Is the margin between sidewalk and street private property?

There’s a cool/sculptural bench made out of a tractor seat in my neighborhood. Thinking of recommending it as a waystop, but wanted to clarify first if it would be in a location that meets criteria.


It is permanently installed and on the planting ****/margin between the sidewalk and the street in a single family residential neighborhood in Seattle, USA.


Is the “margin” btwn the sidewalk and street considered PRP? Please advise, thank you.

Comments

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By most reviewers and probably Niantic (for purposes of nomination review or ineligibility report), yes, this is likely to be considered PRP.

    That said, Giffard gave a clarification some time ago that a POI that is away from, and does not interfere with, PRP can be eligible. This is been interpreted by some to mean the interval between the sidewalk and the street, but that was not clarified in such solid terms by an official source. So, you can nominate, but it’s probably at best a coin flip on the PRP issue.

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Private residential property ends at the property line. If there is a wall or fence indicating the property line, the wall or fence and everything attached to it is considered private residential property. If there is no clear boundery, common sense should be used. Is the object likely installed by the home owner, it is private residential property. If it is installed by the government it is likely not on private residential property. Sidewalks are rarely on private residential property, so anything between the sidewalk and the street is unlikely to be on private residential property.

  • Wonderpants9-PGOWonderpants9-PGO Posts: 3 ✭✭

    Here’s a screenshot from google streetview of the seat/bench.

    (Also, wow, funny that the commonly used term for the planting area in a sidewalk margin got auto-censored above!)

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hard to see in that picture, but there appears to be a fence between the property and the sidewalk. So I would not consider that location to be private residential property.

    That said, I don't really see how this meets eligibility criteria. You're gonna have a hard time convincing people it is eligible.

  • X0bai-PGOX0bai-PGO Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭✭✭

    …that is not a “sculptural bench.”

  • Wonderpants9-PGOWonderpants9-PGO Posts: 3 ✭✭

    Thanks everyone for your insight. Maybe it isn’t sculptural enough! I think it kinda looks cooler now as it is situated with interesting plantings and other art objects around it, although I wouldn’t call the other art pieces “permanent.”

    I probably won’t submit it if the feedback is that it isn’t worthy.

    I appreciate the info on the sidewalk-interval regardless. Thanks again.

  • trainermanoo-PGOtrainermanoo-PGO Posts: 4 ✭✭

    Hey everyone

    my nomination got rejected for PRP. I don‘t want to appeal it and risk being banned according to the email niantic sends for rejected appeals so I‘m curious if you could help me understand PRP better. My nomination is a public bookshelf for book exchange. It is perfectly visible and accessible from the sidewalk and in front of the bushes of the private property behind it. So in my understanding it‘s public and acceptable since the whole point of it is to access it. See pics below and thanks for your input.


  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2023

    In the US, the private residential property of single family homes typically extends to the street, and includes the sidewalks and the area between the sidewalk and street. In most cities, there is a 10 or so foot public easement from the street where a sidewalk can be placed, but the property remains private, hence all the rejections when objects are placed there. Sidewalks are for public use, but they traverse private property.

    Post edited by Leedle95-PGO on
  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No, that is incorrect. The property in the US usually doesn't even reach the sidewalk. Don't just believe anything people tell you and do some actual research on the subject. Look at property maps. You'll notice that the property lines usually are nowhere near the street.

    https://cardinalsurveying.com/does-my-property-end-at-the-sidewalk-or-the-curb/#:~:text=Within%20that%2012.5%20feet%20you,be%20the%20front%20property%20line.

    If your street is public, where your property ownership is going to depend on what the right of way width is. In most residential neighborhoods, the right of way is designed to be 50 feet in width. Of the 50 feet, the road width that is actually paved is about half of that, or 25 feet.

    That means that there is an additional 25 feet of right of way land that is not paved but that is available for use by the municipality/county. If they build the road in the middle of the right of way area, that leaves an additional 12.5 feet on either side of the road. Within that 12.5 feet you will typically find the curb, sidewalk, and possibly utility lines.

    So – if you want to know where your front property line is located, you would need to go to the middle of the street, measure 25 feet towards your house, and that would be the front property line.

    Please adjust your voting behavior accordingly, and stop spreading misinformation.

  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2023

    Actually, that’s not close to correct. Do research using state and local codes, not private websites. From the Google found site just below the one you quoted:

    “One common question we get asked is where does my property line end, at the sidewalk or the curb? The answer may depend on your municipality, but typically, your property line starts at the curb. However, there may be instances where your property line ends at the sidewalk.”


    sorry, I should have “typically,” but I was correct.

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I assume you are talking about this article:

    https://bettersworthandassociates.com/2022/05/do-property-lines-end-at-the-sidewalk-or-curb/

    That article goes on to contradict itself multiple times later on.

    If your neighborhood was developed before 1950, there’s a good chance that your property line extends to the sidewalk.

    If you’re unsure whether your property line extends to the sidewalk or not

    If your property line extends to the sidewalk, that means it typically doesn't even reach the sidewalk. I wouldn't trust an article that contradicts itself.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 3,534 Ambassador

    No, they didn't.

    If the area between sidewalk and road is part of the property associated with the single family private residence, it remains ineligible.

    As long as it is on the property of private residential property even if accessible from a sidewalk nearby, it should be rejected.

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They why did they show a picture of an object in the grass and say it was eligible?

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 3,534 Ambassador
  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That doesn't change the fact that private residential property rarely extends to the street or includes the sidewalk. And contrary to popular belief, it also doesn't in the US.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 3,534 Ambassador

    "Rarely" hardly works.

    It can vary vastly even within the same neighborhoods. I live within an area where sidewalks are being installed that didn't exist and I still own the land even that the sidewalk is on, but I also have friends in different areas where the property map does not include it.

    And, regardless, it doesn't change anything I've shared.

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have looked at various property maps. I have read many articles about the subject. I have had many discussions about it on this forum. I have asked many times here to share a property map that shows private residential property extending to the street. So far I haven't found a single property where that is the case. I'm sure it exists somewhere, but for now I'm going to continue viewing people claiming that those are not rare exceptions as abusive liers.

    True, but the fact that you only respond to @29andCounting-PGO and not to @Leedle95-PGO might give some people the idea that you support what they (Leedle95) say.

  • 29andCounting-PGO29andCounting-PGO Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The thing that makes no sense to me, it that the public is allowed on the sidewalk. The homeowner can’t come out and say “get off the sidewalk, technically it falls on my property line”. That would be ridiculous. So if a citizen can walk freely on the sidewalk, they can have their phones open and play solitaire while they’re walking, or Pokémon go.

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,607 Ambassador
    edited June 2023

    There is something called an Easement. Sidewalks have an easement where you must allow people to walk along them. That doesn't mean you don't own the property.

    I worked in home building and neighborhood development before I changed over to Healthcare. Codes and laws around property are ridiculously local. I live in a city that has rules about what color I can paint my house! And y'all think there's some uniform property law through the whole country/world?

    Also, big old LOL to the person who thinks someone is going to post their own property on the internet. No one is doxxing themselves in order to prove you can or can't accept that LFL.

  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are you talking about me? I'm not asking anyone to post their own property. I'm asking for a property map of any street or town in the US were the properties extend to the street, preferably not in a gated community. It can be on the other side of the country. If it is so common in the US, that shouldn't be to hard to do.

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,607 Ambassador

    Let me show you why you can't trust what is posted online.

    Here's a map of boundary lines with a satellite overlay. Notice how the property line intersects the actual house? How can I trust anything from this site? This is from the official county tax assessor's office. To see property lines, you need to look at Deeds or get an official survey done.

    You're asking for a level of precision from technology that isn't designed to be that precise.

  • rufoushumming-PGOrufoushumming-PGO Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2023

    Everyone is right. Everyone is wrong. Depending on what you read, where you are and what you want to believe.

    At the end of the day. Most private properties are clearly delineated by a fence/wall etc. Most. Particularly in towns and the like. Unless you have zero common sense you can tell that. It is not open for debate.

    Where I am at the moment. the land either side of a footpath is more often than not public land. Even the drive ways from the road to the house are on public land. You sit in your car, on that driveway outside your boundary line, drunk with engine on. Drink driving offence. Dump rubbish on that driveway between your boundary line and road. Littering offence.

    I totally agree with Seaprincess. Local law is local law and it differs. Not just at a national or state level. Every LGA (local government authority) can have a spin.

    But from the UK to Australia. You see a fence/wall. Stop right there. See grass either side of a walkway. Public land. If the property owner chooses not to have a boundary line. And some people don't. Then you look to the property either side! Common sense works!!

    If you posted that seat nomination in Australia - it will not fail for private property reasons.

    Totally off topic. Interesting what land owners in Australia do is they will extend their fence. Hope the LGA does not see it and then after x number years claim the land as their own. Best done in conjunction with your neighbours. A lot of the old dunny lanes and land between walkways and suddenly your (the public) property has been "stolen" that way.

    Post edited by rufoushumming-PGO on
  • TWVer-INGTWVer-ING Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am not asking for a certain level of precision. I'm not saying people should use those maps to determine if something is on private residential property. I know those maps aren't perfect. But almost everywhere you look on any map, the property lines are a good distance away from the street. They may be a little of, but not in a way that they should all extend to the street. Therefor "(In the US,) private residential property (almost) always extends to the street" is a lie, and people should stop saying it.

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Let's keep it simple. If you cannot determine if something is on private residential property or not, then treat it as if it is on private residential property. If you cannot determine where the property line is, treat it as if it extends to the curb of the road. This is something we should treat with an abundance of caution instead of trying to split hairs so that we can ensure that a Wayspot is not on private residential property.

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