Live in Wayfarer 3.1 is a new set of acceptance criteria! Please browse the information in this category with caution as it is in reference to the previous review guidelines. To learn more about the new criteria, see here: https://niantic.helpshift.com/a/wayfarer/
Painted Fire Hydrants
MatildaWolf-PGO
Posts: 23 ✭✭✭
Would painted fire hydrants fall under the "obstructs emergency services " category? I've always wondered and I've seen a few while reviewing lately. I don't want to review them wrong.
Apologies in advance if a similar question has been asked already. I tried to search the forum, but I keep getting a gateway timeout error.
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NianticCasey-ING
Posts: 538 admin
Hi folks,
Thanks for the interesting discussion, you always bring me the tough ones. I have to say that I lean towards these being emergency services. I look at these as similar to the painted garage door of a fire station for example. It may not always be in use, but if there's the possibility that you would impair emergency services if it were in use, it's ineligible.
Answers
I keep getting that if I search too.
Personally I'd okay it, it's unlikely that there would be a chance of blocking of emergency services as I'm guessing you'd be playing on the sidewalk?
Hang on for some more informed advice though, I'm pretty new here and we don't have fire hydrants.
Plus, if the fire hydrant is being used you probably shouldn't be in the area anyway, because, you know, there's an obvious fire hazard nearby. I'd be okay with it too. I'm of the inclination that any players would have cleared off upon seeing a fire - well before the hydrant is actually needed by the fire brigade - but then there are a lot of silly people out there, I guess...
I reject them on the bases of interfering with emergency service. It doesn't matter how unlikely a hydrant may be used for an emergency at any specific time, they are still part of the emergency response infrastructure.
I don't think it's appropriate and shouldn't be expanded upon because it's part of the emergency response infrastructure.
We should be more cognizant of the fact that we are borrowing from the real world POI.
Surely there should be a niantic guidance clarification somewhere. I want to know too.
While fire hydrants are part of the emergency response infrastructure. Our current guidelines on EMS is to waypoints that block the drive way of EMS locations/services. If a fire hydrant had safe pedestrian access next to it, it would not block any kind of EMS. Even in the event of an emergency a fire truck would drive up to the fire hydrant not walk up. If people are parking in front of a fire hydrant they are breaking the law. If they are on a sidewalk next to or behind a fire hydrant they are not impeding access to the emergency services infrastructure. So as long as their is adequate ped foot access(a requirement for a waypoint) it would still be eligible as an artistic installation.
While I understand the point about pedestrian access, I think the current guidance fits better with @TheFarix-PGO's understanding. I favor being cautious about accepting Emergency Service infrastructure, even if it is unlikely you would impede emergency response.
Many fire departments have sidewalks that cross the driveway of the emergency vehicles. Just like you won't be fined for standing beside a fire hydrant, you won't be fined for standing on the sidewalk that crosses the fire department's driveway. But we are still suppose to reject nominations in that zone even even if they are on the sidewalk, so why should a fire hydrant be any different?
I'll also point out that many players play by vehicle. The main reason why Wayspots are prohibited from interfering with fire stations isn't because pedestrians block the path of emergency vehicles, but because they will park their vehicles in a way that blocks the emergency vehicles. This is less of a problem when there is a vehicle parking beside of a fire hydrant, which you admit is illegal.
People playing in cars shouldn't be part of your consideration. Niantic repeatedly states that pedestrian access, "adventures in foot", etc are the focus. This kind of consideration is essentially making up your own criteria.
A monument at a fire station away from the driveway with Safe Pedestrian Access would be eligible as it would not interfere with the operation of the fire department.
Lets say you had a Fire Hydrant on the side of the road and on the otherside of the Hydrant is a sidewalk. People are allowed to stand on that sidewalk as they would not be blocking use to the Fire Hydrant. However if they parked in front of the Hydrant they would be blocking it, and in some situations illegally parked on a road.
You are justifying the rejection saying that people play in their cars. The game and how waypoints should be reviewed is based on Ped Foot Access not car access. Plenty of places that are perfectly fine to access by foot but not by car.
I always reject them due to obstructing emergency services. When it comes to public safety, I always approach nominations with caution. So, painted fire hydrants get an automatic 1* from me.
This argument comes up a lot and the arguments always seem to be 50/50. I think instead of arguing it might be worth getting @NianticCasey-ING to make a decision
Response or no response, it'll be almost useless and more dividing of the community until it gets placed in an actual guide criteria update.
Hi folks,
Thanks for the interesting discussion, you always bring me the tough ones. I have to say that I lean towards these being emergency services. I look at these as similar to the painted garage door of a fire station for example. It may not always be in use, but if there's the possibility that you would impair emergency services if it were in use, it's ineligible.
Respectfully, that's a terrible call.
The "painted garage door of a fire station" is a location that matters multiple times a day. A fire hydrant is a location that matters possibly never, and at most once or twice a year. And EMS vehicles stop wherever is most convenient for them when responding. By this logic, literally anywhere along a street or parking lot should be ineligible.
Respectfully, Casey’s call is the right one.
A painted fire garage door is in full service multiple times a day every day. A painted fire hydrant may never ever get used. Sorry but I strongly disagree @NianticCasey-ING
@NianticCasey-ING are we to reject a perfect 5* mural just because a fire hydrant happens to be 4ft from it? (Rhetorical, please don't say yes)
I think it was a good call. Frequency of use doesn't matter when dealing with obstructing emergency services. Fire stations here can go a week or more without a call, but that doesn't mean that @NianticCasey-ING's "mural on the garaged door" will become valid because of the infrequent use.
(I just posed something and the forum seems to have eaten it. Rewriting it, but I apologize if this shows up twice.)
@NianticCasey-ING Please allow me to explain why I don't believe fire hydrants block emergency services.
First, a fire station driveway is typically used multiple times per day, and unpredictably. A fire hydrant, on the other hand, probably gets used on average once every couple of years. If you're standing at a fire hydrant that needs to be used to put out a fire then you are probably standing very close to a burning building and you shouldn't be there anyway. If you don't figure that out before the fire trucks get there then the sirens will probably tip you off. And if you're still that dense, the nice men and women in uniform will use the loudspeaker to get your attention.
Second, if you block emergency services by standing within 40M of a fire hydrant then by extension it is also unsafe to stand at the plaque 3M away, the statue 10M away, or the mural 20M away. You would have to remove every waypoint that was within 40M of a fire hydrant. Reviewers would have to scan every submission to see if there was a fire hydrant within range. was part of a discussion about this elsewhere recently, and decided to do an experiment. I marked off a 1.2 square kilometer area of my neighborhood then use street view plus a walkthrough to identify every single fire hydrant within the area. I then went back to the intel map and drew 40M circles around each one. The result is that over 70% would have to be removed. The carnage is nine pieces of art, eight historical plaques, two fountains, two pieces of unique architecture. I did the same with an area of downtown Palo Alto and concluded that about 65% of those would need to be removed.
I believe that classifying fire hydrants as emergency services would do serious damage to your games. Dense urban areas where people hold community days, anomalies, and other events would lose the majority of their waypoints. The review process would slow significantly as every submission would have to be scanned to see if there was a fire hydrant within range. (I searched briefly but was unable to find a reliable database of fire hydrant locations in my area.) While the games wouldn't become completely unplayable you would find that certain areas did, and those would be the areas that are currently the most popular places for people to play.
I'm not able to post an image directly, apparently. Here is a screenshot of my neighborhood with the fire hydrants marked.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cx4jVbyFS3UDBkAn8
Yeah, if you post an image directly it gets relegated into the moderation process and takes several hours to get approved, upwards of a day. I just posted one with a decorated fire hydrant and alas, by the time it goes live the conversation has already ended.
In my time playing, I cant remember ever spinning a stop at a fire hydrant.
At least for walking by and spinning a stop, my opinion is the risk is low. However, if a fire hydrant becomes a locally prominent gym... Risk++
@rangersbc72-PGO I would imagine that it depends heavily on where you are. In the San Francisco bay area there are multiple streets where the city has commissioned local artists to decorate the fire hydrants. It's common to see dogs, all sorts of people, birds, R2D2, local sports teams, and abstract art. Ralston Avenue in Belmont California has tons, for example.
I love having them as portals because that makes me notice them.
There's an EMS response at the old folks home up the street at least once a week. Is the fountain in front in-eligible because there's an ambulance parked in front of it half the time? This is such an unreasonable argument from you and Casey and everyone else. If we're going to these absurd lengths to make sure a handful of inattentive players never interfere with EMS then we should remove every POI along any street. This isn't even exaggeration, it's literally the same thing you're arguing.
I will say that I think there needs to be more clarification on this particular subject. However, from my understanding at least, painted fire hydrants must be approved by the city/town in some way. They are also usually done for the community and therefore, could be qualified as a public art installation. A lot more consideration and thought is needed for this particular matter...
Maybe some sort of compromise would be to allow artsy hydrants as stops, but prohibit them from becoming prominent in-game objects, like gyms, that increase probability of congregation. In my experience, players typically dont loiter by a given stop, but the nature of gyms promote loitering. @Hosette-ING described some fine hydrants that it would be a shame if they were totally removed.
My major risk consideration would be raids (or Ingress equivalent) occurring at fire hydrants. This is less of a issue in urban areas, where players predominantly walk, and more of an issue where POI density is lower. Further complicating this, these hydrants plausibly are predominantly located in urban areas. I've never seen one in suburbia.
We need to make a clear distinction somewhere.
That is the decision not to approve objects related to police and fire that require an emergency response, and I respect that.
That was my take on it as well.
To everyone who starts talking about things surrounding fire hydrants: that is not the discussion. The discussion is the fire hydrant itself, a tool to be used by emergency services.
If it's prohibited for cars to park next to it, it make sense not to promote crowd gatherings around ti either.
Frequency of use doesn't negate that it is still going to be used in emergency services.
Yes, people may or may not move out if the way if there's a fire or it needs to be used, but what about the players that are in cars, and parked up next to it? What if they don't get out of the way quick enough? They're still going to be obstructing emergency services.
This change in criteria also doesn't mean existing wayspots have to be removed, unless NIA specifically say so, and even then, they're going to be largely relying on the honesty of the player base, and given how some groups discourage any sort of wayspot removal, chances are players won't put in the removal requests.
Either way, Casey has spoken on the matter, and whether we agree with it or not, painted fire hydrants aren't eligible.