Inner West Sydney Decimated by Removals Overnight

Sooo…what is going on?

The Inner West suburbs of Newtown and Stanmore in Sydney, Australia have been absolutely decimated by a loss of Wayspots overnight. From my location, I can count around 50-60 that have simply vanished. These are PoIs that have been present in Pokémon Go since the very beginning, and were also present in Ingress & Wizards Unite.

Many are huge public murals that have been funded under a Council Public Art program called ‘Perfect Match’. Council pays for them. Owners of property consent to their use, there are plaques on the building and there are trails published every year so people can walk around and see them. They are a part of inner west culture (and before anyone shrieks ‘PRP!’) - many, if not most of them, are on property that is actually industrial/business terraces or back fences, a fact which is known to the community of Wayfarers who are actually on the ground in this area.

Is this a bulk auto-removal of Wayspots programmed by Niantic, similar to what befell USA inner cities earlier in the year, creating the ‘Space Needle Incident.’? Or could this be the work or a rogue or malicious single remover trying to gain a strategic advantage in a particular game?

If anyone has answers, I’d appreciate it. My Wayfarer community has put HUNDREDS of hours into volunteer efforts to make our local game board better for everyone, and all that careful and loving work has been largely undone in one fell swoop.

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Comments

  • Tntnnbltn-INGTntnnbltn-ING Posts: 809 Ambassador

    I’m having a look at the Perfect Match details I found online.


    The application form says:

    “Through  Perfect  Match  Public  Art  Program, funding is available for Through  Perfect  Match  Public  Art  Program, funding is available for residents, community organisations or business owners to have  a  street  artwork  painted  on  a  wall that has been subject to recurrent unwanted graffiti or tagging.”

    “To apply to have a Perfect Match mural painted on your wall:

    ·       The proposed site must be located within the Inner West Council Local Government Area;

    ·       you must be the owner of the property wall or have written approval of the property owner;

    ·       the wall must be publicly viewable (eg. street facing), preferably at a profile location experienced by local community, passers-by and visitors to the area;

    ·       The wall must be in good condition - no cracks, rust, peeling paint. Or, alternatively you must be willing to have the wall fixed if selected. 

    ·       the wall must be a safe distance from electricity wires.

    ·       you must be willing to work collaboratively with the artist and Council to develop the artwork concept, methodology and installation schedule;

    ·       you must be willing to liaise with your neighbours, seek their input and notify them of plans to install the artwork.”


    Based on the wording here, and my understanding of how Niantic treats private residential property removals, my view would be:

    * Murals which are on the external property walls (or fences) of single-family private residential properties would be ineligible.

    * Murals which are on the external property walls (or fences) of community organisations or businesses would be eligible, unless there was some other disqualifying criteria (e.g. pedestrian access).


    It would seem like therefore the eligibility would be on a case by case basis. If there are ones that were removed and were from community organisations or businesses, I would recommend appealing on the forum, and include evidence that it’s not private residential property (examples of evidence might include Googling listing for the business, Streetview screenshot showing the business name, if the council has maps online which show residential/commercial zoning then that could be used too).

  • Thank you. I’m well familiar with the Perfect Match program requirements, as are most of the Wayfarers in my location. Many hours have been put into making sure these are eligible. The Inner West has particular housing and business characteristics and no-one can make assumptions from looking at a Google Earth or Streetview,

    What I wouldn’t expect anyone to do, is submit a swathe of bulk removal requests first, assuming from a distance they all may be ineligible, and then expect the community to shoulder the weight of having to jump through hoops to get them back, That is unjust vigilante action, and could rightly become the subject of a formal complaint to Niantic if the person or group is identified.

  • holdthebeer-INGholdthebeer-ING Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2022

    If I remember correctly, earlier this year, USA cities did not lose wayspots, they lost pokestops when niantic moved pois around and spacing rules were applied. So it's not similar, if you checked and wayspots were actually deleted.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    Is it just Pokémon Go they have gone from?

    I can see there are still a lot in the Lightship database and ingress.

  • There are still some, but about half what was there prior. Gone from all databases.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    Since they have gone from lightship you could ask @NianticLC @NianticTintino-ING what has happened.

    I hesitate to suggest in app support but give it a try.

  • Duiomar-PGODuiomar-PGO Posts: 458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    rules can only be bent if it directly makes niantic money, like if they were about to lose a contract because they couldn't procure enough basketball court stops.

  • tehstone-INGtehstone-ING Posts: 1,154 Ambassador

    Many hours have been put into making sure these are eligible

    Sounds like a few more hours will be needed since they are not eligible.

    If it's literally on a private residence it isn't eligible no matter how you try and spin it.

    And as someone else mentioned, this has absolutely nothing to do with the location corrections earlier this year that caused some pokestops and gyms to desync.

  • With the greatest of respect, I don’t need schooling from anyone in what’s eligible. As I’ve pointed out, this isn’t limited to Council Mural programs and those aren’t limited to private residential property. It seems like some people (ie Ingress players with no removal distance limits) are presuming ‘ineligible’ first, telling NIA things are on PRP when they can’t be sure of it, and then forcing the local community to ask questions later. These aren’t ‘good faith’ removals - its vigilante action.

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,560 Ambassador

    Ingress agents can only submit removal requests at a distance from any wayspot for which they hold a key. I believe Wayfarer App users can also submit removal requests from a distance, can they not? Any Ingress agent holding a key would probably already have been to that area to hack the key, or had it dropped off to them by a friend. Oh, and there are also many Pokemon Go location spoofers who may be doing nefarious removals. It's not necessarily Ingress agents at fault here.

  • PkmnTrainerJ-INGPkmnTrainerJ-ING Posts: 5,125 Ambassador

    Not forgetting that any Wayfarer user could report anything via the Help Chat on the site.

  • HaramDingo-INGHaramDingo-ING Posts: 1,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not necessarily. This has now been circumvented using dynamic links which can be generated from IITC.

    I don't think any of my reports via the Wayfarer app have ever been touched. That or they've all been rejected despite absolute clearcut dupes.

  • tehstone-INGtehstone-ING Posts: 1,154 Ambassador

    Having reported a large number of wayspots that were ineligible (none in Australia) I can promise that it is not trivial to convince Niantic of anything. If the reported wayspots are being removed in large quantity then it's likely that few of these removals are mistakes. You've still not provided examples of any that are not on PRP despite claiming that some fall under that category.

    I'm sorry you feel that someone is targeting your area but that's not what's going on here.

  • Shilfiell-INGShilfiell-ING Posts: 1,560 Ambassador

    Ahh, yes - I know there are "photo likes" groups that use dynamic links to get thumbs on their photos, but I don't participate and have barely used dynamic links at all myself. But yes, they do work like that.


    Why would someone spoofing Go have something removed?

    Thankfully, I'm not privy to the inner working of the spoofer mind - but probably for the same reason they spoof in the first place: because they can. Maybe they've had account suspensions/bans and want revenge. Maybe they want to exert control. Maybe they got one of their horrible spoofed submissions approved and the murals are blocking it in Go. Everything I've seen from our area spoofers, of which there are too many, points to the fact that they're not terribly logical or kind people.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    Looking at this as someone far removed and unaware of what local Niantic game “politics” are there appears to be reasonable question that has been asked and it deserves an answer from Niantic.

    For them to be removed for all games and the Lightship database in one go looks like a single large report. From other instances covered in this forum we are told the wayfinders involved have been informed in some way. I would expect that to be the case here. If not, why not.

    It may be that there was an issue with all the wayspots, some or none.

    It may be that someone was quite correct in compiling a report or it could be a malicious act.

    @LadyofSwanLake-PGO deserves an answer.

    I would like to see an official answer so that I could have trust in the system.

  • 26thDoctor-PGO26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've found the opposite to be true. The spoofers I know are quiet people who keep to themselves and generally not the evil spawns of the devil that Go players love to work themselves into a frenzy over.

  • Sorry, but you can’t say for certain that’s ‘not what’s going on here’. And you haven’t asked me to provide photos here previously, I’m also away from my usual location, so it’s not like I can drop everything to satisfy your demand for ‘proof’. I’m happy to name a number of them, but this is a large area a suburb wide (at least) and will require substantial boots on the ground to collect it all. The Wayspots are gone from all games + Lightship so collecting photos is now a manual task.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 3,534 Ambassador
    edited December 2022

    Sorry, but you can’t say for certain that’s ‘not what’s going on here’. 

    Technically you're right, he can't say for certain because he doesn't work for Niantic. But in the several hundred in Seattle that he tracked that were affected, none of the Wayspots were removed - just Stops & Gyms de-synced because of no longer meeting PoGO inclusion limits after the move. Additionally, he even reported instances where the POI had been physically removed (art or sculpture no longer there) where the pin was adjusted rather than removed. So that's why we're both pretty certain that's "not what's going on here."

    And you haven’t asked me to provide photos here previously, I’m also away from my usual location, so it’s not like I can drop everything to satisfy your demand for ‘proof’.

    Certainly none of us is demanding anything. You came here and asked for help so we're trying to help by working through possible reasons with some of the most logical possibilities. Since you aren't there, if you want to pursue, you could share Google maps links, GPS locations, or if any of them were your nominations you could use the photos you used for the original submission.

    I’m happy to name a number of them, but this is a large area a suburb wide (at least) and will require substantial boots on the ground to collect it all.

    If you gave just a few examples it would be a start.

    The Wayspots are gone from all games + Lightship so collecting photos is now a manual task.

    Many appeals have successfully been handled by simply providing the location with Google maps images and the business listings as mentioned above.


    The two currently active Niantic mods were tagged and maybe they can provide some more support, but I suspect they'll start by asking for the same things we did above - names of Wayspots and proof of the locations not being ineligible.

    Cheers, and hopefully you'll get it sorted out.

    Post edited by Gendgi-PGO on
  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,608 Ambassador

    One thing I'd like to add to this conversation is that the ease or difficulty of removing a POI seems to depend on which person on the Help staff that you reach with your request. We had a couple of stops (accurately) be removed in our local area. A couple of players were concerned over the loss of those stops. So a third person was curious about the process for removal. He picked a gym that couldn't generate raids (and for which the actual POI had been gone for a long time) and asked Niantic to remove it. He didn't have to tell them he was the property owner (he isn't). They just took his report and removed it. Again, it was a legit removal so our community wasn't upset over it. But the logic that "it's hard to get things removed" doesn't always apply.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    @Tntnnbltn-ING Thank you for this detailed and helpful post.

    It is very difficult to put your head above the parapet and although on the other side of the world I would like to offer my virtual support, and sincere hope that this does not result in any childish, and malicious behaviour towards you personally.

    I dipped into the list for 3 or 4 random examples to look at them. The ones I saw did indeed seem to fall into this category of murals on an external facing wall of a single private residential property. I was culturally confused initially as the use of bars on windows usual indicates in the U.K. it is a business but looking around this was a common feature of the houses.

    So these shouldn’t have been approved.

    The murals themselves looked amazing and I love projects like this bringing art and creativity into the community. It’s is for a separate discussion perhaps but I always feel sad that this sort of thing can’t be in the database. And currently there is a clear line in the sand.

    It sounds as this goes a long way to potentially offering an explanation. Is it the full picture 🤷‍♀️ is still a question. Perhaps @LadyofSwanLake-PGO can confirm?

    I do think that when posts like this are made (which is not often) Niantic should respond even if it’s to quickly acknowledge and provide an informed answer within a few days ( not, soon™️)

    Thanks again.

  • 26thDoctor-PGO26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2022

    Self empowerment and ego trpping at the gates of Wayfarer while Niantic continue to **** you all hard.

    Peace out.

    Post edited by NianticLC on
  • These are a small proportion of the items that have been removed - most are out of my locational view. But Cockatoo Mural was never at the address you’ve given here. I’ll review the others.

    I’ll put this out to the local Wayfarer community to identify the balance over the course of coming weeks - because there are many, many more. For those who think it is a small thing, the game board is almost unrecognisable. I will also add that not all of us may be as savvy at pulling together GPS coordinates from a distance than others, but that doesn’t reflect either a lack of knowledge about criteria nor a lack of commitment to Wayfarer.

    Wen the industrials can be evidenced, which to my mind and the guidance would suggest, includes any business being run from a location which may have ever turned up on a real estate website as PRP, we’ll welcome the support to get these removals overturned. As someone above said, the delineation between ‘single family home’ and business is not always clear in the inner west because of mixed-use zoning in inner city areas. Again - this is why local community knowledge is important.

    Further, there are several questions Niantic could assist in answering - no-one who submitted any of these in the first instance ever received an email about their removal. Why not? If they weren’t eligible to begin with, shouldn’t the ones submitted be given the clear option to appeal and/or learn?

    Secondly, noting again this is a subset of the total Wayspots we are talking about here, where a level of government has funded public art to be placed on exterior walls with consent from the owner to have a plaque and their residence details included in a published trail map given out at Visitor Information Centres - could we have clearer guidance please? @NianticTintino-ING

    @NianticAaron

  • And look, one more thing to add, and it’s relevant to anyone, really. We all know there are other places people talk about Wayfarer. If people don’t wish to to bring undue scrutiny on themselves about actions they’ve authored which have a significant impact on other people’s gameplay experience, far away from where you are, perhaps it’s best to be a little circumspect about the language used to detail these ‘exploits’ to others.

  • Tntnnbltn-INGTntnnbltn-ING Posts: 809 Ambassador
    edited December 2022

    In terms of identifying businesses in a mixed residential/business area, the following website may be of assistance: https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/spatialviewer/#/find-a-property/address

    The zoning map appears to show business zoning (B1) on an individual property level.


    Further, there are several questions Niantic could assist in answering - no-one who submitted any of these in the first instance ever received an email about their removal. Why not? If they weren’t eligible to begin with, shouldn’t the ones submitted be given the clear option to appeal and/or learn?

    As far as I know, Niantic never routinely send out emails notifying about removals. I can see the merits of such a system, but only if implemented correctly. I believe that the original submitters would have submitted these murals in good faith, and perhaps in a time where Niantic would have welcomed such submissions. I feel seen the template for their 'warning' email which they send out with is incredibly unhelpful and some people have not had a good mental experience when receiving it. If they were to implement such a system, I would sincerely hope that it is not like the current warning system.


    Secondly, noting again this is a subset of the total Wayspots we are talking about here, where a level of government has funded public art to be placed on exterior walls with consent from the owner to have a plaque and their residence details included in a published trail map given out at Visitor Information Centres - could we have clearer guidance please? @NianticTintino-ING

    More guidance could never go astray. I think that the murals themselves are beautiful. I think it is disappointing that we have a situation where state survey markers which have no individual notability or merit are approved and cannot be removed, but murals like this don't meet the criteria. I would much rather visit and photograph one of these murals than a survey marker, unfortunately that is not (to my understanding) how the removal criteria works.


    And look, one more thing to add, and it’s relevant to anyone, really. We all know there are other places people talk about Wayfarer. If people don’t wish to to bring undue scrutiny on themselves about actions they’ve authored which have a significant impact on other people’s gameplay experience, far away from where you are, perhaps it’s best to be a little circumspect about the language used to detail these ‘exploits’ to others.

    I suspect I may know what this is in relation to, although if so I was not aware that DMs I had sent to someone on the expectation of privacy had been shared outside of that environment. That is disappointing to find out if so. If this is in relation to the conversation I am thinking of, I was partially venting because a number of the Wayspots which had been removed by Niantic had been resubmitted a second, third or even I think fourth time. These were not being overturned by appeal, but rather being submitted fresh, sometimes with different titles, and approved again by the community. You mentioned that the Wayspots listed above were not in your immediate area, so you may not have even been aware of this context.

    I do not hold any disregard for users who submitted these mural Wayspots in good faith assuming their eligibility -- but when Wayspots have been removed by Niantic and other players resubmit on a weekly basis to bypass Niantic's decisions and to get the Wayspots into the game when not eligible, I get frustrated and probably tend to fall into a competitive mindset. That's a negative trait, and I should (and will) strive to be better.

    We are both on a shared Discord server if you would like to discuss this further.

  • That planning website is excellent, and demonstrates exactly the kind of local granularity and knowledge that is necessary to make proper determinations about whether something is eligible or not. I'd further add that there are many home-based businesses that have emerged over the last couple of years in the Inner West due to COVID - and appear to be fully operating as businesses with signage, and this has not been updated in planning, but mixed use is permitted - they won't be reflected on this planning site.

    As for Niantic's removal criteria - it operates on a lot of good faith by submitters, as any over-stretched system does. In my view, that's why it's so important for people to be very, very sure that they are acting in good faith, and in line with Niantic's overall aims, before they undertake activity which significantly, detrimentally impacts other people's experience. This is qualitatively not the same situation as those egregious clusters in Korea and other spots that we know come from overt manipulation of the gameboard. I think we're all in agreement that those are well and truly malicious manipulation. But this is not the situation here - in many cases what have come out are beautiful artworks dispersed through a number of suburbs that have been in Niantic games for 7 years plus. And many of them are the liniest of line-ball calls on potential removal.

    Your self-reflection and the context is helpful, and I would happily take a conversation offline if it could be productive. I would also suggest that anyone letting their competitive side get the better of them with a local community to see who could win a 'removals war' in the very specific above circumstances is probably not in keeping with Niantic's aims, nor any Code of Conduct Ambassadors should probably abide by, There are far more productive ways to spend one's time that enhance the gameboard and everyone's experience.

  • Elijustrying-INGElijustrying-ING Posts: 5,483 Ambassador

    I am glad to hear there is progress here.

    You do raise another grey area around mix use property.

    The most familiar scenario is where the ground floor is a business and the space above is a flat/apartment or flats. This is deemed perfectly acceptable. There is a clear vertical division of the one building.

    Farms and farm shops have been discussed and some have large permanent shops, sometimes a cafe and small play area. Not always clear where it goes from an individual farm to a destination to visit.

    The situation you describe over Covid is one I have seen around my area. None of the ones I have seen come close in terms of the actual business being considered as a way spot. One example is a small terraced property which does not look like the front room has been converted into a separate business. It has a very nice permanent sign. A second was a new build detached house which had building work to create an annex with a separate entrance plus signage, but the area in front is one property.

    What if they had some distinctive and unique artwork?

    I realise that other countries will have different planning rules etc.

    I’m happy to use my judgement on cases like this but would expect highly variable results in the review process.

    Some general clarification about principles would be welcome.

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