Wayfarer Criteria Challenge - Discussion



  • PkmnTrainerJ-INGPkmnTrainerJ-ING Posts: 4,811 Ambassador

    Sorry I realised I tagged the wrong Jim person in my post but I’m not editing as that’ll vanish.

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Everyone’s always so adamant about following the rules “Niantic says this, Niantic says that” We’ll, here, Niantic has said something that you don’t like. Let’s see how you respond.

  • PkmnTrainerJ-INGPkmnTrainerJ-ING Posts: 4,811 Ambassador

    Of course. Glad to see you got the updated rota.

    Monday has changed to Pools and every third Wednesday is PRP vs multi residence

  • The26thDoctor-PGOThe26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not at all, I'm more than happy to point out that Niantic don't even know their own rules so I'm not sure how they expect others to follow them.

  • BeyondSour-INGBeyondSour-ING Posts: 29 ✭✭✭

    Don’t be naive, people make their own rules and will keep doing so. This has to be the 10th time they say very explicitly that all trail markers are valid, yet they’re difficult to pass. They said more than a year ago that malls are great places to be social, yet they’re difficult to pass. This is also the second time they’ve said parks with no physical markers are valid, yet they’re difficult to pass. I guess change takes time but all of this is just common sense lmao.

    and lol at niantic doesn’t know their own rules. They make the rules, it’s your job to take the information and adapt

  • Plantgems-PGOPlantgems-PGO Posts: 18 ✭✭✭

    @NianticTintino-ING I submitted a Little Free Library as my submission. I used the Little Free Library category, but I mentioned private residence as the reason for the submission. Does that count? One of the big point for the residence property was Little Free Libraries.

  • auntergoaf-PGOauntergoaf-PGO Posts: 159 ✭✭✭✭

    The criteria are translated in Japanese to mean park and open space, not park and commercial complex. If "plaza" is meant for a commercial complex, this is a mistranslation that has been overlooked all along. If it's a mistranslation, can you fix it? @NianticTintino-ING

  • MargariteDVille-INGMargariteDVille-ING Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2022

    Those descriptions are very thoughtful and fun - thank you!

    The retail store list sign at the street -- is a surprise. No one gathers at the sign. It's just advertising. But ok!

    I would have thought art on an apartment wall would be too close to the family that lives on the other side of the wall. But now I know it's ok.

    For the unlabeled parks, I think we (reviewers) can tell. A blank piece of grass (even with a utility tower) is not a park. Add a picnic table and permanent grill, and maybe it's a park - explain it to me/reviewers.

    PS It's also pretty funny when Niantic gets caught by their own crazy censor. 😂

  • TheZodiac007-PGOTheZodiac007-PGO Posts: 860 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2022

    This is great @NianticTintino-ING. As long as word spreads like wildfire so people reviewing know what meets criteria. Some of this information is brand new information for all of us & it is great GREAT news!! Great questions everyone. Much needed clarification

  • AgentX1976-INGAgentX1976-ING Posts: 555 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely Niantic might need to review a bit in NSW and purge the generic ones down there.

  • pokemon5park-PGOpokemon5park-PGO Posts: 2 ✭✭✭

    As far as I can see from the answers, many of them were written that needed a story behind them. Advanced players would nominate it

    However, I felt that it might be difficult to demand that much from those who are just starting out.

    I believe that the October 2020 revision of the regulations was to alleviate the need for historical backgrounds such as this one.

    Is this time going backwards and tightening is the purpose?

  • pokestophope-INGpokestophope-ING Posts: 72 ✭✭✭

    It's Kent County Council. And Hampshire County Council. Please see attached image to see how big those are

  • The26thDoctor-PGOThe26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They could have looked them up.

    Tip 1 - Don't search for the counties of Kest or Humpshire.

  • B00JL5YI7G-PGOB00JL5YI7G-PGO Posts: 244 ✭✭✭


    Will the full text be announced on official accounts such as Twitter? Even if you can't reply, I think that many people will be able to see it and be released from the closed world.

  • NvlblNm-PGONvlblNm-PGO Posts: 153 ✭✭✭

    Thank you for all the clarifications - these posts are all admittedly more in-depth than I expected, and while I feel like many of these topics have already been clarified ad-nauseam, I look forward to seeing those clarifications added to the wayfarer help pages and enforced when reviewers ignore them.

    I’m unfortunately confused about some of the statements here, and I want to know whether I’m reading too much into what you’re saying or not.

    […] we decided the location is not intended to be accessed safely by pedestrians. There are no sidewalks and the grassy area looks like private property. Furthermore, any visitors to that grassy area may obstruct the entrance and it may encourage trespassing or present danger from the nearby traffic which makes us consider this ineligible.

    This looks to me like a suburban area bordering on rural. It’s hard to tell from a single picture, but for the sake of discussion, can we say that as a reviewer I have looked at the local area, determined that it is largely residential with comparatively low speed limits, not very densely populated, and made a judgement call that it is unlikely to experience heavy traffic?

    Are you saying that having made these judgement calls, I should consider this area unsafe for walking because there are no sidewalks? I walk through similar looking suburbs very frequently, and I personally feel like I’m able to do so safely. I might step onto the grass if I see or hear a car coming, but I generally don’t - they aren’t typically moving very fast (if they were, several of my neighbors might be yelling at them to slow down) and they tend to be watching for people like me who are walking alongside the road due to the lack of sidewalks. I frequently pass other people also out for walks, sometimes with dogs or children in tow. I usually see at least one person, often a kid, riding a bike or a scooter. It seems to me like these activities can be safely undertaken in areas like this, despite the lack of sidewalks.

    I certainly understand the concern that depending on local laws, this particular nomination may encourage trespassing, but your statement sounds like it speaks much more broadly about the safety of suburban and rural roads and not just to the potential private residential property concerns with this particular nomination.

    If the local laws clarified that this was on public property and not on private property, the concern over visitors obstructing the entryway or being in danger of traffic also seems unfounded to me. I am lucky to have a Gym nearby - I’ve been in it for nearly 9 days now. While I enjoy having the ability to play games without driving into town, I’ve never seen people crowd around this POI. It is very rare that more than one person is playing at this location at a given time, even when there are raids. When multiple people do show up, it never approaches the number I can encounter when raiding in more populated areas, and no one stands in the middle of the road staring at their phones, they step off to the side if they aren’t actively walking by.

    Are you saying that the small number of people who might be at this POI at a given time are unsafe? Or that there are concerns about this being private property? I understand the private property concerns, but it seems like you’re saying this area is unsafe, and I don’t personally think it is.

    […] many Free Little Libraries are on a sidewalk outside of apartment buildings and are on municipal or communal property, this one is placed at the end of private property onto a street which makes it a potentially dangerous location. Similarly to the dice submission above, any visitors to this “sidewalk” or “car off-loading” area may encourage trespassing or create a dangerous traffic situation making it ineligible.

    If you’ve read everything above (congrats! I know that was a bit long-winded - ready for more?) you can probably guess my concern here too!

    Looking at this picture, I definitely don’t think this is a rural area - it’s solidly suburban. The street is significantly wider, with room for cars to park on either side. As is common with many suburban areas, there are no sidewalks. Nonetheless, it looks safely walkable to me, and like the type of area where I might even see a basketball hoop against the curb - occasionally with people participating in high-risk activities like playing basketball. In these types of suburban areas, I encounter even more walkers and bikers. It’s rare that they will even step off the road for cars - they’re relatively infrequent, moving comparatively slowly, and have more than enough room to safely navigate past pedestrians, parked cars, and the occasional pick-up game (they do tend to stop for those occasional cars since they can take up far more of the road).

    Again, you talk not about the potential PRP concerns with this location, but about the safety concerns. I have trouble seeing them.

    I can understand the concern that this particular LFL may be on PRP, but if we were to assume that in a different nomination, a reviewer could determine that the location is not PRP, it sounds like you are saying that such a library would be unsafe for pedestrians to access. It seems to me like you are saying this location is unsafe, but it looks exactly like many of the places I walk frequently, and in my opinion, quite safely.

    Is your feedback for these examples about single-family residences? Or about a lack of sidewalks causing these locations not to have pedestrian access? The first concern makes sense to me. The second makes me think you have never seen a suburb or rural area.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Emmmm, am I missing something with the trail markers? The photos mostly shoe public footpath markers, but the explanation talks about markers of planets?

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just a wee slight correction, in Scotland you are allowed to walk over fields, we have right to roam, so ondont actually think those public footpath signs exist. But I do get its easier to say UK rather than Wales, England and ni lol

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I 100% would have accepted that, it isn't borderline to me, even without the context it'd clearly a point of interest

  • niktero-PGOniktero-PGO Posts: 356 ✭✭✭✭

    These criteria updates have been very enlightening and especially useful with actual pictures of submissions to reference rather than imagined ideal scenarios. I do still have some questions though.

    The idea that even parks without a sign don't actually need to have some focal object is interesting but it opens the door to what actually is a park. Particularly in that case of an apartment park, where do we draw the line between common use lawn and a "park"? Is is reasonable to have the playground, the tables, and the area as a whole, a waypoint in this little apartment complex? Also for the picnic tables, is one enough? If the park has 10 tables all in different areas then are they all equally places to socialize or is this more for collections of a few tables which allow larger groups to meet.

    I really like the clarity on those "generic" trail markers as well as the expansion to what a trail marker can be. For all those saying a public footpath is equal to a USA sidewalk I would add the point that this footpath has an actual sign to use as a placemark and that makes all the difference. A regular sidewalk has no signs and so nothing to tie a waypoint to just the same as a random stretch of trail deep in the woods even though both encourage pedestrian exercise.

    Still not sure how comfortable I am with this new definition of "plaza" as a culturally important collection of businesses but I will think more on it. I think this one is really going to come down on the submitter doing a good job convincing people this plaza is special.

    The bit at the end of the first trail marker clarification is rather naive. "For the last trail marker, we narrowed in on the difficulty it might be to prove the actual location of this since it may or may not always be on street view. This highlights the importance of local Explorers who know the area, may have visited this area, or walked past it." The way the current local review areas are set up the chance that I have of reviewing anything I have actually seen within an hour's drive of my regular play area is nearly 0. To actually have the chance of people who had been to this location getting to review it Niantic would have to reduce the review area so small that they would be almost guaranteeing local review group abuse. It would be much better to address the fact that in cases like that trailmarker it is the duty of the submitter to convince someone who has never been there that it could exist at this location. Whether that is by using a supporting photo that shows the marker and some object visible from space, including a link to a map that shows that trail, or creating a photosphere using the streetview app so reviewers will see the marker in the review screen map.

    Thank you for this criteria challenge! I had doubts about how useful it would be considering the same questions that have been clarified for years would probably still be at the top but having real visual examples helped a lot. The detailed explanation on the thinking for the different scenarios was wonderful.

  • randombeard-INGrandombeard-ING Posts: 22 ✭✭✭

    I believe the biggest problem is that in England there are literally millions of footpaths signs, 90% are just right of way... they are not a trail, no story, just telling people yes that is a right of way.

    In little old England there are at least 140,000 miles of footpaths or enough to walk 328 lengths of the country. Allowing all will just flood the map with literally millions of way points and 95% will not be unique, no story and stop decent and interesting things come into games.

    The example Tintin showed, the reason behind the area name (Kent County Council) on just proves the council has put up a footpath sign up and you have right of way to walk in that direction, doesn't make it any more interesting.

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