When you submit a stop inside a game, the game board's rules should grey out any area that the submission wouldnt enter the game you are submitting from. Letting people in Ingress know if its too close to an ingress portal by greying out 20'. or in PMG greying out the cell.
This stance is highly debated on this forum. But I will continue to defend it. Because many objects like a building, playcenter, baseball field are BIG where if you knew your games local, you could place a perfectly valid pin and it would show up.
My personal experience was at a local park. I submitted 2 play areas and a baseball field. Only to not have any of them show up in pokemon (game I'm submitting from) where if I knew the cells rules at the time, all 3 would be in the game. Literally the difference between placing the pin on the east ladder up, instead of the west ladder up, about 5 feet apart..... was the difference for one of them. The park as a whole would have made a nice place to play on a community day and gather if it had a circle of 7 stops, instead of a line of 4.
Well "cells" have nothing to do with wayfarer. Or submitting waypoints. It's just how ONE of their games determines what waypoints pulled from their Lightship database will manifest as objects on the map.
Other games use 20m distance from other waypoints.
Others use different sized cells or some combination of rules.
And they aren't going to admit anything about cells since its just something the community reverse engineered.
And I say that as someone who only plays PoGo and only submits things based on if they will show as a stop or gym. However I have submitted a few things that are Ingress or maybe Pikmin only. Because they were too good to not submit.
It's just another case of needing to change the wording in PoGo (and the other games) to "Submit new waypoint" "for lightship database that may show up in your favorite Niantic game!" instead of "submit pokestop" because thats not what you are doing.
Niantic definitely needs to be clearer with players up-front that they are submitting things for a central database not for a specific game. The language they use right now is precisely the opposite of that.
The problem with documenting density rules for a specific game is that doing so commits them to those rules in a way that the current shrouded-in-pseudo-mystery system doesn't.
This is a wayfarer issue. The submitter of that wayspot is probably getting wound up and frustrated.
From their perspective it is a poor performance by wayfarer reviewers. As it is so blatantly a real acceptable object they can easily start to think that there is something malicious going on - there is no reason not to especially if it takes several attempts.
The impact is that the person submitting may keep sending in, they may just say how much wayfarer works against PoGo players. More submissions doomed for “failure” block / swamp the queue
And this person may walk away from wayfarer.
in other words the user experience is very poor, and nobody seems to want to improve that.
Anyone who wants to know that already does. Anyone who wants to abuse the system with this knowledge already does.
They need to make it clear as Hosette says, that you’re submitting to Lightship not to Pokémon GO/Ingress, and that you may not see all the things in those games.
They really need to note that you may see it in future titles and you can see more on these future titles and pre-register at <link>.
They could even push it further saying you can work to develop your own Niantic game and link to the Lightship Dev stuff.
My upgrade percentage is crawling along at snails pace. I'm struggling to find people still reviewing/submitting. The people I know who did have mostly stopped.
Ultimately that effects anyone who enjoys Wayfarer more than it will Niantic. They've shown that they are willing to pay people to do things for them when the community refuses to do it for free.
Personally I'll keep moaning and berating them about their sh#t choices of which there are many :)
I support your position. As a park things nominator you have such flexibility to where to pin the location. It's not a point of interest it's a polygon of interest that could be in multiple cells. .... or for the other game .... not within 20ms
also would like to ask niantic to give players a land use brush and if the park is the only park in a sea of PRP land use ... could that location get more than just one poi per cell? .... I only played pogo to get more subs .... but keen for increased density for suburbs. Get the people out walking!
This isn't about who "wants" to know, it's about people *needing* know before deciding to nominate something.
And knowledge of cells isn't "abuse" of the system. Cells ARE the system. Cells are how the game (Pokemon) functions on many levels.
When Niantic opened up nominations to Pokemon players (a big mistake imho) this is a large part of what they unleashed on wayfarer, and they haven't done anything to remedy it. The easiest compromise (even if you didn't want to "abuse" the system by talking about cells) would be to show the user ALL wayspots on screen prior to clicking submit. That way people shouldn't be resubmitting POIs that already exist over and over again.
I’m aware cells aren’t abuse themselves but there’s certainly a sect of Pokémon GO players who use them for nothing but abuse
”Pleazs move this play park to the house opposite it to reveal a hidden Wayspot!”
I don’t think opening it to Pokémon GO players was the error. Opening it to Pokémon GO players without providing proper guidance and initial restrictions was the error. Niantic thought that the players would use the system the same as the Ingress/OPR folks and people just don’t.
In Pokémon GO, when submitting you do see all the Wayspots. On the map, you will see the little orange Wayfarer pins for things that don’t appear in that game, which includes Lightship-only Wayspots too.
Still waiting for that feature to come to Ingress when nominating though.
My point is the reason you are submitting in that game is to improve that games board. So that games rules should be overlayed. With non-abusive bigger items the submitters time and effort should be respected.
Taking the submission and giving them nothing, doesn't respect the submitters time and effort.
@The26thDoctor-PGO Far fewer Ingress players abuse the system because Ingress players are a small percentage of the submission and review population.
Not providing solid guidance and education to submitters and reviewers from all games has been a major mistake on Niantic's part, and frankly I'm flabbergasted that they haven't addressed it in a meaningful way. There's so much low-hanging fruit available for making the system work better, and there are so many trivial ways to reduce player frustration.
I think that a lot of PoGo-only players forget that Pokemon Go couldn't exist if Ingress players hadn't spent years creating the portals that later became pokestops. When Ingress launched the board was pretty barren, mostly imports of historical markers, post offices, and fire stations. I missed the earliest days of that but the playfield filled out a lot between the time I started playing in 2013 and the time that submissions opened up to PoGo players. PoGo players use wayspots that I submitted for Ingress every single day, so I have limited sympathy if every now and then they give Ingress players a gift. (Note, I play both games and played HPWU and Pikmin before I got bored with them.)
I agree that Niantic have done little to help the Wayfarer community. I don't mean anyone who posts on here with Niantic in their name though.
I can currently see 38 stops around me with 28 of those being submitted by Go players. Admittedly there are a couple of others that don't show in Go, I submitted them knowing they wouldn't.
I think it's more advantageous for Ingress and Go players to direct their frustrations at Niantic rather than each other.
@The26thDoctor-PGO I am all about vocally (but constructively, 99% of the time) directing my frustrations toward Niantic.
I can easily see at least 150 stops/gyms from where I'm sitting right now, maybe as many as 200. I'm quite certain I could count the ones submitted by PoGo players on my fingers, but my area has a long history-- some of the portals I can see in my scanner were the site of the first Resistance L8 build in the whole world. Both factions worked very hard early on to build out my city, and really the whole metropolitan area. Different geographies will have very different histories.
I have no hostility toward PoGo players in general. I do get frustrated by the causal cheating in the game, the mob mentality that it occasionally inspires, and by players who think their game is the only one that matters and act selfishly about it.
I don’t see any value in starting down the rabbit hole about abuse.
Abuse of any system happens because there are some people who just act that way - this is not a game specific issue.
what this should be about is the user experience and their impressions of wayfarer.
There is a lack of empathy for the submitter who is only trying to submit something they hope to be able to interact with. This is not unreasonable.
Wayfarer should want active participants.
Niantic needs people to be able to play their games - no people = no money.
The vast majority of players just play games on their own or with one or two friends - they are blissfully unaware of the need to tap into a knowledge collective. They quite reasonably but naively believe any vital information will be there in the game.
I cannot concur with the comments here that are made about the "Lightship Database".
Yes, Niantic stated repeately (Windmill-Wise) (copy-paste) that we are contributing and reviewing for their Lightship Database.
96,5% of the contributors and reviewers are NOT doing this for Ingress, have NOT done this for [insert random game title that didnt work for Niantic] and will surely NOT do this for the gameboard of that other Niantic Game that is out there, the one with the mushrooms.
The overwhelming majority of contributors is looking for a playable board on Pokemon Go - and nothing else.
Sorry, I gotta cry foul on your comment. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I suspect it's not meant to be insulting to PMG community, but nonetheless it is.
You could just as easily say either of these statements "Far fewer Ingress players DON'T abuse the system because Ingress players are a small percentage of the submissions and review population" or "Far fewer Ingress players properly use the system because Ingress players are a small percentage of the submissions and review population"
A more neutral sentance might read "While we don't know what percentage of each game's players abuse the system, since PMG users far outnumbers Ingress users most of submissions both good and abusive come from that game"
I’m one of those folks. I used to submit and review, now, I submit sporadically, but haven’t reviewed in several months due to Niantic changing the rules randomly and/or having bugs that have kept my own submissions out of the game I play. And just a general lack of communication by any of the teams. The value of an upgrade is diminished when the chances of your submissions making it into the game you play is low or potentially gone because of a bug or some rule changing randomly. No thanks.
Well that is not the case in my area. A lot of my local ingress community work in government and private corporations where data quality is really important. Ingress was initially marketed to IT professionals. And that does linger quite a bit in the community.
Must admit it rancors a bit when pogo-ers say we abuse the system for our own purposes. This has been said since prior to wayfarer being open to pogo players. Ingress players are lazy and selfish and manipulative. Yawn. Of course we mainly submit pois where we actually live work and play.
It is awesome that pogo people can contribute as well. I'm not some old man ingress player railing at those pogo upstarts.
Yet just to the west of me there's been some outlandish fakery to fit cells.
I use my knowledge of cells to 1) make sure I prioritise pois that will appear in both games,
2) method for poi discovery I know all my local s14 cells their land use and their poi count. if you just need that one more poi for 2nd or for a 6th it's a driver to reexamine the ground to see if an additional poi is hiding ... I have discovered more poi looking for pogo than for spine portals for layers in ingress.
Just the poi has to be eligible and actually there.
Some do, some don't. Some Go players manipulate cells, some don't.
Some Go players unknowingly say they want Moar Pokest0pz. Some Ingress players love to reiterate how back in their day this place was barren and if it wasn't for us etc etc
We just need to lose the low quality wayspots, including the past, and keep the high quality wayspots.
I love players of any game who submit high quality wayspots with qualified titles and descriptions with correct location information.
I hate the opposite.
That's just it.
Also, speaking on the issue of the "urban-rural divide" that is often mentioned in Pokémon GO, I personally think the system should be changed to separate wayspot from item acquisition locations in Pokémon GO, because it would close the gap between urban and rural areas.
Because Pokémon appear from data that has nothing to do with wayspot.
In this regard, I feel that the poor construction of the game system by Niantic's Pokémon GO team and the Pokémon Company has blurred the essence of this game.
It's so weird that a subset of pogo only players are so entitled to complain about people who volunteered their time.
There are heaps of ingress players like myself that chose systematic strategies to new discover new poi. I downloaded lists of all the parks in the 15 suburbs near me and I satellite reviewed potential poi and sited visited 150 parks and photographed everything. A friend added 400+ poi by systematically by walking every street in one under-submitted suburb. An agent friend to the west works with his local pogo community to get more pois in their area. Our local team talks of wanting to do another camp ingress where people go camping and nominate rural areas now that we don't have poultry limits on nominations.
I'm not saying this to say we are better I am trying to point out that most ingress nominators just want to make poi. No agenda aside from love of being out side and playing nia games. It's quite hard to hear the negativity when you have put a lot of time.
I can count on my fingers the local pois nominated by pogo players in my area. I wish more pogo folk would nominate and review. If I consider the local chats .... an ingress chat will have a discussion of wayfarer matters in it's general thread . .... pogo chat doesn't have such a discussion. My pogo community is so excited when a poi enters the game but map stuff can be complex for some in the pogo community so it's regarded as side matter. There are pogo community wayfarer chats for sure but it's not typical for a general pogo chat to have any wayfarer discussion.
Anyway hope I have shared some light about how I see things in my part of the world.
From your enlightened, no pun intended, position what do you think the reasons are that Go players can't understand map stuff and seem so disinterested in Wayfarer?
Maybe the vast majority of poi are just stops so have less meaning to them?
Maybe they feel Ingress wouldn't exist without Go's money so it's a fair trade off?
Maybe the evangelical gatekeeping of the we the chosen few attitude that still persists even now?
Comments
When you submit a stop inside a game, the game board's rules should grey out any area that the submission wouldnt enter the game you are submitting from. Letting people in Ingress know if its too close to an ingress portal by greying out 20'. or in PMG greying out the cell.
This stance is highly debated on this forum. But I will continue to defend it. Because many objects like a building, playcenter, baseball field are BIG where if you knew your games local, you could place a perfectly valid pin and it would show up.
My personal experience was at a local park. I submitted 2 play areas and a baseball field. Only to not have any of them show up in pokemon (game I'm submitting from) where if I knew the cells rules at the time, all 3 would be in the game. Literally the difference between placing the pin on the east ladder up, instead of the west ladder up, about 5 feet apart..... was the difference for one of them. The park as a whole would have made a nice place to play on a community day and gather if it had a circle of 7 stops, instead of a line of 4.
Well "cells" have nothing to do with wayfarer. Or submitting waypoints. It's just how ONE of their games determines what waypoints pulled from their Lightship database will manifest as objects on the map.
Other games use 20m distance from other waypoints.
Others use different sized cells or some combination of rules.
And they aren't going to admit anything about cells since its just something the community reverse engineered.
And I say that as someone who only plays PoGo and only submits things based on if they will show as a stop or gym. However I have submitted a few things that are Ingress or maybe Pikmin only. Because they were too good to not submit.
It's just another case of needing to change the wording in PoGo (and the other games) to "Submit new waypoint" "for lightship database that may show up in your favorite Niantic game!" instead of "submit pokestop" because thats not what you are doing.
Niantic definitely needs to be clearer with players up-front that they are submitting things for a central database not for a specific game. The language they use right now is precisely the opposite of that.
The problem with documenting density rules for a specific game is that doing so commits them to those rules in a way that the current shrouded-in-pseudo-mystery system doesn't.
This is a wayfarer issue. The submitter of that wayspot is probably getting wound up and frustrated.
From their perspective it is a poor performance by wayfarer reviewers. As it is so blatantly a real acceptable object they can easily start to think that there is something malicious going on - there is no reason not to especially if it takes several attempts.
The impact is that the person submitting may keep sending in, they may just say how much wayfarer works against PoGo players. More submissions doomed for “failure” block / swamp the queue
And this person may walk away from wayfarer.
in other words the user experience is very poor, and nobody seems to want to improve that.
Cells? No.
Anyone who wants to know that already does. Anyone who wants to abuse the system with this knowledge already does.
They need to make it clear as Hosette says, that you’re submitting to Lightship not to Pokémon GO/Ingress, and that you may not see all the things in those games.
They really need to note that you may see it in future titles and you can see more on these future titles and pre-register at <link>.
They could even push it further saying you can work to develop your own Niantic game and link to the Lightship Dev stuff.
My upgrade percentage is crawling along at snails pace. I'm struggling to find people still reviewing/submitting. The people I know who did have mostly stopped.
Ultimately that effects anyone who enjoys Wayfarer more than it will Niantic. They've shown that they are willing to pay people to do things for them when the community refuses to do it for free.
Personally I'll keep moaning and berating them about their sh#t choices of which there are many :)
I support your position. As a park things nominator you have such flexibility to where to pin the location. It's not a point of interest it's a polygon of interest that could be in multiple cells. .... or for the other game .... not within 20ms
also would like to ask niantic to give players a land use brush and if the park is the only park in a sea of PRP land use ... could that location get more than just one poi per cell? .... I only played pogo to get more subs .... but keen for increased density for suburbs. Get the people out walking!
This isn't about who "wants" to know, it's about people *needing* know before deciding to nominate something.
And knowledge of cells isn't "abuse" of the system. Cells ARE the system. Cells are how the game (Pokemon) functions on many levels.
When Niantic opened up nominations to Pokemon players (a big mistake imho) this is a large part of what they unleashed on wayfarer, and they haven't done anything to remedy it. The easiest compromise (even if you didn't want to "abuse" the system by talking about cells) would be to show the user ALL wayspots on screen prior to clicking submit. That way people shouldn't be resubmitting POIs that already exist over and over again.
Meanwhile....massive backlog.
I’m aware cells aren’t abuse themselves but there’s certainly a sect of Pokémon GO players who use them for nothing but abuse
”Pleazs move this play park to the house opposite it to reveal a hidden Wayspot!”
I don’t think opening it to Pokémon GO players was the error. Opening it to Pokémon GO players without providing proper guidance and initial restrictions was the error. Niantic thought that the players would use the system the same as the Ingress/OPR folks and people just don’t.
In Pokémon GO, when submitting you do see all the Wayspots. On the map, you will see the little orange Wayfarer pins for things that don’t appear in that game, which includes Lightship-only Wayspots too.
Still waiting for that feature to come to Ingress when nominating though.
There are. I have just as many Ingress players abuse the system in their own way too though.
+seen
My point is the reason you are submitting in that game is to improve that games board. So that games rules should be overlayed. With non-abusive bigger items the submitters time and effort should be respected.
Taking the submission and giving them nothing, doesn't respect the submitters time and effort.
@The26thDoctor-PGO Far fewer Ingress players abuse the system because Ingress players are a small percentage of the submission and review population.
Not providing solid guidance and education to submitters and reviewers from all games has been a major mistake on Niantic's part, and frankly I'm flabbergasted that they haven't addressed it in a meaningful way. There's so much low-hanging fruit available for making the system work better, and there are so many trivial ways to reduce player frustration.
I think that a lot of PoGo-only players forget that Pokemon Go couldn't exist if Ingress players hadn't spent years creating the portals that later became pokestops. When Ingress launched the board was pretty barren, mostly imports of historical markers, post offices, and fire stations. I missed the earliest days of that but the playfield filled out a lot between the time I started playing in 2013 and the time that submissions opened up to PoGo players. PoGo players use wayspots that I submitted for Ingress every single day, so I have limited sympathy if every now and then they give Ingress players a gift. (Note, I play both games and played HPWU and Pikmin before I got bored with them.)
I’m not, but may be in the minority. I’m submitting to help as many game boards as I can, not just one.
I agree that Niantic have done little to help the Wayfarer community. I don't mean anyone who posts on here with Niantic in their name though.
I can currently see 38 stops around me with 28 of those being submitted by Go players. Admittedly there are a couple of others that don't show in Go, I submitted them knowing they wouldn't.
I think it's more advantageous for Ingress and Go players to direct their frustrations at Niantic rather than each other.
@The26thDoctor-PGO I am all about vocally (but constructively, 99% of the time) directing my frustrations toward Niantic.
I can easily see at least 150 stops/gyms from where I'm sitting right now, maybe as many as 200. I'm quite certain I could count the ones submitted by PoGo players on my fingers, but my area has a long history-- some of the portals I can see in my scanner were the site of the first Resistance L8 build in the whole world. Both factions worked very hard early on to build out my city, and really the whole metropolitan area. Different geographies will have very different histories.
I have no hostility toward PoGo players in general. I do get frustrated by the causal cheating in the game, the mob mentality that it occasionally inspires, and by players who think their game is the only one that matters and act selfishly about it.
I don’t see any value in starting down the rabbit hole about abuse.
Abuse of any system happens because there are some people who just act that way - this is not a game specific issue.
what this should be about is the user experience and their impressions of wayfarer.
There is a lack of empathy for the submitter who is only trying to submit something they hope to be able to interact with. This is not unreasonable.
Wayfarer should want active participants.
Niantic needs people to be able to play their games - no people = no money.
The vast majority of players just play games on their own or with one or two friends - they are blissfully unaware of the need to tap into a knowledge collective. They quite reasonably but naively believe any vital information will be there in the game.
I cannot concur with the comments here that are made about the "Lightship Database".
Yes, Niantic stated repeately (Windmill-Wise) (copy-paste) that we are contributing and reviewing for their Lightship Database.
96,5% of the contributors and reviewers are NOT doing this for Ingress, have NOT done this for [insert random game title that didnt work for Niantic] and will surely NOT do this for the gameboard of that other Niantic Game that is out there, the one with the mushrooms.
The overwhelming majority of contributors is looking for a playable board on Pokemon Go - and nothing else.
Sorry, I gotta cry foul on your comment. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I suspect it's not meant to be insulting to PMG community, but nonetheless it is.
You could just as easily say either of these statements "Far fewer Ingress players DON'T abuse the system because Ingress players are a small percentage of the submissions and review population" or "Far fewer Ingress players properly use the system because Ingress players are a small percentage of the submissions and review population"
A more neutral sentance might read "While we don't know what percentage of each game's players abuse the system, since PMG users far outnumbers Ingress users most of submissions both good and abusive come from that game"
I’m one of those folks. I used to submit and review, now, I submit sporadically, but haven’t reviewed in several months due to Niantic changing the rules randomly and/or having bugs that have kept my own submissions out of the game I play. And just a general lack of communication by any of the teams. The value of an upgrade is diminished when the chances of your submissions making it into the game you play is low or potentially gone because of a bug or some rule changing randomly. No thanks.
Well that is not the case in my area. A lot of my local ingress community work in government and private corporations where data quality is really important. Ingress was initially marketed to IT professionals. And that does linger quite a bit in the community.
Must admit it rancors a bit when pogo-ers say we abuse the system for our own purposes. This has been said since prior to wayfarer being open to pogo players. Ingress players are lazy and selfish and manipulative. Yawn. Of course we mainly submit pois where we actually live work and play.
It is awesome that pogo people can contribute as well. I'm not some old man ingress player railing at those pogo upstarts.
Yet just to the west of me there's been some outlandish fakery to fit cells.
I use my knowledge of cells to 1) make sure I prioritise pois that will appear in both games,
2) method for poi discovery I know all my local s14 cells their land use and their poi count. if you just need that one more poi for 2nd or for a 6th it's a driver to reexamine the ground to see if an additional poi is hiding ... I have discovered more poi looking for pogo than for spine portals for layers in ingress.
Just the poi has to be eligible and actually there.
Some do, some don't. Some Go players manipulate cells, some don't.
Some Go players unknowingly say they want Moar Pokest0pz. Some Ingress players love to reiterate how back in their day this place was barren and if it wasn't for us etc etc
We just need to lose the low quality wayspots, including the past, and keep the high quality wayspots.
I love players of any game who submit high quality wayspots with qualified titles and descriptions with correct location information.
I hate the opposite.
That's just it.
Also, speaking on the issue of the "urban-rural divide" that is often mentioned in Pokémon GO, I personally think the system should be changed to separate wayspot from item acquisition locations in Pokémon GO, because it would close the gap between urban and rural areas.
Because Pokémon appear from data that has nothing to do with wayspot.
In this regard, I feel that the poor construction of the game system by Niantic's Pokémon GO team and the Pokémon Company has blurred the essence of this game.
@tp235-ING A lot of item acquisition in PoGo often comes from quests and gifts.
Most of mine come from stops. Opening gifts is a laborious process so I rarely open them.
Gifts still require stops to access. A community of rural players would still struggle to get enough items just from sending each other gifts.
Getting a little off track now, but I’m sure the Buddy thing where it picks you up a few gifts each day is still active, so you can still get some.
I would also hope your friends that are in other places know if you’re in a low density area and send you gifts more often.
I mark those friends with a “1 <nickname>” so I make sure to do that.
But we are the ones that populated the map.
It's so weird that a subset of pogo only players are so entitled to complain about people who volunteered their time.
There are heaps of ingress players like myself that chose systematic strategies to new discover new poi. I downloaded lists of all the parks in the 15 suburbs near me and I satellite reviewed potential poi and sited visited 150 parks and photographed everything. A friend added 400+ poi by systematically by walking every street in one under-submitted suburb. An agent friend to the west works with his local pogo community to get more pois in their area. Our local team talks of wanting to do another camp ingress where people go camping and nominate rural areas now that we don't have poultry limits on nominations.
I'm not saying this to say we are better I am trying to point out that most ingress nominators just want to make poi. No agenda aside from love of being out side and playing nia games. It's quite hard to hear the negativity when you have put a lot of time.
I can count on my fingers the local pois nominated by pogo players in my area. I wish more pogo folk would nominate and review. If I consider the local chats .... an ingress chat will have a discussion of wayfarer matters in it's general thread . .... pogo chat doesn't have such a discussion. My pogo community is so excited when a poi enters the game but map stuff can be complex for some in the pogo community so it's regarded as side matter. There are pogo community wayfarer chats for sure but it's not typical for a general pogo chat to have any wayfarer discussion.
Anyway hope I have shared some light about how I see things in my part of the world.
From your enlightened, no pun intended, position what do you think the reasons are that Go players can't understand map stuff and seem so disinterested in Wayfarer?
Maybe the vast majority of poi are just stops so have less meaning to them?
Maybe they feel Ingress wouldn't exist without Go's money so it's a fair trade off?
Maybe the evangelical gatekeeping of the we the chosen few attitude that still persists even now?