Please make all POI Pokestops/Gyms in PoGo

All Ingress Portals / POI should be Pokestops or Gyms.

Pokestop density is limited by S2 cell. There are currently more portals than pokestops & gyms.

This has created several perverse incentives.

People are moving POI to get more Pokestops. If they can move a portal a few meters, they wind up in another cell and become a new pokestop. There are even IITC plugins which show the cell boundaries to help players know when and where to move things. This degrades Niantic's database, because it no longer reflects reality. These edits are difficult to review, because without strong knowledge of the local area, it is difficult to determine exact placement, and it is difficult to tell the difference between a legitimate edit and a PoGo influenced edit. Making all POI stops/gyms would remove the incentive to submit false move edits.

Because stop/gym density is not very high, there is a feeling that there "aren't enough", and an incentive to submit dubious locations in the hopes that they will become stops/gyms. The silliness is extreme; one submitter argued that a pawn shop was not a "generic business", but actually "a cherished part of the community". While some may argue these are "easy reject agreements" for wayfarer reviewers, they are a waste of time. Making all POI stops/gyms would reduce the incentive to submit dubious candidates.

Because stop/gym density is not high, there is also an incentive to accept all nominations. As more PoGo players get access to Wayfarer, we're seeing a rise in acceptance of dubious candidates. Making all POI stops/gyms would reduce the incentive to accept dubious candidates.

There are other problems.

PoGo players are making duplicate submissions at a higher rate. Because they cannot see all POI, they submit portal-worthy locations not realizing they already exist in the database. This wastes submitter's time, as well as reviewer's time.

Niantic should seriously consider making all POI into PoGo stops/gyms.

I imagine a similar problem will occur with HPWU if/when that community gains traction and access to nominations (directly or indirectly via Ingress/PoGo).

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Comments

  • HighBastion-PGOHighBastion-PGO Posts: 8 ✭✭

    I agree with this request.

  • Hydracyan-INGHydracyan-ING Posts: 130 ✭✭✭

    The current spacing was selected as the best mix of distribution and ease of use without making the screen either to cluttered or to sparse.

    They didn't count on the ammount of abuse in edits that in many places make appears more pokéstops than pokémon at same time...

    I would simply give up this fight and provide what the users want.

    If they don't want to many stop/gym, they coud introduce something new, like berry bushs/piles/trees, or just some random token with no use else than mark that there is a inactive POI there. Using the poi density method from HPWU will ensure the abusers will acctually got punished (more poi means less resources).

  • Dazzz123456-PGODazzz123456-PGO Posts: 301 ✭✭✭

    I agree to increase the cell sizing. Even if there is something that that says about game play and gyms stops overlapping, the fact that stops can be moved directly on top of other stops makes this a pointless reason. It would also reduce the amount of edits in wayfarer and stop a lot of poi's being placed in the wrong place

  • Hydracyan-INGHydracyan-ING Posts: 130 ✭✭✭

    @GearGlider-PGO

    That way pokemon go reviewers will be less likely to move them.

    The reviewers move them to be more acurate with the real location, not to prevent they became pokeistop because "theire Evil"!

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My 2 suggestions would to make the cell sizes smaller, making more pokestops per area but not too much, maybe reduce them by 25% so that instead of say 20 by 30 is instead 15 by 22.5 size (picked random numbers). This way there will still be limits, but it will increase the amount of stops. I would also, if doing this, keep the gym cell the same size but up the number of stops required to make a gym, so 3 stops rather than 2, 8 rather than 6, that kind of number, so that gyms stay down. It might also stop cheating edits a bit as most older borderline portals might become stops


    As for duplication, simplest answer would be to have the waypoint show up on the map when submitting location, so people know what's there already

  • comicconartist-INGcomicconartist-ING Posts: 1 ✭✭

    I need God-mode instant create, removal, picture add and upgrade capabilities, salary and travel expenses and I'll take it from here

  • CodenameN1N-INGCodenameN1N-ING Posts: 19 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2020

    Idk my main problem if they did do this would be that would give tons of items. In ingress you can only hack a portal like 4 times plus some upgrades like 8 i think it is but still, they have more portals because they have more restrictions based on each portal, in pokemon go there is a timer yes but if you just sit somewhere you can get as many items as needed, and with every poi being a pokestop that would mean unrestricted fast items unless niantic nerfs the item amount but then that would create a problem for rural communities. Honestly its too much effort to balance things out like how its already balanced right now. Yes it would be nice having more pokestops and gyms but at what cost.


    Heck, make it so that wayspots that are too close to become pokestops instead become berry trees that go away once you click it, or rare pokemon spawns. That way pokemon go reviewers will be less likely to move them.

    I Would love this addition though, rather than nerfing items or spawns or adding spawns or just trying to create balance, this can add more visuals to the map, create less confusion, and creates less unnecessary submissions

  • GorillaSapiens-INGGorillaSapiens-ING Posts: 34 ✭✭✭

    @n1n an Ingress Portal with 4xVRMH can be hacked 34 times before burnout. It is unlikely anyone would do this, as the cooldown time is 5 minutes. It is not uncommon though to see 2xVRMH+2xVRHS, which gives 22 hacks with a cooldown time of 90 seconds. Small farms set up this way can be VERY productive.

  • CodenameN1N-INGCodenameN1N-ING Posts: 19 ✭✭✭

    Well i agree things can be farmed in ingress fast also but it seems Niantic will keep upgrading the Pokemon go inventories and Pokemon storage way further than with ingress. Granted there is more items not from pokestops but still. Even with the promo codes the items in pokemon go last way longer than in ingress where it can sometimes take tons of level 8 blasters if they keep recharging it and had good shields. What i am saying is in ingress the items are fast and don't last that long while Pokemon go they last a far bit longer for the most part, yeah you have exceptions, Pokemon go: Pokeballs, ingress: Power cubes.

  • PatrickNRW-PGOPatrickNRW-PGO Posts: 36 ✭✭

    yes plaease, i realy dont understand why some POIs are in ingress and some arend just because of the s2 rule. i understand that s2 cells are needed to calculate the amount of gyms, but why what can be a pokestop? the diagonal of a level 17 cell is about 100 meter, maybe a bit less but its near 100 meter. so in worst case if there are 2 legit portals that are put on the correct place only one of tham can be a pokestop even if they are near to 100 meters away and thats crazy

  • D0BERMAXX-INGD0BERMAXX-ING Posts: 20 ✭✭

    I agree with this suggestion, it's one solution to the increasing nomination abuse that's happening in wayfarer.

  • Quartzleo-PGOQuartzleo-PGO Posts: 38 Ambassador

    It would help a lot if the minimum could be upgraded to atleast two POI per level 17 cell on pokemon go, it would help with places with low amounts of pokestops and would increase the value of items like lures.

  • rangersbc72-PGOrangersbc72-PGO Posts: 62 ✭✭✭

    I really like the idea of somehow including these objects in PoGo. For balance reasons, they likely would have to involve introducing tiers of stops, that provide less benefit as density within a given unit area increases, but provide a greater diversity of "stuff" on the map to make it more interesting. Like a Type I stop would be a traditional stop, a Type II could be a receptacle where you can obtain only gifts, and a Type III stop could be where your buddy mon has a increased chance of of finding a souvenir. Allow players to vote on which object would make the most appropriate stop and delegate object tiers accordingly. This ideally would not affect Ingress.

  • SSSputnik-INGSSSputnik-ING Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

    Randomise gym creation?

  • ZeldaVV-PGOZeldaVV-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭✭

    Can someone find this interview? Whether this was before or after HPWU is vitally important.

  • Hydracyan-INGHydracyan-ING Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2020

    Pokémon have larger structures and a lot of random 3D objects with diferent poligons on screens (also know as pokémon), that's why is have less waypoints than ingress and wizard unite. If every portal became something, the pokémon map will became a mess. In some places cheatters managed to do that trought locations edtis and is just impossible to play without getting mad with the missclicks you do.

    s2 lv17 cells might no be the perfect way to do it, but was what they have at the time, maybe they change it someday to something better, like 30m or 40m rule. If it was up to me, I would add everything but do it like in WU, with diferent levels of waypoints, adding up things like a berry arbust or tree, that provide one berry once a day, or a itemball like in the games, to provide one random item. This way all POI would be avaiable, with different uses, and the more crowded they are, less usefull they became.

  • Hydracyan-INGHydracyan-ING Posts: 130 ✭✭✭

    Big difference is that Pokémon players have a lot more reasons and interest to create waypoints in wrong positions and made edits to wrong places. The distance rule in Ingress is different, it can have more portals already, so is rarer to see this happening.

    And the problem is that POGOers do it without thinking themselves as cheaters, considering that "if it is close to location is enough" becuase the 40m range of action, and thinking that Niantic is mad and Ingressers are evil.

  • patsufredo-PGOpatsufredo-PGO Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2020

    Neutral position here, what if Niantic let all Wayspots live in the game, in an area with already high density Wayspots?

    This one is a shopping mall I always go during Community Days and more, and previously the place has many Wayspots but fewer Pokestops because of cell rule, until a local group decided to move all Pokestops—to let remaining Wayspots live in Pokemon GO:

    And I'm still neither tried to play or report them, as the mall is still closed for public because of the pandemic.

    And back to the topic: would you able to play properly in the area with high density Wayspots like that, if Niantic let all Wayspots live in the game?

  • MissAleafar-PGOMissAleafar-PGO Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited June 2020

    i suggested this long time ago, even in ingress forums, guess what? they all just bashed with 1545874548751476876 excuses of why not, and i even posted once that this s2 rule harms more the niantic database than benefit, but i wasnt listened even in reddit...and here we are just took 2 years more or less to people to start agreeing with what i said

  • HINABITAMEU-INGHINABITAMEU-ING Posts: 133 ✭✭✭

    While the number of abused mobile applications is expected to decrease, we believe that unlimited gym creation (but not authorized) will not disappear completely as long as possible.

  • Stultusz-INGStultusz-ING Posts: 53 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2020

    This. A million times this.

    Having restrictions in the game seem sensible from a game design standpoint. But when edits and nominations with locations proxied bypass this restriction, this client-side protection is easily circumvented.

    All of this is made even worse when control of those restrictions (albeit limited by consensus) is given to the same players through the use of the tools at their disposal (Wayfarer) and knowledge of the internals being pretty much public (S2 cell system).

    The presence of an asymmetry between games quickly becomes evident and players see it in Wayfarer. This creates a looming sense of injustice and a very natural tendency to exploit the weak points of the system (in the control of the playerbase) to their advantage.

    These kinds of restrictions over open systems only work if there's active, stern punishment when there's POI abuse happening (see Google Maps, Google Street View, OSM). So far, Niantic has failed to keep up with the swarm of abuse being reported.

    A simple, no upkeep way to thwart most of this abuse is to remove the asymmetry all together: make all waypoints available to all games.

    Granted, there would still be abuse due to S14 cell gym hopping and bypassing the 20m restriction via edits, but this would at least fix the large majority of abuse and the overall sense of asymmetry and injustice.

  • DerWelfe2205-PGODerWelfe2205-PGO Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe Niantic also wants to have unused POI's in the backhand in case they ever decide to add a new kind of building to the game in the future (Like a Poke Center or whatever). Nonetheless the current system is less then ideal. I really like the idea to show people a map with all POI's before they submit stuff to prevent unnecessary duplicates.

  • Sugarstarzkill-PGOSugarstarzkill-PGO Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I daydreamed a use for POIs not visible in PoGo. I doubt it'll ever be implemented but I REALLY wish it would!


    My idea- sone new type of POI that appears intermittently. It could be a sort of super pokestop (name subject to debate lol). It could

    1. Give better items

    2. Give special research tasks that reward more desirable things/rare spawns

    3. Give gifts with better items you can send.

    4. Maybe a special rocket battle?

    I, for one, would actually go out and submit all the POIs I've not bothered with because of the L17 cell limitations.

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