Bike Hire Points

Hi everyone,

I live in a city which offers city bike hire and there are points dotted around the city. I'd noticed that none of these were Wayspots yet so have nominated a few that I've walked past. For me, they're nailed on to be Wayspots as they fit perfectly in the 'place to exercise' criteria, and plus they're accompanied with a big sign with information about the area which can be a 'place to explore'. They also are deliberately located in places where people can gather as room is needed to wait, pay for and hire the bikes. However, each of these keep being rejected for completely different and increasing random reasons. Is there a legitimate reason these should be rejected? The last one was for a 'fake nomination' despite the bike hire point being clearly visible on both the satellite image and Streetview, and as such I don't think I'm able to appeal.

Thanks a lot, and sorry if this has been covered several months back - I'm fairly new to the forum!

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Comments

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They used to be considered ineligible as mass produced infrastructure under the old criteria in the same way bus stops were.

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They still are. But also, bike shares are more about providing public transit to remove the need for cars than promoting exercise.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 298 ✭✭✭

    I've seen very mixed and zealous opinions, but I'd consider them a great POI to encourage exercise the same as a fitness station, sports field, or any other outdoor sport equipment hire (e.g: kayaks, etc) 🤷‍♀️

    Obviously only the stand as a whole should qualify.

    I've seen them compared with a bike rack and I think that's just silly, because that is more like a parking space, not a piece of fitness equipment available for public use.

    But hey, that's just my opinion and I'm sure there's plenty of people waiting in the wings to start shrieking about how they're "generic" and "mass-produced", despite that not being a stand-alone rejection reason and the blatant contradiction to that way of thinking with half the honeypot submissions also technically being both of those things 😬🙄

  • TheFarix-PGOTheFarix-PGO Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do not view bike share stations as promoting exercise any more than a sidewalk promotes exercise or a sporting goods store (or bike shop) promotes exercise. Just because they sell or rent equipment doesn't make them into great places to exercise. Something that promotes an activity and a place where you go to do that activity are two different things. And the eligibility criterion is very much about the latter and not the former. Bike shares are set up to create an alternative means of transportation if you do not have or do not want to use a vehicle. I would not go to a bike share station to exercise. I would go to a bike station if I was looking for a way to go from point A to point B without having to deal with the burden of a vehicle.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 298 ✭✭✭

    😅

    I think it's important to remember that there may be regional/cultural differences informing different opinions here.

    To me, they're more of a tourist thing that absolutely encourages both exercise and exploration. It's something people engage with for more leisurely enjoyment, rather than simply an obligatory transit option.

    Having said that, they're also not something we have in my particular community in that way and, due to the longer distances, I can't imagine many people in the ones that do choosing them purely as a convenience over "the burden of a vehicle" when those areas that do have them also have much more efficient, easier, and often free public transport options 🤷‍♀️

  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭

    Completely agree. If the criteria were about “encouraging” exercise we’d have shoe store that sell running shoes or the examples you gave. The criteria are “a great place to” exercise. And incidentally, we had these bike share stations in our downtown, but they’ve all been replaced by electric scooter stations now. Guess no one really wanted to exercise to get between locations.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 298 ✭✭✭

    Sorry to be confrontational, but that literally is exactly what they explicitly said it's about when they did the criteria refresh 😅

    "Niantic’s mission is to build products that encourage us to explore the world, exercise and be social with each other"


  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, Niantic wishes to build games that encourage us to exercise…. And they do so by having games that identify “great places” to do those things. I am sorry, but your argument just doesn’t negate the actual eligibility criteria:

    A great place for exploration

    A great place for exercise

    A great place to be social with others

    copied directly from the criteria page

    https://wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/new/criteria/eligibility

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 298 ✭✭✭

    Ok... That's kind of incongruent with your first comment... My point was that these words are interchangeable and all equate to the same thing, yours still seems to be that they're not, or are only so far as it suits your agenda? 🤔🤯

    It's all just slight variations in wording that you're choosing to take in the most literal way possible, with apparently no real consideration of "the spirit" of it 🤷‍♀️

    Semantics is what this community seems to spend most of its time arguing circles around, though, until anybody with any diversity of viewpoint or understanding gets bored with it and bails 🤷‍♀️

    It's like a toxic little echo chamber where very little ever resolves except the rare time somebody has the stamina to keep arguing their point for literally years and stirring up enough **** that it eventually has to be mediated by Niantic (case in point is military bases) 🤦‍♀️

  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2023

    But, respectfully, I do disagree with your interpretation. I am not trying to attack (toxic), but rather voice a dissenting opinion. The issue is that the words are not in fact interchangeable and actually mean very different things.

    The debates lie in the various interpretations of the “spirit” of the words. It would seem by reading all the various changes that have occurred through time that the criteria of being a great place to exercise, explore or socialize have remained consistent. I think TheFarix-PGO really nailed the explanation.

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Indeed, the words are not interchangeable. If I'm looking for a "great place to play basketball," and you direct me to the sporting goods store down the street, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 2,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it's important to include context. In some places these hire points might be expected to be used by locals and no different than a bus stop. But jn other places they may be expected to be used by tourists (have a map of the area and information on what can be found). In Glasgow some of the points fall into the first category, but I k ow several points are placed so tourists can use them to get around and view the area. But I've also been to Falkirk where the bike points I found had the map amd info which to me means they want people to use them to explore the area.


    On a personal note, I would say they do encourage exercise, cycling is exercise, there's no other way to look at it, so I see them as OK, I don't see them as ineligible. They are not similar to bus stops or sports shops imo, I think rjats just being disingenuous. Most cities put them on to encourage exercise

  • SeaprincessHNB-PGOSeaprincessHNB-PGO Posts: 1,533 Ambassador

    I would definitely judge each one independently based on how its presented in the submission. I don't think they can be sorted categorically as either eligible nor ineligible.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 298 ✭✭✭

    It's all about context and interpretation and I've simply stated that, in all context provided, Niantic has stated their mission and intent with both wordings.

    I don't think it made sense to single out "encouraging" in that way to begin with and I just thought it was kind of funny given that they have, in fact, worded it exactly that way on several occasions.

    Sometimes something that does indeed encourage an activity, rather than being the express location for it, is in fact eligible, as stated by Niantic. So in respect to Wayfarer, both wordings denote potentially valid things/places and are interchangeable.

    On context and more semantics: Those examples aren't great anyway, and at worst are clear misrepresentations of the point, on the opposite extreme of interpretation; which I also wouldn't agree with. Dichotomous reasoning is not conducive to good reviewing behaviour.

    I never said I thought they were all categorically eligible, but to play devil's advocate, a bike by it's very nature is a great place to exercise (what else are you gonna do with it? It doesn't matter if it's with active or passive intent, it's still a great place exercise). Those stations encourage people to exercise by providing easy and convenient access to the equipment with which to do so. How is that any different to a fitness station or gym? 🤷‍♀️

    If your argument is that the station's existence is not forcing anybody who interacts with the wayspot to use it, then the exact same can be said for gyms, fitness stations, sports fields, and pretty much anything else in the database, so I really fail to see the distinction here 🤷‍♀️

    Simply selling items isn't enough, obviously, and I certainly never implied it was. A shoe store sells things to cover your feet and, in the absence of any particular sports programs, it does not actively encourage anything other than buying them. You could then potentially use them to jog, but you could just as easily throw them in the bottom of your wardrobe and forget them, give them away as a gift, or only wear them out to a club a few times (but claiming that shoe stores encourage socialising because of this would be an equally ludicrous exaggeration) 😅

    Sporting good stores and sidewalks CAN promote exercise, and for the purposes of Wayfarer it again comes down to context. They are not automatically eligible or ineligible. If the sidewalk has named trail signage, that signage is an acceptable placemarker for the trail that uses that sidewalk, and is considered a great place to exercise and explore. A sports store that does workshops or events that actively engage people to learn technique and/or actually participate in the activities are eligible and considered great places to exercise or encourage it, as well as to explore (as far as learning new skills).

    This is the exact reason Niantic does not want categorical rejections. Nonetheless, they clearly live on in the minds of many Wayfarers 🤷‍♀️

    It really shouldn't be so hard to stop fixating on silly minor wording variations to think more holistically about these things, as intended. I acknowledge that Niantic have certainly made it difficult for people with certain fixed mindsets to get past, though 🤦‍♀️

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had a look at the bike hire stand in my town this morning. Now the bikes are branded with the tourist initiative 'Visit...' text and logo so they're clearly designed for tourists to use to explore the town. There's also a map of the town showing historic/notable places, but the bike stand is the generic bent metal tubes with nothing on them. In this case I felt the map would be perfectly good as a nomination in itself, obviously the bikes are temporary and I couldn't really rate the stand as eligible. If the stand had some form of text or logo linking to tourism I could score it with a low star rating. If someone nominated the map and stand as one point of interest it gets trickier...

  • The26thDoctor-PGOThe26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Apologies for the the digression...

    Have you seen this in game? Up near The Brents I think.


  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes - 2 mins walk from me - it's in the game. It's identical to one that used to be situated a few miles up the road in Birchington and shows in a few old postcards. I tried looking up it's history, but got nowhere beyond that it was used in later years for the boatyard that occupied the site. Whether it was originally located in Faversham or not I don't know, but it's definitely a former police box.

  • The26thDoctor-PGOThe26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you!

    I know the only remaining Sheffield green box doesn't show in Go and the Kent Police Museum one was returned to Glasgow a few years back I think but wasn't sure if the ex Birchington box appears in game.


    Is one of the few places with any info.

    Birchington


    And the same type in Margate

    Thanks for helping, apologies for sending everyone else to sleep!

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Its the same model as the Birchington and Margate boxes but as far as I could tell it's not either of those reinstalled. I tried speaking to people who had been working on what was the boatbuilders in the 1950s but they couldn't remember when it arrived or where from, I even contacted the Kent Police Museum, but they had no details on any of the concrete boxes. The 'lamp' is a replacement, but there's evidence of the old phone recess. Repainted a few year's back.

  • The26thDoctor-PGOThe26thDoctor-PGO Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks, great info.

    It's odd that their history just seems to be lost in time.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nothing in 'The rise and fall of the police box' either - I pretty much tried every avenue I could think of.

  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2023

    @thenamelesskath-PGO Again, respectfully, my argument is not “silly minor wording variations” and those who disagree should not be unfairly categorized as “certain fixed mindsets to get past, though.” The arguments put forward are nuanced and critical. Where you see two words as synonyms (to encourage something and to be something), I think the two concepts are distinctly different. At no point did anyone say something is categorically ineligible because of what it is, it is ineligible if it doesn’t meet one of the three eligibility criteria. I am arguing that the POI should meet one of the three criteria and your arguing that the criteria be expanded to include things that “promote” the criteria.

    it’s ok to have differing opinions without calling people silly or with a “fixed mindset.”

  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭

    Also, “If your argument is that the station's existence is not forcing anybody who interacts with the wayspot to use it, then the exact same can be said for gyms, fitness stations, sports fields, and pretty much anything else in the database, so I really fail to see the distinction here”

    that argument was never out forward by anyone. A bike stand is not a great place to exercise, whereas gyms, fitness stations, and sports absolutely can be. They aren’t equivalent.

  • thenamelesskath-PGOthenamelesskath-PGO Posts: 298 ✭✭✭

    You're taking some of what I've said out of context to distort the meaning considerably, particularly to insinuate that personal attacks were made. This signals to me that this is not a productive discussion, so I won't keep adding fuel to the dumpster fire by making any further points or providing material to support my point 🚮🤷‍♀️

    However, to clarify what I did say:

    I'm not arguing for expansion of anything, just a better and fairer understanding of the criteria as they've been presented and discussed by Niantic since the refresh. Since you don't seem willing to acknowledge the greater context provided by the myriad of other Niantic material and statements, it's probably a lost cause to continue explaining it.

    Suffice to say that I think people should be more willing to consider some of these things in a different light, if presented, and I disagree that these never meet criteria and should be categorically rejected 🫡

  • Leedle95-PGOLeedle95-PGO Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭

    I agree, you’re just not getting my points, so no need to keep it going. Best of luck.

  • Thanks everyone for the comments, the first comment regarding the mass produced aspect was certainly something I hadn't but should have considered. It's not a reason that's been given by the reviewers to my nominations, but that's another issue I suppose!

    I seem to have started a debate here regarding whether bike hire stations are a place to exercise or explore. The bike hire stations that I suggest include a map and information about the area (which I use as the Wayspot location in my nominations), which I felt made them a stronger case for them to be Wayspots under the exploration criteria. In my city, they're used by both locals and tourists, the plan when they were introduced were to get people out of their cars and to do some exercise and they've been very successful with that - I'd say that they certainly do promote exercise, but the question is whether the location itself is a place to exercise. I'd consider it different to the argument about going to a sport shop, because generally the exercise and exploring both immediately start from the bike hire location. Nevertheless, I admit that you do then cycle away from it towards something nicer. It would be very useful for an official confirmation about this because there's a lot of disagreement and personally I now wouldn't know what to do if reviewing one.

  • rufoushumming-PGOrufoushumming-PGO Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DrSimon1989-PGO Case by case basis. Most modern ones are electric bikes and scooters. I would reject. But some meet the explore option as some councils install them for tourists to get around town.....

    But I have one in my local park. That is a POI. Big bike hire place. Non Electric. For cycling around the park (4K route) Exercise and Explore.

    My suggestion is this

    Make the nomination. Do NOT submit at once. Click submit later. Go home. Open wayfarer . Click Contributions. Now upload nomination. Refresh contributions page. It may take a few minutes to appear. Once you see it open the nomination up. Place the nomination on HOLD. Edit the text/description and information text to ju ju up the nominations. Leave on hold and copy and paste (yes copy and paste / images etc) to nomination improvement. It may take a while to appear as it may need to be reviewed. And then ask how can I improve.

    State the explore - in supporting include links to explore routes on line etc whatever supporting information you have. Photo to not have any part of a body in it. Try to get map in photo.

    Then go from there.

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