are in gaming, I don’t know. But wayfarer is not a game. It has a wide range of people, and they should be considering the consequences ( even if unintentional) of decisions and how they are delivered.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With regards to c), I pointed out to you that such edits are considered abuse https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/34434/new-photo-rejected and you keep on with your idea that as your goal is pure, the act of changing one wayspot into another isn't abuse. But it seems that some people that reviewed your edits don't agree with your point of view and follow the guidelines provided by Niantic and might have reported you.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    And yet you ignore (again) that I am following instructions from Giffard. You live on these forums. I’m sure you know who that is. We already converted one stop to another. They were advised the least messy option is to send the edits in, and if rejected, tag them in an appeal.

    This situation is no different and we are appealing the process. You aren’t part of the DMs so you have zero say in it. So politely stop replying to my discussions as you aren’t listening. My partner and I are doing exactly what we are told by a Niantic staff member. Niantic is the company that makes GO, Ingress, runs these forums, and Wayfarer. You are not privy to those conversations so you have zero say. Politely, your input or opinion on past discussions is not needed.

    I will repeat: we are following the instructions of a Niantic staff member. We already proved the wayspot represents a fake location submitted by abuse. And to avoid damaging the area by removing the wayspot which could alter the gym/stop ratio, we were advised to take another route.

    This project we are working on is very big in regards to wayfarer. We only need opinions from Niantic. Unless you are suddenly NianticWheelTrekker, you are not needed here. We decided to go directly to Niantic with this issue. All posts on the forums regarding a rejection are simply a formality to share the appeal and then they do what they do. But it has to go through wayfarer first as is policy. We are following policy and iterations of it by Niantic. I cannot make it any more clear that we are doing as instructed by Niantic.

    Thank you.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    They should. As we discussed mental health, some people depend on games like this. Getting punishments for something that wasn’t bad can have severe consequences for the victim.

    If I had been punished incorrectly and ignored a few years ago, I’d hate to see how I’d react. It wouldn’t have been anger, but I could have been hurt.

    This is why gaming companies are very careful with their actions. They are staffed to deal with people. From my understanding, Niantic does research but hired people to make a game but tries to have that same staff also work with people? Something about removing the community managers that were in Ingress. That was before my time.

    It would be nice to have some trained or educated in relations with people and whatnot, to be the communications between player and developer. Developers should never have to deal with us directly. They just need a summary of feedback submitted by staff that deals with the community directly.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    This is regards to a).

    You can see the gym is on the edge there appearing slightly in the street. The move was to attempt to move it slightly back but using satellite, we can’t compare to how accurate the game map is. The bike path itself is in that area and the wayspot is not only the actual sign. The sign is irrelevant. The path itself is the point of interest. We could move it back significantly more and it would be accurate.

    But it was moved slightly. And if using IITC, it is moving deeper into its cell, not out of it. So nothing really changes, it just looks better to be off the street as is the actual location is.

    Problem is, wayfarer is so behind that I forgot if or when I did it and my partner did it before or after me, and perhaps another friend as well.

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 365 ✭✭✭✭

    You’re not going to convince the people on this forum that you are doing the right thing. Iitc is not an approved plug in, nor is using it to determine where to place your pins. I know that you feel you are correct in this endeavor, but don’t expect others to feel the same way. As a matter of fact, no one was responding to the post and you felt the need to bring it up again, to no avail.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭
    edited August 6

    Politely, I did not ask for opinions. I asked how do I report an issue. Clearly only 1 person read the question. Forums are for reading. Please do that. Your opinions are not my concern. You can have them, but my question has nothing to do with what others think.

    We are already working with Niantic directly in DMs, so in a sense, we are skipping the opinions that do not pertain to our situation b keep adding them all you want, we are doing as instructed by Niantic. In a previous comment, I explained who Niantic was. They give instructions, we follow, whatever you all say is cool, but is ineffective.

    Niantic makes the general rules and they can make exceptions under certain circumstances. A Niantic staff member agreed we met an exception, so we are following instructions beyond that. Our situation is not ordinary.

    Thank you and have a nice day. :)

    PS. I am not trying to sound rude. What you’re saying is legit but you do not have the full story. You do not need it. Niantic sets rules for us to follow. They do not have as many restrictions. So they tell us what to do, and we do it based on what they can do. It’s very simple.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ZeIdaSymphony-PGO If moving a wayspot causes another to disappear then that is perfectly fine. We're not supposed to move pins that are in correct locations, only if they are currently inaccurate or if we are moving the pin to a more logical place of discovery like the entrance sign for a park. Your intentions may have been good but for this particular case they also violated Niantic's instructions to us.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Most move to try and make another appear. That is abuse, yes. But they are also likely moving it to an incorrect location.

    A tennis court has multiple correct locations. 1 vs the other does not matter. Honestly, I care nothing about that park. Signal is bad there, but it’s unfair to those who can play there.

    But your reply is not the point of my OP. I’m aware of these things. Don’t care to hear them again. I’m hoping someone knows how to handle the situation in discussing this with Niantic. So far, only one has said something. Most of you had said things that can go to another discussion. I know these things, but again, working directly with Niantic, not with random people.

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 365 ✭✭✭✭

    @NianticGiffard i world also like to start a private conversation with you about something that is important to me. I, too, dislike talking to random people.

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Please keep the trolling down. We had a change happen that required over 40 edits in one area. Instead of asking here and getting replies from people that aren’t Niantic, we asked Niantic directly for the best course of action.

    You're not contributing to this discussion so I don’t see your point in being here. I asked a question and gave context. How is any of this confusing to you?

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ZeIdaSymphony-PGO Other people may also have complex situations. I have my own set right now that I'm trying to figure out how to handle.

    I understand that you have ASD, so from one neurodivergent person to another... you may not recognize that public conversations will almost always have responses that you don't think contribute to the dialog. This is the nature of open online discussions. It is better to ignore those comments than to tell people that you don't welcome their participation. I say this as someone who has been participating in electronic forums of one type or another for about 40 years and has seen the same patterns more times than I can count.

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And you keep on ignoring that everyone that reported you for abuse were following directions from Giffard that trying to change one wayspot into another should be reported as abuse.

    If you don't want anyone to comment on your topics, then keep all your conversations as DM with Giffard.

    You're always arguing that you should be exempt from the same rules as everyone else because you have ASD, do you really think that you're the only person with mental issues? Why do you expect that anyone that has been told that they should report as abuse several of the actions that you've described would ignore your actions because "you've been told in a DM to do so"?

    As long as your nominations and edits go through the normal wayfarer process, expect more people to keep on reporting you as abuse because there's no label in your edits "Giffard told me to do this", and then it's up to Niantic and their abuse team to check that they shouldn't punish you although you're trying to break the rules provided to everyone else. Request Giffard to processs your changes directly without going through the normal channel.

    The good news for everyone else is that if they want to do something that isn't allowed by the rules, the solution is simple: request a DM conversation with Giffard and then you have a wildcard to do whatever you want

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Nobody reported me for abuse. I reported abuse for another player that has been doing so this year. But they found other edits which were similar to abuse, by me. So while the one person was dealt with, i got hit in the crossfire. That’s the problem when you are in discussion with one person and another investigates not knowing what’s going on.

    None of my edits were reported either. It was done before they were in voting. This is information that you do not need to go. Stop going off topic. You’re not contributing to anything but just stacking your number of unnecessary comments on forums here.

    There were no reports of abuse against me or my own. That’s not the issue. But you should know that as the forums are your life as you read through every post. So since you read through my original post, you should be in topic and commenting on a way to resolve this.

    And a DM is not the way to do everything. Again, you do not know anything. Because you need to be repeated to, we saw the larger issue of the major work we had to do to update the neighborhood, so we asked how to go about it in a DM, and we were given instructions based on all the work that we were going to have to do.

    I complained about someone else who has been punished for abusing in the past. But the confusion came in and they didn’t look for what i described. The abuse wasn’t in-game, it was during the voting/nomination process. But the one I reported it to wasn’t the one to investigate.

    Please stop wasting my time. You are not contributing to the conversation or the actual topic. You are a troll and anyone that isn’t part of the company with as many posts as you clearly enjoys ruffling feathers or pretending they know everything. I get that you want to feel important wanting to have your opinion heard by everyone, but we don’t need to hear it.

    I really don’t want to even see your name anymore if you can’t be helpful. A brief browse of your history is constant nitpicking and derailing conversations that do not pertain to you.

    So either provide the correct answer on which option to use to contact Niantic to have them see that all the changes they saw as abuse in fact weren’t and were changed by them via my recommendations using the modify/removal form, or go read the rules on proper forum etiquette.

    The topic of this discussion is about the correct method to contact Niantic. That’s it. The correct method to contact Niantic. One more time.

    THE CORRECT METHOD TO CONTACT NIANTIC.

    Anything else is off topic. I didn’t ask for what was abuse. I know what they think was abuse. But team A made the exact changes I needed while team B saw it as abuse. I was correct and punished for it? Do you understand this or will you continue to go off topic?

  • ZeIdaSymphony-PGOZeIdaSymphony-PGO Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Yeah, from my studies with psychology, some personalities feel the need to speak up and have a say in something that they aren’t involved in. Usually comes from parents always making them be quiet at home. Once they’re adults, they have to speak all the time, even if they’ve nothing to contribute. It’s unfortunate that they aren’t even aware.

    There are also those that need to feel important so they use forums and try to be known by behaving as such. But it doesn’t matter if they’re liked, they just want to be known because they weren’t in childhood.

    Only one person was able to give an answer they felt was the best while others nitpick over context, and can’t even get it correctly. What they think happened is not what actually happened.

    I just need to know where to go to inquire about the travesty. We got most of the changes made via the form method because they were correct. But the team that changed them is not the one that assumed abuse. Ban appeals don’t deal with this. In-game support doesn’t either. Can’t access wayfarer chat for this. That leaves forums in either a post or a DM. I suppose there’s Twitter but I have yet to see them do much there.

    It is just funny that punishments went out for making legit changes, and then I submitted those changes to Niantic via another method, plus a few more changes, and they decided what they would change. They few extras didn’t all change but the original changes did change. So they agreed with me after all. But my issue is, since I was right, why does a punishment still stand? There’s no communication between teams I guess. But that’s what happens when you don’t have a method of providing context or a reason why. And that reason why, only Niantic should see. Just don’t tell the submitters so Niantic can find who is actually pandering and who is actually providing tangible evidence.

    And it is difficult to ignore those comments but they intentionally are used to derail the full discussion and then the issue is never resolved. Perhaps they want their issues resolved first so they try to shut down the others? Not sure why if it’s first come first serve.

    I also do not understand why people go to other discussions. If I see a topic, I ask myself if I have an answer, if I had a similar experience, and/or how I resolved my issue. That’s how you contribute to discussions. What you don’t do is go into every discussion you find, read a few words, and obsessively cling to them.

    I had hoped that if I presented my issue, added context, someone who had a similar experience would pop up, tell me how they fixed their situation, and whether or not it was resolved. Unfortunately, a certain “forum hero” really likes my discussions and they think or assume that one is fully related to the other. Assumptions are bad. The full details of “why” are not necessary here. That only is important to the ones who can see if it can be fixed.

This discussion has been closed.